What civs to play against for a challenging domination victory?

So my friend and I play team games against random civs. Last game was a lot of fun where i tried out the huns for the first time and took 3 capitals before my battering rams, or BAMFs as we started calling them, became obsolete. This is all on king, standard map, standard speed, continents, standard everything else. Long story short we ended up having to frantically do diplomatic victory because we couldn't nuke Hiawatha fast enough to slow his bank roll.

So here is what I am wanting to do for the next game. Turn off all victory types except domination with the hope that they will wage war more often and make domination a bit more challenging. Now, my friend loves playing as Japan. So that civ is out. I can play as whoever, it won't matter. What civs should we play against? What map size? How many city states? What map type? Play against one large team or would a group of small teams? Or several large teams?

Pretty much just throw out what you would do for a challenging domination only game.

I don't play with victory modes off, but I have heard people say on these forums that when their chosen victory mode is disabled civs don't do a very good job at pursuing another one. If that's really the case you may need to focus on the warlike civs pretty exclusively to make it work well.

On a side note, you can hurt yourself a lot more than you help if you try to keep any of the spoils of a battering ram conquest spree. You have to keep capitals but beyond that raze everything. That may have contributed to your trouble keeping up with hiawatha in your last game.

Leader Spreadsheet

Take a look at this image, it tells you the 'traits' of all leaders.
You are interested in leaders that like to be Offensive (Flavors) for example, there are some other traits in there too. Pick your favorites.

TyBoy said:

I don't play with victory modes off, but I have heard people say on these forums that when their chosen victory mode is disabled civs don't do a very good job at pursuing another one. If that's really the case you may need to focus on the warlike civs pretty exclusively to make it work well.

On a side note, you can hurt yourself a lot more than you help if you try to keep any of the spoils of a battering ram conquest spree. You have to keep capitals but beyond that raze everything. That may have contributed to your trouble keeping up with hiawatha in your last game.

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I just didnt know what civs would be good at it.

I didnt keep any except capitals. I had 4 cities total. The problem we ran into is that Catherine decided to settle next to me along this narrow single width strip of land with a lake on one side. Our land units were bottle necked and we had no navy. I eventually cleared them out, during this time though Hiawatha was thriving. He completes the Apollo Program as we are still on electricity. During which point we concluded that we need to bee line to nuclear subs and nukes. After some time, we get nukes, I nuke his 35 or so population city. It felt... Incredible. My friend during this time is amassing an army that wouldnt be obsolete. As soon as he starts moving his units onto the ocean, the diplomatic pre election pops up. Hiawatha has 14 votes. 10 votes to win. At this point, we are thinking, "F we need to take that city ASAP!". It was hard to juggle as all my money was going to nukes and nuking his cities while my friend was in the - cash flow. Diplomatic election comes up and he is 1 vote short. Within a few turns we manage to take his city. During this time catherine has been completing hella space parts, our units were taxed and we could not afford more nukes as at this point we had to direct all cash to bribing city states away from catherine. Eventually we won with 10 votes.

Yeah, we won, but it wasnt a very "fun" way to win. We were planning on domination with lots of battles. My early game victory over 3 capitals was great! But afterwards it just slowed down to halt. The AI never go to war with each other either. I cannot count the number of times I have tried to get the AI to war each other but they NEVER want to. Ever. I also never get attacked, even though I dont wield a large army at most times.

Ajuga said:

Leader Spreadsheet

Take a look at this image, it tells you the 'traits' of all leaders.
You are interested in leaders that like to be Offensive (Flavors) for example, there are some other traits in there too. Pick your favorites.

Click to expand...

Good chart, thanks. Would it be safe to assume that those with 7+ war are more likely to succeed in domination?

The most warmongering civs in my games are often:

Aztecs
Greece
Rome
Germany
Persia (the forever runaway)
Iroquois
The Celts
China
Russia
The Huns
Mongolia

ellevehc said:

we couldn't nuke Hiawatha fast enough

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That guy, right there. Somehow leads in tech and military every game. He has diarrhea and shits settlers, on immortal I've seen him cap 2+ cities per turn against England and Germany on a two-front war, and he can wipe out civs before you meet them even on pangea. Try playing against 6 of them and see what happens. He's like Mongolia except unburdened by a desire to build keshiks that he doesn't know how to use.

Because the human can always out-think the AI, and because, generally speaking, once an AI's force is "broken" it's as good as beaten, you'll never find a particularly "challenging" military win below "whatever point reflects your skill level's capacity to deflect the AI's attrition". I don't know what that level is for you currently... it might be king, it might be immortal.

It's a loaded question, too. You might start an emperor game in the middle of a continent surrounded by vitriolic monte, sulie, nappy and askia, get WTH pwnt and say to yourself, "I thought I was better than this". You might start on an isolated island on deity and say "haha I ma teh leetzor". It's situational.

TyBoy said:

I don't play with victory modes off, but I have heard people say on these forums that when their chosen victory mode is disabled civs don't do a very good job at pursuing another one. If that's really the case you may need to focus on the warlike civs pretty exclusively to make it work well.

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No, they aren't affected much. It'd be much like a standard game of die rolling, except this time even the peaceful types like Gandhi will hit on you ("my master plan shall commence" or "stepping stone to world domination").

And from what I played from the Fall patch, they aren't hesitant to buy off CSes if at war with you too. So if you are looking for an easy game of "Major civ AIs don't mess around with city-states" game by switching off all victory conditions, it doesn't work that way anymore.


Anyways for a Definitive List of Challenging Domination Opponents, try this:

1) Hiawatha
2) Napoleon
3) Bismarck
4) Oda Nobunaga
5) Darius
6) Alexander
7) Catherine

Play on higher level. Emperor, immortal... whichever it takes. No need to handpick opponents.

Iriquois, Huns, Mongolians, Sweden, Russia and Japan all make nasty Dom opponents, not only for their disposition to warmongering, but their Medieval/Renaissance presence. Same goes for Elizabeth; though not strictly warlike, just settle a city within 30 tiles of her (hyperbole) and she's sure to DoW you.

Ethiopia In the industrial on immortal. I'd like to see you try to get past their bonus and UU Riflemen that have an even stronger bonus near cities. I still have nightmares.

Jerman said:

Ethiopia In the industrial on immortal. I'd like to see you try to get past their bonus and UU Riflemen that have an even stronger bonus near cities. I still have nightmares.

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As someone famous once said: They are tough... but they ain't invincible

On a side note stealths have been nerfed and am quite happy about that - have been rushing Bomb shelters to protect my planes from nukes though. Ethiopia can often act like a giant wall for quite a while - but nukes as always solve everything.
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An AI is only as challenging because of size. If its limited to one/two cities it will not have enough to blanket you with. So whomever can spread wide and far will always be a challenge:

France, Mongolia, Persia, Greece, Russia are the Big 5.

To a lesser extent but always a threat: Iroquois, Danish (post patch they will go runaway almost every game I see them), Japan, Monty (He will war you just for teh lolz), and Atilla (with the swarm of units the AI has if you are his target it may just be gg even if he doesn't know how to use them well.)

Gucumatz said:

On a side note stealths have been nerfed

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Theoretically they have.

Gucumatz said:

On a side note stealths have been nerfed and am quite happy about that

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Whenever I get stealths, nothing can stop me, unless they already have stealths and nukes. Even then, AI usually can't use them as well. So, hardly nerfed. Not that I'm complaining. Sometimes it's fun to just steamroll everybody. It's late enough in the game that if I wanted to win with a full challenge, I would have already committed to doing so, and either done it or loss. It acts like GDRs in that way (though I'd much prefer stealths to GDRs, if in the mood).

Also, and noticeably more on topic, I wouldn't pick Monty, because his love for war has him with early games, but ultimate flatlining. Usually if I don't see him early, he's nothing. I don't think I've ever seen him run away.

Of course, on the occasions he early wars me, I end up crushing him early, and that may play a role. But once again, if I only meet him late game, he's nothing.

Hiawatha, on the other hand, is an almost constant runaway. (I will say, however, when I play TSL maps -typically Drozzy's Earth mod- Washington ends up beating him half the time, and running away himself. So Hiawatha isn't infallible.)

France usually does well, same with Greece, but Mongolia, despite his reputation, is extremely loyal. While I doubt you'd be interested in allying, that's worth noticing because it can mean he may not go as warmonger as you would be looking for. And Attila I usually find to hole up in his Court, and act as if he were attempting a OCC, or a cultural victory. That's every time I play against him. Maybe I've just had off luck, but it seems the AI doesn't know how to use battering rams and horse archers.

Dido, however, likes to war. If not me, she's open to sending an army half across the map to sucessfully invade another civ if necessary. (She did this to Sweden in a game I was just playing. Went right around me and Japan (whom I might note were both on her level, or above), to attack Sweden specifically (the low man of the game). It was well done, and successful too. Poor Sweden.)

Don't play Spain, they city spam poorly, and are rarely a challenge. Just a load of crappy cities.

Lastly, a common runaway, not from war though- so perhaps not what you are seeking, is Siam. If they're in, they runaway more often than Hiawatha on me. And they're worse with city states than Greece when I play them. (Not cool Rhammky, not cool.)