SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
2 city builds
Rennes: should scrap its CH, it will never complete, even if we spread mining it isn't worth it (120H lost for CH, 14gpt saved, ~70g for spread, 100H for Exec -> ~300H would take 22 turns to pay back)
Should Mining be spread? No.
(100H exec, ~70g spread, 18gpt, +22Hpt, -> ~170H would take 43t to pay back)
Opis: to complete the CH, it either needs to spread Christianism or spend 6 turns with 3 citizens to get enough H for the whip.
Both alternatives have about the same cost (40H missionary vs 54 gold from merchants, 9gpt + 2gpt savings at 91.4% odds vs 9gpt savings at 100% odds). However, building the missionary is difficult, it comes at the expenses of a more important build somewhere...
EDIT:
Diplo vote is going to be more complicated than expected at first... unless we acquire a new vassal.
I've tested this a bit... the population from our cities may not exceed 62% of the total population, at any time before the results are announced. Meaning, our vassal must make the difference in votes. Here's the tricky part: acquiring enough land without acquiring too much population. We can work on it as we get nearer to the end (roughly 10 turns away) but the simplest answer is to starve our cities while monitoring AI cities to ensure we have enough votes.
Raze SB cities and re-settle them + culture pop.
Another thing to help: a colony on the island just SW of Amiens. Liberate Amiens to it which gives us a good buffer without losing many tiles.
Rennes: should scrap its CH, it will never complete, even if we spread mining it isn't worth it (120H lost for CH, 14gpt saved, ~70g for spread, 100H for Exec -> ~300H would take 22 turns to pay back)
Should Mining be spread? No.
(100H exec, ~70g spread, 18gpt, +22Hpt, -> ~170H would take 43t to pay back)
Opis: to complete the CH, it either needs to spread Christianism or spend 6 turns with 3 citizens to get enough H for the whip.
Both alternatives have about the same cost (40H missionary vs 54 gold from merchants, 9gpt + 2gpt savings at 91.4% odds vs 9gpt savings at 100% odds). However, building the missionary is difficult, it comes at the expenses of a more important build somewhere...
EDIT:
Diplo vote is going to be more complicated than expected at first... unless we acquire a new vassal.
I've tested this a bit... the population from our cities may not exceed 62% of the total population, at any time before the results are announced. Meaning, our vassal must make the difference in votes. Here's the tricky part: acquiring enough land without acquiring too much population. We can work on it as we get nearer to the end (roughly 10 turns away) but the simplest answer is to starve our cities while monitoring AI cities to ensure we have enough votes.
Raze SB cities and re-settle them + culture pop.
Another thing to help: a colony on the island just SW of Amiens. Liberate Amiens to it which gives us a good buffer without losing many tiles.
The gifted city should be in AI hands for a full turn so that the spread culture option becomes available. It also happens to give the -50% culture cost reduction which we don't get otherwise.
If we want to gift both Orleans and Paris, we:
1) need more EPP (more Jails+IAs) (and obviously, spies)
2) don't need a too detailed GPP plan as we won't be relying on GArtists too much (although a few will reduce the EPP cost in Paris)
3) can use a few GMs to boost research @ 2500~3100 gold a piece (GS can only bulb Radio so a bit impractical)
4) possibly can skip Eiffel Tower
5) can maybe combine all these to push for T235 victory?
Settling new cities on victory-1T costs less overall as you need less hammers (1 popped border is 21 tiles vs 9). You get more upkeep (20 gpt per city) but they generate as many beakers as they cost. We only need 2 new cities and 3 old SB cities.
~~~
To be conservative, the EPP cost should be about 4:1 (in the test game, I pay about 4.2:1 however the real game the AIs will generate more EPP).
On T234
Orleans ~36,000 culture
Paris ~22,000 culture (+1~2 bombs)
---
34~42k culture required === 8.5~10.5k EPP seems reasonable
19~25 spy missions necessary, so maybe 1,600H in spies total instead of 1,000H.
The cost to bring a 3rd city to Legendary would be much higher than U.N. ... the next unlikely candidate city is Babylon (due to Babylonian culture still existing, otherwise Thebes would be great).
tl;dr;
I'll try to revise things for a T235 victory instead by using fewer GA bombs and merchants instead.
In any case, T236 is 100% possible.
If we want to gift both Orleans and Paris, we:
1) need more EPP (more Jails+IAs) (and obviously, spies)
2) don't need a too detailed GPP plan as we won't be relying on GArtists too much (although a few will reduce the EPP cost in Paris)
3) can use a few GMs to boost research @ 2500~3100 gold a piece (GS can only bulb Radio so a bit impractical)
4) possibly can skip Eiffel Tower
5) can maybe combine all these to push for T235 victory?
Settling new cities on victory-1T costs less overall as you need less hammers (1 popped border is 21 tiles vs 9). You get more upkeep (20 gpt per city) but they generate as many beakers as they cost. We only need 2 new cities and 3 old SB cities.
~~~
To be conservative, the EPP cost should be about 4:1 (in the test game, I pay about 4.2:1 however the real game the AIs will generate more EPP).
On T234
Orleans ~36,000 culture
Paris ~22,000 culture (+1~2 bombs)
---
34~42k culture required === 8.5~10.5k EPP seems reasonable
19~25 spy missions necessary, so maybe 1,600H in spies total instead of 1,000H.
The cost to bring a 3rd city to Legendary would be much higher than U.N. ... the next unlikely candidate city is Babylon (due to Babylonian culture still existing, otherwise Thebes would be great).
tl;dr;
I'll try to revise things for a T235 victory instead by using fewer GA bombs and merchants instead.
In any case, T236 is 100% possible.
soundjata
hole in cheese
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
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@Kossin
If we have less reliance on GA farming, you can still use my GP plan (notice hidden columns with details on pop and # of specialists). You can even discard one or two cities (Rheims) to favor factories whip instead of GP farming.
Is the war plan with SB clear yet?
If we have less reliance on GA farming, you can still use my GP plan (notice hidden columns with details on pop and # of specialists). You can even discard one or two cities (Rheims) to favor factories whip instead of GP farming.
Is the war plan with SB clear yet?
War
4 Airships + current troops should pretty much annihilate SB.
Cities to keep: current one, Cahokia, Islam Holy City or on of the southern cities to block Saladin. The rest is razed.
GPP
Since we wouldn't be relying on GPP so much, I was thinking of going back to Free Religion to boost beakers. It also contributes quite a bit in terms of happiness (when AIs go to Emancipation). I just have to compare whether ~3,000 gold outweighs the FR benefit (I don't think so).
4 Airships + current troops should pretty much annihilate SB.
Cities to keep: current one, Cahokia, Islam Holy City or on of the southern cities to block Saladin. The rest is razed.
GPP
Since we wouldn't be relying on GPP so much, I was thinking of going back to Free Religion to boost beakers. It also contributes quite a bit in terms of happiness (when AIs go to Emancipation). I just have to compare whether ~3,000 gold outweighs the FR benefit (I don't think so).
We could create a vassal from SB's cities or gift cities to Saladin, No need to raze cities since they increase the population cap of diplomatic victory.
Will switching to FR also disables the effect of UoS and SM?
You also need to choose some cities dedicated to spies (better to be around 40H/t).
Will switching to FR also disables the effect of UoS and SM?
You also need to choose some cities dedicated to spies (better to be around 40H/t).
Here's the comparison on T221 after the slavery+OR 5t. No micro whatsoever, only 1 unhappy citizen affected.
Slavery+OR
4,729 bpt
180 gpt
Paris - 459 cpt
Orleans - 745 cpt
---
4,909 b+g
1,204 c
Caste+Pacifism
4,734 bpt
390 gpt
Paris - 459 cpt
Orleans - 745 cpt
---
5,124 b+g
1,204 c
Caste + FR
5,018 bpt
365 gpt
Paris - 468 cpt
Orleans - 760 cpt
---
5,383 b+g
1,228 c
So that's ~250 b+g without any micro (bound to favor more FR after micro). Pretty sure FR will be better than Pacifism in this case (~< 12 turns required to outweigh one extra GM).
I'll run another test a bit later, not a busy day today.
Latest test:
T236 victory
On T235, there was enough research overflow to complete Future Tech 1! However, the problem is there's 1 tech too many to research... that is, unless we can find a way to speed up one of the technologies that takes 2 turns to research early on.
Basically, the next 10 turns will decide whether it's a T235 or T236 victory.
EDIT: pretty sure I've figured it out, just need to queue a cheap tech like Rifling around that time and problem solved... So plan is for T235 victory, we'll want UN vote on T234 so completion date is T227... Mass Media should be researched by T225.
T236 victory
On T235, there was enough research overflow to complete Future Tech 1! However, the problem is there's 1 tech too many to research... that is, unless we can find a way to speed up one of the technologies that takes 2 turns to research early on.
Basically, the next 10 turns will decide whether it's a T235 or T236 victory.
EDIT: pretty sure I've figured it out, just need to queue a cheap tech like Rifling around that time and problem solved... So plan is for T235 victory, we'll want UN vote on T234 so completion date is T227... Mass Media should be researched by T225.
How do you guys feel about allowing an extension?
Maintenance Thread posts
~~~
I'll go back to testing with the modifications I had in mind, see if I can bring this bad boy in by T235.
Maintenance Thread posts
~~~
I'll go back to testing with the modifications I had in mind, see if I can bring this bad boy in by T235.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
If you feel you'd need time to make it T235, I have nothing against it. Also, I think you should wrap the game up. I don't think anyone can do this better than you and there wouldn't be need for you or anyone to waste time on PPP. It is impossible to write all you hold in your head and also coordinate it with other players. You'll make the least number of mistakes plus T235 is your baby.
Opened test game yesterday and I was amazed by the effort. And it is something like worst case scenario cause you couldn't WB food in cities.
Opened test game yesterday and I was amazed by the effort. And it is something like worst case scenario cause you couldn't WB food in cities.
It's 10 days and not 1 month extension. If it makes for a more interesting finish, perhaps it's not all too bad?
We'll know much earlier than 10t before the end what's the victory turn.
~~~
Well I was wrong about this test, I came up short 1,600 beakers.
6 GPs were generated: 3 GAs, 1 GM, 1 GS, 1 GE (1200~2200 gpp)
Starving was not too difficult to allow Diplo.
Test game is uploaded... note I launched a GA just for kicks on the last turn.
This left me with 8,000 spare EPP... I overshot it a little
If we remove the 1~2 GA bombs, we still have 6,000 EPP left, which is too much as well. With a second GM instead of GS, this is easily in the bag for T235. (see second & third saves)
We'll know much earlier than 10t before the end what's the victory turn.
~~~
Well I was wrong about this test, I came up short 1,600 beakers.
6 GPs were generated: 3 GAs, 1 GM, 1 GS, 1 GE (1200~2200 gpp)
The 3 GAs were culture bombed in Paris.
The GS founded the 3rd corporation.
The GM made a 2,300 gold mission to Mecca.
The GE was used for triggering a Golden Age.
The GS founded the 3rd corporation.
The GM made a 2,300 gold mission to Mecca.
The GE was used for triggering a Golden Age.
Starving was not too difficult to allow Diplo.
Test game is uploaded... note I launched a GA just for kicks on the last turn.
This left me with 8,000 spare EPP... I overshot it a little
If we remove the 1~2 GA bombs, we still have 6,000 EPP left, which is too much as well. With a second GM instead of GS, this is easily in the bag for T235. (see second & third saves)
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