SGOTM 17 - Plastic Ducks

Doshin · Mar 10, 2013

I've been ignoring a few of the big picture debates while playing. However, I wholeheartedly agree with Duckweed that the island must be scouted sooner rather than later. I would only be against this if the Archer/Worker scouting expedition reveal an amazingly powerful spot on their trek back home (probably commerce or wonder oriented).

Settling the island will mean an instant +3 commerce from trade routes, and another +1 commerce for each city settled thereafter. Presumably it will work a seafood tile too. So +1/2 :food:

+6

upon settling, and the Fur city could build a WB with the Copper site (maybe... just thinking out loud). The Banana/Rice city would contribute +3 :food:

+1

, by contrast, although we know that it has at least one more resource tile to grow onto.

Even if kcd hasn't hidden another resource on the island, it is still a very good settle, in spite of the cost of a Galley (which will need to be built sooner or later in any case).

Duckweed · Mar 10, 2013

@shakabrade

I'd suggest that you run a test to see the difference of settling the island city and settling a city ~10 tiles west of capital, you will know how serious of the commerce issue. That's at least 5C+ difference due to the distance and trade route. You will then understand why I said that we would not consider 3rd city west of the rice/banana. 5C is ~40% of our total research ability after working on the fur tile.

Moreover, whipping a galley immediately delays the rice/banana by ~4 turns if nothing good on the island, OTOH, if the island city is good, not whipping the galley now will delay the settlement by ~15 turns.

xpost with Doshi

soundjata · Mar 10, 2013

Doshin said:
As I said before, I'm happy to play on until the Settler completes. Things should speed up now that we've committed to the Worker steal. But unless someone says otherwise, I'm going to assume that soundjata is up.

Please continue till settler is completed Doshin. I'll take the set then.

Doshin · Mar 11, 2013

Did we reach a consensus on Worker management?

I assume move to GH, build a road, and then move towards Fur/Copper as soon as the Settler is complete?

The alternative is to build roads on further Jungle tiles before improving the resources, saving Worker turns in the long run.

soundjata · Mar 11, 2013

I wonder who will be the 1st one to dare writing a PPP :rolleyes:

I will make a test tonight to get in the game and see if I can find something relevant to the micro. Probably not though.

Bebekija · Mar 11, 2013

soundjata said:
I wonder who will be the 1st one to dare writing a PPP

I agree that the roster has been a vague concept over the past couple of weeks, but everyone's been busy IRL and we had to proceed this way to get the game going. As a result, we're being really slow.

So I suggest that we get back to the more structured process described in the first couple of posts, and plan for ~ 5-15 turns turnsets, if we have at least one active player at any given time, it will be more efficient.

So the 1st PPP is likely to be yours, soundj, and then, if the rest of the team allows it, I can take over next week to make use of the one-week vacation of my kids....

~~~~

On the issue of worker management, I don't think there's a better thing to do than roading the GH. It will speed up the settler by one turn, and the tradeoff is only one worker turn.

UnforcedError · Mar 11, 2013

Great job on stealing the worker although I'm again the last one to comment on it

Roading the GH is a great idea for now, I agree.

shakabrade said:
Isn't Unforced Error actually a SHE?

Actually yes, although I didn't notice the reference until you pointed it out

I must be getting used to my neutral alias

@Kossin, if it is possible to skip me as an active player for 1-2 more weeks that would be great.

kossin · Mar 11, 2013

Doshin said:
Did we reach a consensus on Worker management?

I assume move to GH, build a road, and then move towards Fur/Copper as soon as the Settler is complete?

The alternative is to build roads on further Jungle tiles before improving the resources, saving Worker turns in the long run.

I didn't see any opposition to the GH road. It gives us more commerce earlier and a quick road to improve the mine later on.

soundjata said:
I wonder who will be the 1st one to dare writing a PPP

I will make a test tonight to get in the game and see if I can find something relevant to the micro. Probably not though.

Well, technically, I did write a few for the first set. They were just never final

Bebekija said:
I agree that the roster has been a vague concept over the past couple of weeks, but everyone's been busy IRL and we had to proceed this way to get the game going. As a result, we're being really slow.

So I suggest that we get back to the more structured process described in the first couple of posts, and plan for ~ 5-15 turns turnsets, if we have at least one active player at any given time, it will be more efficient.

So the 1st PPP is likely to be yours, soundj, and then, if the rest of the team allows it, I can take over next week to make use of the one-week vacation of my kids....

~~~~

On the issue of worker management, I don't think there's a better thing to do than roading the GH. It will speed up the settler by one turn, and the tradeoff is only one worker turn.

The problem is that we're ironing out issues at the moment and they keep popping out. For instance, the worker steal. Since this is a 'creative' map, odds are we'll be playing slowly for a bit longer - but once the core of cities is established, we can start playing faster.

And as Duckweed said, we actually need some longer tests to make some better decisions.

UnforcedError said:
Great job on stealing the worker although I'm again the last one to comment on it
Roading the GH is a great idea for now, I agree.

Actually yes, although I didn't notice the reference until you pointed it out I must be getting used to my neutral alias

@Kossin, if it is possible to skip me as an active player for 1-2 more weeks that would be great.

Certainly.

1. shakabrade - ON DECK
2. kossin
3. Bebekija
4. Doshin - PLAYING
5. soundjata - UP
6. UnforcedError - skip

Duckweed - PC issues

Doshin · Mar 11, 2013

T17

Mansa follows our units:

Spoiler :

Worker moves 1SW. Archer follows:

Spoiler :

Worker moves onto GH. Manually switch capital to work Grass Forest:

Spoiler :

Demographics/espionage:

Spoiler :

T18

Capital at size 4. Whip Settler:

Spoiler :

Worker moves 1SE, followed by Archer:

Spoiler :

Demographics/Espionage:

Spoiler :

Shadows in the West:

Spoiler :

Points of note:

Mansa is now willing to talk. Peace is "impossible." Is there a reason we should or should not ask for a ceasefire? I didn't try.

Judaism is still unclaimed.

Edit: uploaded! Good luck soundjata.

kossin · Mar 11, 2013

Don't see a reason not to grab ceasefire but it's unlikely to be available for some time as well according to my test.

Looks like a chokepoint in the west...

EDIT: The high editing seems to favor a galley for intercontinental trade...

shakabrade · Mar 11, 2013

EDIT: The high editing seems to favor a galley for intercontinental trade...

Agree. This is extremely edited map. Galley could be significant for commerce not only for island. Also, there could be more islands south of our island or land strip connecting to other AIs. Switching my vote to Duckweed's galley. + it seems we can't support 3 cities without losing lot of commerce (later Alpha-->Maths-->Mids?).

bestsss · Mar 11, 2013

So the baba city is pretty much what expected: a choke point, probably the only way to enter the west landmass.
The boat looks stronger now. I really hope there is food around the north gems.

Bebekija · Mar 11, 2013

Choke point indeed.

Spoiler :

The position of the barb city doesn't relate to this mountain pass though. Is it the next choke point?

kossin · Mar 11, 2013

I'll take a look at the game a bit later but there are a lot of possibilities to get the choke working.

It's maybe a 1-tile choke that eventually leads up to the barb city.
It's maybe a full mountain wall and we need boats to cross.
Or as Bebekija said, another farther-down-the-map choke.

kossin · Mar 11, 2013

I've noticed a few more mountains to the south of us - just at the edge of the fog. Plus, of course, some jungle.

Duckweed · Mar 11, 2013

Duckweed said:
The real thing needs attention is whether Mansa could grab Judaism, which has a great impact on what's his next tech choice, more likely he will go for CoL then. I don't know whether we should switch to IW instead, need some serious tests. We might need to set science slider to 0% for a few turn for flexibility.

Any clear mind of how to deal with this situation.

If Mansa goes for CoL, he will still likely go for IW or Math after that.

Shall we switch research to Math or IW then? and which one?

There's 2 techs that we MUST have before and when the cities are ready to hire scientists -- IW for growth and CoL for obvious reason. How do we get the most from Mansa?

kossin · Mar 11, 2013

I don't think I understand what you're trying to say so take this reply with a grain of salt.

If MM's research is IW >> we should be fine.
If MM's research is CoL >> we should be fine.
If MM's research is Math >> might not be able to trade for it; or we should be fine.
If MM's research is Alpha >> we're screwed. But the spies might be required to scout out the map anyway.

If MM researches anything else... >.<

Duckweed · Mar 11, 2013

The best case is that Mansa wins Judaism and then goes for either IW or Math. However, If Mansa fails Judaism, he is likely go for CoL next, My question is "Will switching research to IW or Math now be better than finishing Alpha as the original plan?" That's why I asked to pause the research for a few turns now for flexibility. 2nd city will introduce some maintenance fee so pause research now won't hurt.

bestsss · Mar 11, 2013

War should favor iron working as it grants city attack unit. So imo, we shall finish alphabet as soon as we can.
We have 10coins in the bank, although that won't be enough to finish alphabet at 100%.

kossin · Mar 11, 2013

Ah ok.

According to test game, MM would get Judaism by T23 if he beelines it.

Some investigation:

Spoiler :

It took 15 turns for MM to get either Polytheism or Meditation.
We know Budd went on IBT T7-T8, so ~7 turns for AI.
We know Hindu went on IBT T9-T10, so ~9 turns for AI.

He likely put 6 turns into Meditation, then since he does not go before the AI that got Buddhism, switched to Poly>Mono path.

An AI that directly beelines Judaism (Poly>Mono) should get it IBT T21-22, making MM switch techs IBT T21-T22.
This will most likely make him switch to CoL (T22) which he seems to complete in ~20 turns (T42), maybe a few more in real game due to worker steal.

Conclusion
We probably have ~10 turns margin, which is not enough to complete IW. (~17 turns)

EDIT: furthermore, Alphabet could allow to build research (if we're desperate) to speed up the next tech... but that's probably not going to happen.

SGOTM 17 - Plastic Ducks

jolly yellow giant

Deity

everything

jolly yellow giant

everything

King

Settler

Deity

jolly yellow giant

Deity

Praise Vivec!

Emperor

King

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Emperor

Deity

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