YossarianLives
Deity
Ok, nobody was against this idea, so unless there are serious objections posted in the next day, I'll send this PM to r_rolo:
Timer dicussion
- Thread starter classical_hero
- Start date
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Very good. The Portuguese finish is great too. 
For the record... I'm not too keen on the idea of a co-admin. r_rolo1 has gotten the job done and I would hate to offend him by suggesting that he needs "help"
If he needs help let him say so.
Has r_rolo committed some agregious dereliction(sp) of duty that makes us think we need a co-admin?
Also... it is worth mentioning that I would rather avoid having a "CFC admin v. RB admin" situation in any way shape or form. The mere appearance of such a thing could prove very damaging to the perception of the game, and should be avoided at all costs.
If he needs help let him say so.
Has r_rolo committed some agregious dereliction(sp) of duty that makes us think we need a co-admin?
Also... it is worth mentioning that I would rather avoid having a "CFC admin v. RB admin" situation in any way shape or form. The mere appearance of such a thing could prove very damaging to the perception of the game, and should be avoided at all costs.
IF AND ONLY IF it is absolutely imperative and game-breaking that we MUST have a co-admin at all costs... Then I feel strongly that they should be from CFC.
RegentMan
Deity
Very good point Sommers. I'm inclined to agree.
YossarianLives
Deity
Since objections have been raised, I wont send anything until we get team consensus on what we want to do.
r_rolo definitely hasnt done anything egregious in this game, and I really appreciate his willingness to take on the thankless job of admin. My only concern is that he seems somewhat absent from this game. So far it hasnt been a big deal, but I could foresee a situation where we cannot continue playing without an admin ruling (such as a request for a reload), so I just wanted to have a back-up in place to keep the game moving in this type of circumstance.
He took about 3 weeks to approve the request to reduce the turn timer from 48 hours to 44 hours. When I emailed and pmed him about the Spanish email with a screenshot, he took a week to acknowledge my email, and then never got back to me with a decision. In November and again in December, Toxo of WPC posted asking if r_rolo was still admin because he had emailed and pmed him on several occasions without a reply. r_rolo never weighed in on the discussion we were having about reducing the turn timer during wartime. Most recently, Ceiliazul asked if he could approve the reduction of the turn timer during war turns. Its been almost 2 weeks without a public response. I was happy to hear that r_rolo has contacted the game host about this, but still no action or public comments have been made. Also, I just checked out his profile, and the last post he made on CFC was over a month ago.
So, I dont think he has made any bad decisions. Its just that if he isnt following this game closely, then it might be a good idea to get an admin who is.
Regarding the CFC admin vs RB admin issue, I really dont see it as a concern. I trust that neither r_rolo nor Plako would make decisions based on which site they have the most loyalty to.
r_rolo definitely hasnt done anything egregious in this game, and I really appreciate his willingness to take on the thankless job of admin. My only concern is that he seems somewhat absent from this game. So far it hasnt been a big deal, but I could foresee a situation where we cannot continue playing without an admin ruling (such as a request for a reload), so I just wanted to have a back-up in place to keep the game moving in this type of circumstance.
He took about 3 weeks to approve the request to reduce the turn timer from 48 hours to 44 hours. When I emailed and pmed him about the Spanish email with a screenshot, he took a week to acknowledge my email, and then never got back to me with a decision. In November and again in December, Toxo of WPC posted asking if r_rolo was still admin because he had emailed and pmed him on several occasions without a reply. r_rolo never weighed in on the discussion we were having about reducing the turn timer during wartime. Most recently, Ceiliazul asked if he could approve the reduction of the turn timer during war turns. Its been almost 2 weeks without a public response. I was happy to hear that r_rolo has contacted the game host about this, but still no action or public comments have been made. Also, I just checked out his profile, and the last post he made on CFC was over a month ago.
So, I dont think he has made any bad decisions. Its just that if he isnt following this game closely, then it might be a good idea to get an admin who is.
Regarding the CFC admin vs RB admin issue, I really dont see it as a concern. I trust that neither r_rolo nor Plako would make decisions based on which site they have the most loyalty to.
It's not about their personal honor or motivations, its about perception.
It is very important to avoid the perception of bias, almost as important as avoiding actual bias.
Was it you who said that you saw the map plako made as being an "RB-style" map? The way I took this, was not that plako would or intend to bias the mapp in RB's favor, but just that as a RB member, he would naturally tend to think like them when making a map and make a map that was similar to the kind they were accustomed to playing on.
It is exactly this kind of perception that I want to avoid raising. I think if our only issue with r_rolo is that he doesen't respond quickly, that is not a good enough reason to replace him as admin... And that's exactly what this would be... because if he takes a week to respond now, he won't bother responding after we appoint a "backup." He will just let the "backup" handle things.
YossarianLives
Deity
Well, it's been another five days and still no answer from r_rolo regarding the timer issue. I know Sommers doesn't think that slow responses are enough of an issue to try to seek a replacement, but I disagree. Something like this really could kill the game if we were unable to continue playing turns waiting on an admin decision (such as in the case of a requested reload), and it takes several weeks to hear anything.
However, there has also been no additional team comment in the past five days, so maybe I am the only one concerned about this. I'll post a poll tonight for the team to weigh in on whether or not we want to propose to the other teams to ask for Plako's help with admin duties. If most of the team disagrees with this, or if we don't get anyone voting in the poll (fewer than 6 or 7 members voicing an opinion one way or another), then I will drop it.
However, there has also been no additional team comment in the past five days, so maybe I am the only one concerned about this. I'll post a poll tonight for the team to weigh in on whether or not we want to propose to the other teams to ask for Plako's help with admin duties. If most of the team disagrees with this, or if we don't get anyone voting in the poll (fewer than 6 or 7 members voicing an opinion one way or another), then I will drop it.
YossarianLives
Deity
Ok, I created a poll for this.
Note that the proposed message is different than the one I had posted earlier. When this discussion was occurring, I noticed Plako reading our team forum so I PM'ed him asking if this would be something he would consider. He said he is available but not as a co-admin, so I needed to change the message a bit.
If we don't want to add Plako as an admin, then I think we need to determine some way for the teams to vote on issues themselves when we can't get an admin ruling. I feel like this was brought up earlier in the public thread and it didn't go anywhere, but maybe now some teams would feel differently.
Note that the proposed message is different than the one I had posted earlier. When this discussion was occurring, I noticed Plako reading our team forum so I PM'ed him asking if this would be something he would consider. He said he is available but not as a co-admin, so I needed to change the message a bit.
If we don't want to add Plako as an admin, then I think we need to determine some way for the teams to vote on issues themselves when we can't get an admin ruling. I feel like this was brought up earlier in the public thread and it didn't go anywhere, but maybe now some teams would feel differently.
CFC Asking for an RB player to be apointed admin undermines our efforts to create an anti-RB alliance. We are in the middle of trying to build an anti-RB alliance. CP is already suspicious of us being too cozy with RB and now we propose to make an RB player the game admin??? WTF?!? How do you think that will be percieved by other teams like CP and CivFr? There will be players that immediately suspect that we are in cahoots with RB. Perception is critical here. IMO this admin thing is not worth the risk of negative perception, especially not now, while we are in the middle of trying to get an anti-RB alliance off the ground. Can't we at least wait until AFTER RB is defeated?
If someone on one of the other teams wants to propose that Plako be made the new admin fine, we can vote on it. But this proposal can not, MUST NOT come from us. It will raise doubts in our potential allies' minds and potentially ruin our chances to form an alliance to defeat RB and WE WILL LOSE. Is this really worth losing the game over?
If someone on one of the other teams wants to propose that Plako be made the new admin fine, we can vote on it. But this proposal can not, MUST NOT come from us. It will raise doubts in our potential allies' minds and potentially ruin our chances to form an alliance to defeat RB and WE WILL LOSE. Is this really worth losing the game over?
Yossa, I wanted to remind you of how you presented this to the team. 1) r_rolo hasn't done anything egregious to warrant replacement 2) You are worried about some highly theoretical, hypothetical, has not happened yet situation that MIGHT, MAYBE, PERHAPS occur sometime in the distant future... maybe 3) and JUST AS A PRECAUTION against this theoretical, hypothetical situation you want to talk about us having a "BACKUP"
Then you put up a poll for us to vote to COMPLETLY REPLACE the game admin IN 4 DAYS!. Again. Why the rush!?
Something you said in the other thread disturbed me
It sounds like you are viewing this as a contest to be won between you and I. I do not see it that way and I wish that you did not see it that way either. This is not a "my-side vs. your side" issue, and viewing it competitively will cloud the issue as both "sides" try to win. To me , this is about discussing what is best for the team and what puts us in the best position to win the game. I wish we could discuss for a while the merits of why putting Plako in charge asthe new admin helps us win rather than just say "We are on opposite sides! Vote Now! Vote Now! May the best man win! Here we go!"
OK, so Yossa, you made a decision to send this unless there were objections. I objected, then you changed it to
Nobody responded, except me, with additional objections, which hardly constitutes team consensus to do anything, certainly not to change the admin, certainly not to send the email and certainly not to post a poll. NOBODY suggested the issue be polled. So then in the face of ZERO team consensus (after saying you would wait for consensus) you say:
What happened to waiting on team consensus? (We spent pages and pages arguing about this on team Kaz with people looking up definitions etc) Polling is NOT consensus building. In many ways it is the opposite of consensus building.
Not to mention the fact that you state you are polling whether to ask for Plako's "help" not whether to boot r_rolo and put Plako in charge.
It seems like you sort of mentally commited to the idea of making Plako admin, posted that you would do so, barring objections, then when you got an objection you mentally moved the goalpoast to "once I get consensus", then when there was no consensus you moved the goalpost to "once I get a majority vote" then Plako refused the job you advertised, you just kinda switched the job title without any real opportunity for discussion... all with the sort of mental commitment that "I need to get this done ASAP."
Again, please don't be offended, as cavscout can attest to, I myself have been guilty of this in the past... you just sort of get your heart set on something and you try to make it happen.
YossarianLives
Deity
Awesome, only a few posts working a "Lawyer Specialist", and our Great Lawyer has been born! I must be Philosophical. 
I'm not offended by anything you posted, Sommers, and I hope that I haven't offended you, either. We have a different opinion about this, and I think it's a good thing that we're having this discussion. Ultimately, we both want what's best for our team and this game.
Alright, lots of points to address. I'll start with your concerns that we're moving too quickly, and that I keep moving the goalpost. Like I said in the other thread, I am not trying to rush anything through, and I am fine with us taking more time to discuss this. However, I don't think it's fair to say that I should have just dropped this because you opposed it and nobody else commented. This is something that I think is important, and that I think could have a negative impact on the game if it is not addressed. Looking at the poll results so far, it seems that a majority of the team that has weighed in actually agrees with me. A lot of the time, I think that a lack of comments does mean that the "silent" team members generally agree. I wasn't on team Kaz so I don't know what conclusions were reached there, but I thought running a poll would be a great way to get the team lurkers out of the woodworks and sharing their opinions. I actually think this worked.
I had not even considered the possibility that anyone would suspect that this out-of-game proposal would be related to in-game collusion between CFC and RB. That just isn't the way I think about it. We must be able to separate what's happening in game, with what's happening out of game. Just like the Spaniards attacking us did not make us think they are bad people, in fact we really admired their class in sending us a message. However, maybe not everyone sees this the same way, and I understand that is something we should take into account. I do not want this to have a negative impact on our team's chances of winning the game. I also don't think this decision should be made based on which admin will rule most in our favor, thus enhancing our chances of winning. This should be based on what keeps the game moving and fun for all parties involved, and so it should be neutral as far as enhancing or decreasing any individual team's chances of winning. Who wants to win based on an admin decision, anyway?
I am not committed to installing Plako as admin at all costs. I am committed to making sure that this game runs as smoothly as possible. If we can foresee problems, let's be pro-active and address them! r_rolo is not acting efficiently in the admin role. That's fine, not all games even need admins. But then let's figure out how we will keep this game moving if someone asks for a pause, a re-load, or needs a rules clarification that could be spoiler-ish if they post it publically. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears. I'd love to hear some suggestions from you, Sommers, rather than just arguments about why my idea won't work.
Alright, the last thing I'm going to post is actually going to give you fuel for your fire. I was re-reading Plako's PM yesterday, and there was something that gave me a little concern that I hadn't initially noticed. This is what he wrote to me.
I would want to make sure that Plako is committed to making decisions based on the rules as written, especially if there is a rule that was agreed to by the majority of the teams that Plako thinks is an unfair rule. Obviously we don't want a situation where a legal move like a "Change Civics" spy mission is declared "unfair" by the admin and disallowed. I believe that the wording is just due to Plako's first language not being english, and he would follow the rules as we agreed to them, but I would want clarification from Plako before actually proposing to make him admin. I also understand that this could change the votes of some team members who have already participated in the poll, so we'll have to figure out how to handle that if it is the case. I think it's fine for people to just post "I had voted for option X, but I now want to change my vote to option Y"
The most important thing to me is we solve this problem of not having an admin. r_rolo cannot truly be considered the admin at this point, since he is not making any admin decisions. If the answer is not to ask Plako to step in, then we need to figure out another alternative.
I'm not offended by anything you posted, Sommers, and I hope that I haven't offended you, either. We have a different opinion about this, and I think it's a good thing that we're having this discussion. Ultimately, we both want what's best for our team and this game.
Alright, lots of points to address. I'll start with your concerns that we're moving too quickly, and that I keep moving the goalpost. Like I said in the other thread, I am not trying to rush anything through, and I am fine with us taking more time to discuss this. However, I don't think it's fair to say that I should have just dropped this because you opposed it and nobody else commented. This is something that I think is important, and that I think could have a negative impact on the game if it is not addressed. Looking at the poll results so far, it seems that a majority of the team that has weighed in actually agrees with me. A lot of the time, I think that a lack of comments does mean that the "silent" team members generally agree. I wasn't on team Kaz so I don't know what conclusions were reached there, but I thought running a poll would be a great way to get the team lurkers out of the woodworks and sharing their opinions. I actually think this worked.
I had not even considered the possibility that anyone would suspect that this out-of-game proposal would be related to in-game collusion between CFC and RB. That just isn't the way I think about it. We must be able to separate what's happening in game, with what's happening out of game. Just like the Spaniards attacking us did not make us think they are bad people, in fact we really admired their class in sending us a message. However, maybe not everyone sees this the same way, and I understand that is something we should take into account. I do not want this to have a negative impact on our team's chances of winning the game. I also don't think this decision should be made based on which admin will rule most in our favor, thus enhancing our chances of winning. This should be based on what keeps the game moving and fun for all parties involved, and so it should be neutral as far as enhancing or decreasing any individual team's chances of winning. Who wants to win based on an admin decision, anyway?
I am not committed to installing Plako as admin at all costs. I am committed to making sure that this game runs as smoothly as possible. If we can foresee problems, let's be pro-active and address them! r_rolo is not acting efficiently in the admin role. That's fine, not all games even need admins. But then let's figure out how we will keep this game moving if someone asks for a pause, a re-load, or needs a rules clarification that could be spoiler-ish if they post it publically. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears. I'd love to hear some suggestions from you, Sommers, rather than just arguments about why my idea won't work.
Alright, the last thing I'm going to post is actually going to give you fuel for your fire. I was re-reading Plako's PM yesterday, and there was something that gave me a little concern that I hadn't initially noticed. This is what he wrote to me.
I would want to make sure that Plako is committed to making decisions based on the rules as written, especially if there is a rule that was agreed to by the majority of the teams that Plako thinks is an unfair rule. Obviously we don't want a situation where a legal move like a "Change Civics" spy mission is declared "unfair" by the admin and disallowed. I believe that the wording is just due to Plako's first language not being english, and he would follow the rules as we agreed to them, but I would want clarification from Plako before actually proposing to make him admin. I also understand that this could change the votes of some team members who have already participated in the poll, so we'll have to figure out how to handle that if it is the case. I think it's fine for people to just post "I had voted for option X, but I now want to change my vote to option Y"
The most important thing to me is we solve this problem of not having an admin. r_rolo cannot truly be considered the admin at this point, since he is not making any admin decisions. If the answer is not to ask Plako to step in, then we need to figure out another alternative.
I did not say that. I said that we should have discussion and try to build consensus (as you stated you would do) rather than just post a pol and act on the result.
That is a somewhat dubious conclusion isn't it?
1. At least one player did not fully know what the poll was truly about. The poll language itself is somewhat deceptive on its face because it implies that we are adding Plako as a backup to help r_rolo instead of the truth which is that you want to fire r_rolo and replace him with Plako.
Please respond to my concern, (highlighted by classical_hero's post) that we did not discuss long enough and as a result people are voting on the "backup-admin" proposal you originally presented rather than the replacement of r_rolo. You can't say people "agree" with you when we have proof that people did not truly know what they were voting on.
2. IMNSHO The poll has a fatal flaw. The good-old "strawman" option. Right now there is not a "majority" in agreement with you. 45% is certainly NOT a majority. The "majority" either abstain or they do not agree. So if you sent the email you would actually be going against the majority. Also, generally speaking, the "abstain" option unnecessarily clouds the poll result. And does abstain mean that you dont have enough info to decide, or that you dont want to discuss this or that you dont care either way?
Remember that you can also "abstain" by just not voting at all.
At a minimum, we need to admit that this is a bad poll and scrap it for now so that discussion can continue.
I will respond to more of what you said later, but to me this line makes Plako as an admin a complete non-starter.
For him to say "Oh yeah... I uhhh... meant that I will follow the rules to the letter... yeah that's the ticket!... I luvs me some rules!"
I appreciate your integrity in posting Plako's note as it is very enlightening and helps us have an honest, informed discussion, but I also wish you saw it as presenting the truth so that we can reach the right decision rather than "adding fuel to my fire." There is no "my fire" there is only OUR TEAM and doing what is best for our team.
plako said:
But Yossa, please, be honest, we already know the answer to that don't we? Plako told you point blank that he IS NOT committed to the rules as written. I mean there was no ambiguity there. Plako did not stutter. He told you he is admining the way he d@mn well pleases, based on what he thinks is fair. So what are you looking for from him at this point?
For him to say "Oh yeah... I uhhh... meant that I will follow the rules to the letter... yeah that's the ticket!... I luvs me some rules!"I appreciate your integrity in posting Plako's note as it is very enlightening and helps us have an honest, informed discussion, but I also wish you saw it as presenting the truth so that we can reach the right decision rather than "adding fuel to my fire." There is no "my fire" there is only OUR TEAM and doing what is best for our team.
YossarianLives
Deity
I don't have a problem scrapping the poll. My intent is not to manipulate anything to get what I want. I am glad the poll got a discussion going. As I've said numerous times, I agree that this decision does not need to be rushed, so the arbitrary 5-day deadline I set can certainly be extended.
I hope that addresses your concern that we have not discussed this long enough.
Plako's first language is not english, so I think that there is a lot of room for interpretation on what he wrote. If Plako's admin philosophy means that he will disregard majority decisions on contentious rules such as the spy missions, then I agree that it would not be appropriate to ask him to be the admin for this game. But here's an example of another interpretation that I think would be just fine. I don't have the rule set in front of me, but let's say the rules call for a pause of no more than 24 hours in a certain situation. And let's say that a team has asked the admin if it is ok to keep the game paused for 28 hours, because that is how long that team will need to get to their turn. Now, I could see Plako's philosophy meaning that he is going to approve the additional 4-hour pause even though that's not how it's written in the rules. In this type of situation, I don't see a problem with the admin doing what he thinks is most fair.
Does that make sense? I'm not sure I explained it clearly.
And regarding your concern in the other thread about me comparing apples to oranges, I disagree with you. If active members of the team make suggestions, whether they be in-game moves, diplo recommendations, or meta-game issues, and no one else comments on them, I really do think that means that most of the team agrees. If one or two active members feel one way, and one or two active members feel a different way, I think it is totally appropriate to try to get input from the rest of the team. I thought a poll would be a good way to do this.
And I really am trying to facilitate an honest and informed discussion, which is why I posted Plako's response. I did see it as presenting the truth, but I could also see you running away with assumptions that Plako could in no way be a qualified admin because of what he wrote, which is exactly what you did, and which is why I used the phrase "adding fuel to your fire".
So again, just to be clear, my objective in this is not to get Plako isntalled as admin. My objective is to resolve the very real problem that the current game admin is neither following this game, nor responding to requests from different teams playing in this game. If there is a better way to resolve this problem, I am all for it.
I hope that addresses your concern that we have not discussed this long enough.
Plako's first language is not english, so I think that there is a lot of room for interpretation on what he wrote. If Plako's admin philosophy means that he will disregard majority decisions on contentious rules such as the spy missions, then I agree that it would not be appropriate to ask him to be the admin for this game. But here's an example of another interpretation that I think would be just fine. I don't have the rule set in front of me, but let's say the rules call for a pause of no more than 24 hours in a certain situation. And let's say that a team has asked the admin if it is ok to keep the game paused for 28 hours, because that is how long that team will need to get to their turn. Now, I could see Plako's philosophy meaning that he is going to approve the additional 4-hour pause even though that's not how it's written in the rules. In this type of situation, I don't see a problem with the admin doing what he thinks is most fair.
Does that make sense? I'm not sure I explained it clearly.
And regarding your concern in the other thread about me comparing apples to oranges, I disagree with you. If active members of the team make suggestions, whether they be in-game moves, diplo recommendations, or meta-game issues, and no one else comments on them, I really do think that means that most of the team agrees. If one or two active members feel one way, and one or two active members feel a different way, I think it is totally appropriate to try to get input from the rest of the team. I thought a poll would be a good way to do this.
And I really am trying to facilitate an honest and informed discussion, which is why I posted Plako's response. I did see it as presenting the truth, but I could also see you running away with assumptions that Plako could in no way be a qualified admin because of what he wrote, which is exactly what you did, and which is why I used the phrase "adding fuel to your fire".
So again, just to be clear, my objective in this is not to get Plako isntalled as admin. My objective is to resolve the very real problem that the current game admin is neither following this game, nor responding to requests from different teams playing in this game. If there is a better way to resolve this problem, I am all for it.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
If he is not going to rule by the rules, then there is no point in asking him to admin.
YossarianLives
Deity
Fair enough. Game admin is a thankless job, just look at the hard time I'm giving to r_rolo. I definitely understand why you wouldn't want it. I hope there's no hard feelings. Thanks for considering the role.
I still think that we need a solution to the admin issue, but I'm out of ideas.
I still think that we need a solution to the admin issue, but I'm out of ideas.
YossarianLives
Deity
I've already posted extensively on how I feel about the admin situation, so I want to mostly stay out of it this time, except to say that I think Team CFC should support this suggestion posted in the Admin Requests thread.
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