SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

soundjata · Dec 22, 2012

@ Shaka. Ok noted the low interest on fuzzing with Qin.
And yes I forgot Broadway, Hollywood, RNR, and also broadcast tower (or eiffel meh). All these make cultural VC all the more easier in my book.

I still need some indications on the war vs. SB. What's the point exactly?

Back to GP farming.
If I understand well, we only need 1 more non GS great person to allow for the last GA.

Or do we plan on finishing after T209+25?
- If yes, we might want another GA, which costs 4 GP of different kind and is detrimental to Artist bombs.
- If no, what's the point of farming anything else but artists?

OH YES bulbing. Any GP type will bulb FT eventually.
But some kind of GP lead us to wrong parts of the tech tree. Let's see:

Priest: Check. Bulbs nothing but FT after divine right.
Artist: Check. Bulbs all sort of good stuff on the way to computers. then bulbs robotics, which we don't need but at that time we'll bomb.
Scientist: good until satellite. Not good after: will bulb laser, which we don't need.
Merchant: good till FT.
Engineer: good until Plastic. Then will bulb ecology, which we don't need.

My conclusion:
Next turn we can assign all kind of specialists in our GP farms, but need to keep pure Artists for the bombs.
As we are not going to use Caste system and pacifism too soon I guess we can't generate more than 6 or 7 GP by T209+25. As we need 3 to 5 bombs, that is still not many non artists.

Time for a spreadsheet

This is my gaming machine man. No excel. Brrr. I hate using my working laptop on the weekend

BRB

kossin · Dec 22, 2012

Duckweed said:
Did not look into the city since I just had a glance of the game and heard the fan was running crazily. I had some serious problems of my desktop, especially every time after I updated the windows system. I'm still hesitating to reinstall the system as there are so many other things to be reinstalled as well.

Edit: Did a quick check, Tolosa has produced MIE for 1 turn, so it should be whipped this turn so that it can completes another MIE next turn.

Oh geesh you're right. (again)
Definitely whip it then, we'll get rid of the Spy this way :lol:

We should get 61 OF which will allow for several 1-turn builds, which is what we want.

soundjata said:
After looking at the save, I'd like to discuss the final term strategy. Excuse me if it is not an issue for you

Ideally, we'd want to finish in the frame of 25 turns (1t+24t GA)

Cultural cities. Paris and Orleans require ~ 40.000 CP.
Paris is going slower due to no hermitage. In a few turns, it will have ~ 200 base culture and 400% multipliers.
8,000 x 25 = 20,000. Paris requires 4 artists bombs in 25 turns.
Orleans might require 2 artists bombs, that's 6.

Add the 3 GP we need for the next GA, that's 9 GP

The 9th GP is 2800 points, which is 800 points in Orleans (3.5 multiplier)
Orleans can work 14 specialists without starving. 14x3 = 42, which is compatible with the date.
We should farm everything over in Orleans to allow for 18 specialists (size 25). Keep in mind that Orleans will always have a % of GM though so I shouldn't play those turns

We need 8 other GP farms, which can be discussed later.

Now research. Are we able to research FT1 in 24 turns?
We lack 13 essential techs on the way to FT1: AL, combus, elect, flight, refridg, radio, computer, satell, flight, stealth, superc, gen, FT1.

Can we research FT1 in 2 turns eventually? It's 15,800 beakers.
We have ~400 pop at the moment. They can work 1200 hammers + 1000 from mining inc. and produce 4,400 b/turn with 100% multiplier.
There are 24 techs left + Communism + Mass Media (possibly) ... i.e. earliest we can win is in 25~26 turns. T240 seems more and more likely at this point.

Research still seems limiting compared with legendary cities.

What is the trick to the final research boost

Edit: I forgot the growth potential of our cities.
400 pop can easily become 1200 pop due to sushi.
No problem then, very doable.

Edit2: I made a mistake since I assumed wrongly we need 3 GP for the next GA. It's 2 and the culture victory/GP farming seems more and more like a piece of cake!

Hence the priorities are:
1. Spread Sushi. 30 cities to go.
2. Spread Mining. 30 cities to go.
48 cities
3. Build production and science multipliers.
4. Farm a couple of non scientists GP for the last GA.
Just 1, we'll have the GSpy from Communism.
5. Farm great artists.
Insert TAO Temples.

Due to the low priority of GP farming, I believe we can delay the switch to caste/pacifism to the last possible moment.
We have yet to do a GPP plan, I wouldn't be so certain we can delay Pacifism too much.

Next post on war.

soundjata said:
2 cities to be taken imo:

Chakoia for the SM.
Yes.
Mecca for the Hindu shrine.
Not sure, by the time we're done with SB, there'll be around 15~20 turns left to the game. Mecca likely takes 10 turns to come out of Revolt, meaning we get it for maybe 5 turns... losing all the traderoutes from Saladin. (~25C per turn)
No capitulation as this would lead to domination victory most probably.
We can capitulate SB, well only add maybe 7~8% to our total land and we can liberate cities to avoid crossing limit. We need votes that aren't ours anyway. (max. 69.9% of votes can be ours iIrc)

Whatya think?

Edit: the net gain from Hindu shrine seems little but it would be nice to build the Hindu cathedrals.
Will not happen in time I think. We'd need to go back to OR anyway.
The net gain from SM is not absolutely convincing. Do we gain the bonus from obsoleted monasteries? If not this is not much better than the Hindu shrine.
No but 31 CT * 2 = 62g/t effective immediately (plus multipliers).

soundjata said:
Last spam and I'll be waiting for feedback and work on the tedious micro plan :/

Would it be smart to not war. but make friend with an AI (Qin?), give him a lot of techs and make him war with the other dudes so we are safe against random DOW+can open the door to a UN victory?
No AI will have enough power to DoW us. The other advantage is Qin can help our research must better than what SM allows. Let's give Qin our cannons?
How to get him Friendly? Duckweed already mentioned problem with our Vassal and religion. We'd need to go back to Bureaucracy, which is conflicting. War takes 10 turns for each +1, meaning it'd be end game only useless for techs.

Edit: Let's give Qin Sippar (Tao holly city)
Maybe later, not decided on this yet. We may need the religion for a bit longer.

shakabrade said:
My civ computer is 350km away from me but I think you forgot 150% boost from broadway, r'n'r and hollywood.
Research is achieved through building wealth and research, and, also, through specialists.
I don't think we can make Qin friendly with shared war. It takes much more time than we have. Besides, we already have an AI to vote for us. We can't be DOWed I think, since we are too powerful. And I think Qin will not be warred with until end game (victory).

We'll have to many votes for UN victory, but when we liberate some cities turn before vote, everything will come in place.

Good luck ducks. And I hope for some screenshots so I could watch our progress next two weeks.
Sorry! It really is a pain at this point there's so much going on (and so little important), I'll make an overview.

soundjata said:
@ Shaka. Ok noted the low interest on fuzzing with Qin.
And yes I forgot Broadway, Hollywood, RNR, and also broadcast tower (or eiffel meh). All these make cultural VC all the more easier in my book.

I still need some indications on the war vs. SB. What's the point exactly?
See above.
Back to GP farming.
If I understand well, we only need 1 more non GS great person to allow for the last GA.

Or do we plan on finishing after T209+25?
It will be a bit longer as I said above.
- If yes, we might want another GA, which costs 4 GP of different kind and is detrimental to Artist bombs.
IMO, what it means is we might want to delay start of the GA, there's no way it takes 36 turns total to win.
- If no, what's the point of farming anything else but artists?

OH YES bulbing. Any GP type will bulb FT eventually.
But some kind of GP lead us to wrong parts of the tech tree. Let's see:
At some point, every tech will be 1-t.

Priest: Check. Bulbs nothing but FT after divine right.
Artist: Check. Bulbs all sort of good stuff on the way to computers. then bulbs robotics, which we don't need but at that time we'll bomb.
Scientist: good until satellite. Not good after: will bulb laser, which we don't need.
Merchant: good till FT.
Engineer: good until Plastic. Then will bulb ecology, which we don't need.
If we get a GE, he's making Creative Constructions in Paris.
We need 1 backup GP to make a 3rd Corporation.

My conclusion:
Next turn we can assign all kind of specialists in our GP farms, but need to keep pure Artists for the bombs.
Agree.
As we are not going to use Caste system and pacifism too soon I guess we can't generate more than 6 or 7 GP by T209+25.
As soon as we're done whipping Factory+Coal Plants. (~10 turns).
As we need 3 to 5 bombs, that is still not many non artists.

Time for a spreadsheet This is my gaming machine man. No excel. Brrr. I hate using my working laptop on the weekend BRB

I'll take a crack on GPP also, 2 heads are usually better

EDIT: have Paris take the plains farm from Grenoble to grow next turn. We'll gain some commerce throughout empire.

soundjata · Dec 22, 2012

Oh yay I'm done with the ekzelle plan.
@ Kossin What are the 24 techs you are talking about? I count only 19 :confused:

Anyway, either my plan is completely off, or the end game on T235 is a cakewalk

Edit: Oh yay I forgot rifling. I think we can trade it :cool:

I would like to post the file but the forum won't let me post an XLS
edit ok zipped it. :goodjob:

kossin · Dec 22, 2012

Oh you're right, not sure what I was smoking there. Still, need to include MM+Communism.

Nonetheless, T235 seems a bit early given our inability to run 100% slider for a bit. Maybe we should look into building cash for a few turns until AL.

kossin · Dec 22, 2012

Overview

Troops and galleon bridge. Note a galley is in Amiens with a Sushi Ex; it completes the missing link.

Spoiler :

F1

Spoiler :

F2

Spoiler :

F4

Spoiler :

F5

Spoiler :

F6

Spoiler :

Corps

Spoiler :

F8

Spoiler :

F9

Spoiler :

EP - we should probably split half/half between SB (to keep vision during war) and Qin (for missions).

Spoiler :

Few cities

Spoiler :

kossin · Dec 22, 2012

soundjata said:
Oh yay I'm done with the ekzelle plan.
@ Kossin What are the 24 techs you are talking about? I count only 19

Anyway, either my plan is completely off, or the end game on T235 is a cakewalk

Edit: Oh yay I forgot rifling. I think we can trade it

I would like to post the file but the forum won't let me post an XLS

rar/zip it.

soundjata · Dec 22, 2012

uploaded as zip few posts above.

True we can't maintain a high slider before we can build enough gold so I might be slightly optimistic.

I observe mass media is not mandatory and might be skipped if we can win Dom + Conquest or Dom + AP victory.

kossin · Dec 22, 2012

The problem with AP is we can only win on t219, t229, t239...
MM will be a 1t research and can be completed shortly before end game. Anyway, we will delay MM I think (50% culture lost but w/e) until last moment when we are more certain when we will finish.

kossin · Dec 22, 2012

Good spreadsheet, however we require more detailed GPP plan. It is not obvious at all to me that we can achieve the first 7 GArtists in 12 turns of Caste.
We probably go into Caste+Pacifism around T218, can't afford later.

soundjata · Dec 22, 2012

As communism is not an emergency (0% great scientist in Orleans), should'nt we research AL now instead. Slider at zero this turn and turn it up in a couple of turns?

soundjata · Dec 22, 2012

kossin said:
Good spreadsheet, however we require more detailed GPP plan. It is not obvious at all to me that we can achieve the first 7 GArtists in 12 turns of Caste.
We probably go into Caste+Pacifism around T218, can't afford later.

Yes I forgot the fact we can't get more than 1GP each turn.
OR becomes not necessary after all factories/coal plants are built.
edit: Hence switch to caste/paci can be made earlier. The last few culture multipliers are not that crucial anyways due to the ample bombing.

I'll work on a more detailed plan tomowow.

Duckweed · Dec 22, 2012

I can't study the save carefully for the moment, so there are some highlights for next session in terms of priority.

#1. Mine and Sushi -- You need a clear plan of the spreading route of both corporation. The critical thing is how to spread it fastest, so that you need to plan ahead and know which cities will get the corporations next and which cities need to produce CEs next (these cities need to do pre-whip to gain OF so that they can produce CEs in 1 turn optimally). For instance, if Dur (just an example, not necessary this city) is going to get mining next turn from Tolosa, then it needs to whip this turn and adjust the tiles so that it could produce a MIE immediately next turn. You need to spot some hubs and spread the corporations to the hub cities in the fastest way (spread to the cities on route 1st).

#2 GPs. -- I posted the estimation of culture in Paris and Orleans sometime ago, We are going to need ~8 GAs for culture bomb, so prioritize the GP farms to get Sushi and run artists to get them except 1 city for GM for the 3 GP GA. We should launch the GA and switch to CS and Pacifism immediately. When the AL is complete, we can switch back to slavery for 5 turns.

#3 War -- The important thing is to ship the reinforcements from our home land to Babylon as soon as possible, this is going to take ~5 turns.

BTW if we want to steal a tech from Qin, we should switch EP back on him.

shakabrade · Dec 22, 2012

Communism gives us gspy for Golden Age and Kremlin for whips. Sooner GA is better, sooner Kremlin is better. That's why, I think.

kossin · Dec 22, 2012

soundjata said:
As communism is not an emergency (0% great scientist in Orleans), should'nt we research AL now instead. Slider at zero this turn and turn it up in a couple of turns?

Communism is mainly for Kremlin to reduce cost of Factory+CP whips.

EDIT: xpost with shaka!

soundjata · Dec 22, 2012

Duckweed said:
I can't study the save carefully for the moment, so there are some highlights for next session in terms of priority.

#1. Mine and Sushi -- You need a clear plan of the spreading route of both corporation. The critical thing is how to spread it fastest, so that you need to plan ahead and know which cities will get the corporations next and which cities need to produce CEs next (these cities need to do pre-whip to gain OF so that they can produce CEs in 1 turn optimally). For instance, if Dur (just an example, not necessary this city) is going to get mining next turn from Tolosa, then it needs to whip this turn and adjust the tiles so that it could produce a MIE immediately next turn. You need to spot some hubs and spread the corporations to the hub cities in the fastest way (spread to the cities on route 1st).
I will plan the spreading before I play. I also need to practice galleon bridge in a test game.

#2 GPs. -- I posted the estimation of culture in Paris and Orleans sometime ago, We are going to need ~8 GAs for culture bomb, so prioritize the GP farms to get Sushi and run artists to get them except 1 city for GM for the 3 GP GA. We should launch the GA and switch to CS and Pacifism immediately. When the AL is complete, we can switch back to slavery for 5 turns.
Agree with 8 bombs. 3 for Orleans, 5 for Paris.
Isn't the switching to caste contradictory with the idea of whipping executives?

#3 War -- The important thing is to ship the reinforcements from our home land to Babylon as soon as possible, this is going to take ~5 turns.
I still don't have a clear idea how to war with SB. Where do we want to launch the attack for example?

BTW if we want to steal a tech from Qin, we should switch EP back on him.
I'm still unclear with the espionage and tech gifting plan. Kossin mentioned splitting the EP.

Comments inda blue

soundjata · Dec 22, 2012

kossin said:
Communism is mainly for Kremlin to reduce cost of Factory+CP whips.

EDIT: xpost with shaka!

and Kremlin is built in Tolosa I guess? We get a nice whip OF next turn.
if in Bib, it can only start in a couple of turns.

Duckweed · Dec 22, 2012

2. If you have a clear plan of how to spread, then you can do all the necessary whip in this and next turn and keep the OF by building wealth. We only need slavery for factories and plants whip.

3. How to war is simple, 3 cities to take in my impression, his capital and 2 coastal cities eastern of capital.

kossin · Dec 22, 2012

Bibracte will get huge OF from WS so Kremlin should be pretty fast there.

Tolosa focuses on spreading Mining.

EDIT: Bibracte will 3 turns Kremlin without Golden Age, or 2 turns with GA next turn.

soundjata · Dec 22, 2012

Duckweed said:
2. If you have a clear plan of how to spread, then you can do all the necessary whip in this and next turn and keep the OF by building wealth. We only need slavery for factories and plants whip.

I see.

3. How to war is simple, 3 cities to take in my impression, his capital and 2 coastal cities eastern of capital.

I see but be aware that SB has a very high resistance to capitulation. It might take most of his cities... Can we afford it?

kossin said:
Bibracte will get huge OF from WS so Kremlin should be pretty fast there.

In this case slider at 0% this turn

Tolosa focuses on spreading Mining.

Duckweed · Dec 22, 2012

We only need to complete Kre 1 turn after AL, so that Bib might spare 1 or 2 turns to produce MIE?

soundjata said:
I see but be aware that SB has a very high resistance to capitulation. It might take most of his cities... Can we afford it?

Then keep taking his cities until he bend, our forces are more than enough to wipe him completely. Of course we won't due to the domination limit and colonial expense.

@soundjata

You missed the previous posts. We want communism as soon as possible for failed cash. You could pick other city to start Kre next turn. There's no problem of running partially slider now, a few beakers loss in this stage is trivial.

SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

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