2nd UU and 2nd UB for DoC

I support the idea of a Chinese junk or treasure ship as UU.
Zheng He led the greatest naval exploration before the Era of Colonization.
My idea:
Treasure Ship/Chinese Junk
Requires Astronomy, reclaces Galleon
Strength:7:strength:
Movement:3:move:
Cargo Space:4
Cost:160:hammers:

Due to their enormous size they would require much more materials to build, they were also more powerful than galleon or any ship at that time
 
merijn_v1 said:
The Ma can easily replace the Knight. The Knight may not be a ranged unit, but that doesn't mean that the Ma automatically is too. Look at the Camel Archer. That one also replaces the Knight and it's also ranged.
Click to expand...
Indeed. The Keshik is also a mounted archer. But

(1) I wish to see the Ma alongside Knights as a combination of light and heavy cavalry. In general I feel light cavalry is underrepresented in DoC.

(2) If it does replace Knights it would have been too powerful (vs. barb Horse Archers, because of their early availability) and/or too weak (vs. Keshiks, because you can't build Knights).
 
Civciv5 said:
I support the idea of a Chinese junk or treasure ship as UU.
Zheng He led the greatest naval exploration before the Era of Colonization.
My idea:
Treasure Ship/Chinese Junk
Requires Astronomy, reclaces Galleon
Strength:7:strength:
Movement:3:move:
Cargo Space:4
Cost:160:hammers:

Due to their enormous size they would require much more materials to build, they were also more powerful than galleon or any ship at that time
Click to expand...
Once again, this is pointless, because:

(1) A properly played China will tech to Astronomy centuries before any other civs do. You will have Galleons against Galleys and Tiremes of other civs. This already perfectly represents Treasure Ships. Whether your Galleons have strength of 7, 6, 5, or 4 vs. Galleys/Tiremes hardly matter, as you will crush them anyway.

(2) Cargo Space/Cost don't matter. China in Renaissance Era will be building mostly Research in its top production cities anyway - you can build as many galleons as you want/need.

Last but not least, accounts of the size of treasure ships are greatly exaggerated. Many of them exceed what is physically possible for wooden ships.

Moreover, if you think Treasure Ships are more powerful than 17th~18th century European vessels such as the East Indiaman or the Frigate, you are sadly mistaken.
 
iOnlySignIn said:
Once again, this is pointless, because:

(1) A properly played China will tech to Astronomy centuries before any other civs do. You will have Galleons against Galleys and Tiremes of other civs. This already perfectly represents Treasure Ships. Whether your Galleons have strength of 7, 6, 5, or 4 vs. Galleys/Tiremes hardly matter, as you will crush them anyway.

(2) Cargo Space/Cost don't matter. China in Renaissance Era will be building mostly Research in its top production cities anyway - you can build as many galleons as you want/need.

Last but not least, accounts of the size of treasure ships are greatly exaggerated. Many of them exceed what is physically possible for wooden ships.

Moreover, if you think Treasure Ships are more powerful than 17th~18th century European vessels such as the East Indiaman or the Frigate, you are sadly mistaken.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree on the STR issue.
I loathe having to tech Chemistry for Frigates to protect my Galleons.
At 6 STR, it makes a fight against a Privateer an even trade.
At which point, it's more of a fair bet to go unescorted,
saving you Hammers for other more essential projects.
Privateers spawn very quickly after the Galleons are up.
They will often spawn before Chemistry is available as well.
This may not seem as relevant to you, but I have to
stick with the Game Speed argument again with this particular issue.

Also, Cargo space does matter. Typically, when setting up a colony,
you have to drop a Settler, a Musketman/Heavy Swordsman and a Worker.
This makes colony development super slow. With the extra cargo space,
I can opt to add an extra Worker to have my workable tiles online quicker,
or drop a Missionary to help my Culture spread.
 
Tomorrow's Dawn said:
I have to disagree on the STR issue.
I loathe having to tech Chemistry for Frigates to protect my Galleons.
At 6 STR, it makes a fight against a Privateer an even trade.
At which point, it's more of a fair bet to go unescorted,
saving you Hammers for other more essential projects.
Privateers spawn very quickly after the Galleons are up.
They will often spawn before Chemistry is available as well.
Click to expand...
That is a question of Barbs, not one of Chinese (or any civ's) UB.

Barb Privateers simply should not spawn before any civ in the world has teched to Military Science (Frigate is available with MS, not Chemistry in DoC), or even Astronomy. It makes no sense for Barbs to be more advanced than the most advanced civilizations on earth.

Also, Cargo space does matter. Typically, when setting up a colony,
you have to drop a Settler, a Musketman/Heavy Swordsman and a Worker.
This makes colony development super slow. With the extra cargo space,
I can opt to add an extra Worker to have my workable tiles online quicker,
or drop a Missionary to help my Culture spread.
Click to expand...
That is an argument that can be made for England, Portugal, and pretty much anyone that isn't the Dutch.

And the answer is simple: Build more Galleons. That's what you're supposed to do - especially if you're China since you have a massive infrastructure/production advantage over everyone else.

The Dutch get the special treatment of East Indiaman because of their super-late start time - they need a more effective Galleon replacement to achieve their UHVs. China (or England, or Portugal) does not.

Take a historical example: Koxinga's Invasion of Taiwan. Koxinga had a fleet of several hundred war ships to the Dutch's meager 10. And Koxinga wasn't even the central authority of China at the time - he's a pirate which had only local influence.

TL;DR: Fix Barb Privateers. Build more Galleons like you're supposed to.
 
Also, having Privateers harassing your Galleons and annoying you is kind of the point. Because otherwise there is little incentive to build Frigates, as the AIs can't offer effective naval resistance (especially you set up a fleet of Privateers).

The sad, but necessary truth is that the only way for the game to offer effective naval resistance at the moment is through OP, anachronistic Privateers.

Is it a necessary evil? I think it can be considered so. Because otherwise you roam the oceans for free with your Galleons because you teched to Astronomy centuries before everyone else (for example in the 1200s). How realistic is that? Naval exploration and colonization are supposed to be adventures fraught with risks (often in the form of sudden unpleasant death), instead of pleasure voyages.
 
V0.1 of the 2nd UB modcomp is launched. Grab it from the 2nd post.

Some notes:
It's only available for the regular download or SVN rev. 450 (No other SVN version)
It requires the 2nd UU modcomp. It won't work without it.
 
I just played and won games with Rome, Mali, Babylon, and Egypt with the 2 UU patch.

Rome- I really liked the Balista. It helps you focus on upgrading your Legions rather than using them as fodder. They provide key support in certain sieges. Its a good fit for Roman game.

Mali- Caravans are bit reminiscent of Civ II. I don't hate that. I build them non stop in Timbuktu after Sankore. I played Mali before a lot of the changes, and I must say Mali is a lot more fun to play now. Especially with the Caravans, good job!

Babylon- A stronger potential for siege warfare exists in Babylon, but I will be honest I dont see how you use this unit much. I don't think there are a lot of units that would be used by Babylon generally for the UHV. Why didn't we go for Vultures? I could see Babylon using a combination of both the Archers and Vultures in Defense against the Greeks/Roman/Persians.

Egypt- The new axemen are a good counter to both the spawning of Greek and Roman armies in Egyptian lands later on. While I don't generally build Chariots with Egypt, the new axemen though were essential for my defense.

I look forward to trying others, I'll post more later.
 
Ballazic said:
Babylon- A stronger potential for siege warfare exists in Babylon, but I will be honest I dont see how you use this unit much. I don't think there are a lot of units that would be used by Babylon generally for the UHV. Why didn't we go for Vultures? I could see Babylon using a combination of both the Archers and Vultures in Defense against the Greeks/Roman/Persians.
Click to expand...

A very simple reason I didn't concider the Vulture. I just didn't think of it. :blush:
To let it represent the Sumerians, I think it has to replace the Warrior, as it should come very early. (To represent the Sumerians properly) But then I'm afraid it's useless, because it's obselete by the time you can use it.

Also, the UU doesn't necessarily have to be useful for their UHV (although I like it when it does). For instance, the Viking Karolin isn't really needed for their UHV. But it still is relevant in the game, because it represents the Swedish.
In the case of Babylonia, it's even harder to find an UU that is linked to their UHV, because the UHV is over very quickly.


I'm glad you like my modmodcomp.
 
merijn_v1 said:
For now, I have them included. If you have a better suggestion please say it. This is the best suggestion I have now.
And if only the name is unhistorical, the name could be changed, while the unit remains the same.

BTW, it doesn't really fight, as replaces the Explorer. So it can only defend itself.

@ Leoreth
Thanks. Does it add 39 new buildings or 41? (It should be 39. I'm not sure if you read the post)
Click to expand...

Umm, well; I haven't DL'd the modmod yet but if I might, I would like to suggest either using the Slinger (VD mod uses them as a re-skinned Incan archer) or as a Liwi Warrior (A warrior using boleadoras, some stones attached with ropes; meant to be thrown). for the skin of the Liwi warrior you could use the existing VD Slinger and enlarge a bit their slingshot, and make it look like they are throwing it. I dunno :)

For the UB, I would recommend using the tambos; they were like resupplying points for both the Incan army and their scouts. Could act as replacement for umm... Courthouses? it could work as tambos were used not only for storing food, but also weapons and quipus; which worked as official accounting ledgers.

Still it's your modmod; so cheers mate :D
 
Byzantine UU:

UU: Thematic Infantry
Replaces Swordsman
STR: 7
Movement: 2
Cost: 120 Hammers

The Byzantine Empire relied on "themes", a sort of province/state of the Empire. Each theme had a highly versatile mobile army good for both defense and invasion. During the Islamic invasions, it was the thematic infantry and cavalry that beat back the Muslims. It was the thematic infantry and cavalry that kept the empire alive by occupying every hilltop in Asia and never letting the Arab armies get a chance to carry out protracted sieges or stay for too long as their supply lines were at risk.

They were a lot more important than they seem.
 
Wondering Kid said:
Umm, well; I haven't DL'd the modmod yet but if I might, I would like to suggest either using the Slinger (VD mod uses them as a re-skinned Incan archer) or as a Liwi Warrior (A warrior using boleadoras, some stones attached with ropes; meant to be thrown). for the skin of the Liwi warrior you could use the existing VD Slinger and enlarge a bit their slingshot, and make it look like they are throwing it. I dunno :)

For the UB, I would recommend using the tambos; they were like resupplying points for both the Incan army and their scouts. Could act as replacement for umm... Courthouses? it could work as tambos were used not only for storing food, but also weapons and quipus; which worked as official accounting ledgers.

Still it's your modmod; so cheers mate :D
Click to expand...

In the spreadsheet in the 2nd post of this thread, you can also see a changelog. You can see that I changed the Incan 2nd UU from Chasquis to Slinger. ;)
Currently, it replaces the Longbowman. It comes earlier, but has only 5 strength. It also gets the Guerilla I promotion.

I like the suggestion, but IMO, there are currently enough Courthouse UB. I want to have some diversity in the UB, not that they all replace the same building. And as I think the Stonecutter is a nice UB for them, I think I will keep it.

Bamboozle said:
Byzantine UU:

UU: Thematic Infantry
Replaces Swordsman
STR: 7
Movement: 2
Cost: 120 Hammers

The Byzantine Empire relied on "themes", a sort of province/state of the Empire. Each theme had a highly versatile mobile army good for both defense and invasion. During the Islamic invasions, it was the thematic infantry and cavalry that beat back the Muslims. It was the thematic infantry and cavalry that kept the empire alive by occupying every hilltop in Asia and never letting the Arab armies get a chance to carry out protracted sieges or stay for too long as their supply lines were at risk.

They were a lot more important than they seem.
Click to expand...

My concerns about this is that the Swordsman is almost obselete by the time they can really make use of it. This could be a false thought however.
And there are already a lot of Heavy Swordsman UU. I want some diversity in the UU and that they don't all replace the same unit.
 
Tagmata is iconic and perfect for the Byzantium 2nd UU. I use it as a 2nd UU in RFCE (personal modification).

It could be an early Pikeman (w/ Machinery instead of Engineering) instead of a Spearman though.
 
merijn_v1 said:
In the spreadsheet in the 2nd post of this thread, you can also see a changelog. You can see that I changed the Incan 2nd UU from Chasquis to Slinger. ;)
Currently, it replaces the Longbowman. It comes earlier, but has only 5 strength. It also gets the Guerilla I promotion.

I like the suggestion, but IMO, there are currently enough Courthouse UB. I want to have some diversity in the UB, not that they all replace the same building. And as I think the Stonecutter is a nice UB for them, I think I will keep it.



My concerns about this is that the Swordsman is almost obselete by the time they can really make use of it. This could be a false thought however.
And there are already a lot of Heavy Swordsman UU. I want some diversity in the UU and that they don't all replace the same unit.
Click to expand...

Stonecutter sounds great! Even now, historians can't quite fully understand how they managed to use stone for building; since they lacked several "essential" instruments that were introduced by the Europeans. I guess I'mma DL the modmod :D (even though I rarely play Incan Civ XD)
 
I'm having some problems getting this modmodmod to run properly. Hopefully someone can help me.

I am running DoC 1.10 with VD and Blue Marble already installed.

I have extracted the UU and UB (in that order) files to my "RFC Dawn of Civilization" folder.

The game runs fine. The new units are visible in the civilopedia, the appropriate UHV's are changed, etc.

The only problem is that I cannot actually build the units. My game as Rome still had Catapults and Barracks, for instance.

Has anyone experienced similar problems, or does anybody have a solution?
 
I think the problems is the VD.
I'm afraid the modmodcomps aren't compatible with that.

Can someone send me the CivilizationInfo.xml from VD (Assets/XML/Civilizations/). That very likely caused the problem. I pretty sure I can make it VD compatible.
 
This one? :)
 

Attachments

If you replace the VD_CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml with the file in the package, the modmodcomp should be compatible with VD.

Unzip the file in the RFC DoC folder. It should replace 2 file. Say yes to that.
(If it doesn't replace anything, you unpacked it in the wrong place.

NOTE: Only if you have both modcomps installed.
 
It's been on my mind for awhile, but it doesn't really jive well with me to call the Chinese cavalry UU a "Ma".

After all, it just simply means Horse.

I'd like to recommend replacing the name as "Chinese Cataphract" if that's not too long; as cataphract style cavalry was the common heavy cavalry type in China for quite some time.
 
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