Quick fix to destabilise Mongols?

CHEESE!

CHEESE!

On a long nostalgia trip
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Aug 11, 2007
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So in Leoreth's absence, I've noticed that in every single 3000BC American start I've run up, the Mongols are alive and stable, and the game always ends with a long US-Mongol 'Cold War', which is fun for one game but gets a bit dull after three or four. Anybody got a very quick, python-noob-friendly way to destabilise the Mongols, hopefully to just above pre-buff levels?
 
I have noticed the same thing. It is actually an extremely rare oddity to see Mongols collapsed after 1500.
 
I think so yes, I rather see lots of independents (or weak China) in China and Mongolian area around 1500-1900 than anything else.
 
Oh gods, that Mongol empire Tomorrow's Dawn linked to is amazing. I would so love for that to happen every now and then. Although I agree that the Mongols should collapse quickly in about 50% of the games.
 
I don't know. Before their stability was improved, their impact on world affairs was not much different than the seljuks: Wreak havoc, destroy China, collapse into a bunch of independent cities, and consequently break down communication between east and west Eurasia, which is ahistorical since their eventual impact was exactly the opposite.

And while Mongolia tend to survive as a moderately strong state in about 60% of the games (usually backward but top 5 in score), I think the main issue is that China, even when respawning, never (in my experience) returns to anything ressembling dominant status.
 
This thought re-occured to me, but I think somewhere during DoC development,
I suggested that the Mongols be given the Seljuk treatment as a civilization.
If anything, it would suit the Mongols more than the Seljuks.
The downside of course, similarly is that it would effectively make all of Asia
a "blacked-out" zone for centuries, cutting off all trade instead of facilitating it
in some cases like the Mongol Empire actually did.
But I'm not concerned about any sort of historical accuracy in this case
but rather how to improve this on a gameplay basis as much as possible.
 
There should be several Barb spawns in Mongolia, to represent the infighting amongst the Empire after the Great Khan passed away, IMO. That should be enough to take down the AI, while leaving the player with a chance to keep his nation together. After all, making Mongolia like the Seljuks II would quite cut it appropriately due to historical/playability concerns.
 
Tomorrow's Dawn said:
This thought re-occured to me, but I think somewhere during DoC development,
I suggested that the Mongols be given the Seljuk treatment as a civilization.
If anything, it would suit the Mongols more than the Seljuks.
The downside of course, similarly is that it would effectively make all of Asia
a "blacked-out" zone for centuries, cutting off all trade instead of facilitating it
in some cases like the Mongol Empire actually did.
But I'm not concerned about any sort of historical accuracy in this case
but rather how to improve this on a gameplay basis as much as possible.
Click to expand...

How does that improve gameplay?
 
if you want to make a subtle change in their stability the best place to do it is probably the stability penalty which kicks in after a civs scripted "fall" date. you could either move that date back (its 1368 for the Mongols) or change the penalty, which cuts the number of allowable foreign owned tiles for stability purposes by 50% after that date.

the date is set at line 283 in conts.py and the penalty is actually written as a bonus you get before the fall date and it is at line 527 of stability.py.
 
Barbuesque said:
How does that improve gameplay?
Click to expand...

Many civs seem to only collapse in one of two ways:
1. Extreme duress from losing too many cities
2. Extreme inflation from conquering too many cities.

The LEMMING_CITY_ATTACK thing is good, but now it seems that the Mongol Empire
is stable and focused on
development in a fixed area (Mongolia proper, China and Transoxiana), content to develop peacefully,
therefore never experiencing the aforementioned two issues, by the sounds of it.
They don't really form an empire similar to the circumstances that make Gruekiller's Mongols possible, which at least fulfilled the requirements of Reason #2.
If you go back to that post, the Mongols were reported to collapse after the mid-1400s or so after gorging themselves on too many cities.

The main drawback at that point is the wide swathe of independents they'll likely leave in their swathe but I'm not concerned for a few reasons:

1. Russia already respawns very quickly.
2. China & Iran receive scripted respawns.
3. If there are multiple independents alive in a core, the core civ will be bound to respawn eventually,
and the respawned powers I've found in recent versions, do not lean towards aggressiveness.

On the other hand, I like Wondering_Kid's suggestion too, but the Mongols tend to have huge stacks of Keshiks on hand so I don't know how hard that will impact them.
 
Jusos2108 said:
I have noticed the same thing. It is actually an extremely rare oddity to see Mongols collapsed after 1500.
Click to expand...

When I was playing Thailand as Monarch on the normal speed it actually happened it was saved me from conquest.
 
Tomorrow's Dawn said:
On the other hand, I like Wondering_Kid's suggestion too, but the Mongols tend to have huge stacks of Keshiks on hand so I don't know how hard that will impact them.
Click to expand...

Yay, someone supports my idea :lol: It is true, AI Mongols have large stacks of keshiks... But most of the time, they linger around China, Mongolia proper and Manchuria. Sometimes they invade Korea. By the time Mongol conquest goes international, it loses a lot of steam and the empire is already at an economic/technological loss. It simply spreads too thin, and too vastly. For instance, AI Russia 4 out of 5 times repels them after a small scuffle. Sometimes the scuffle prolongs for several centuries, as Russia begins to expand into Siberia and encounters Mongol settlers/soldiers.
But AI Mongolia is still stable. So, proper "motivation" would be needed. That is where the barbarian spawns come in. Some barbarian spawns over Samarkand, Merv, the Silk Road on general. Maybe some spawns over Chechnya, Continental China and Korea, should these locations have been occupied. They don't need to be huge armies per se, just a couple troops; so that the barbarians themselves don't over expand. While a Human Mongol player could overcome this problems with ease, for they will have built a functioning empire; the AI just can't. The AI will lose the frontier lands, encouraging eliminated civs to respawn and encouraging expansion by still existing ones. It will most likely keep Mongolia proper and parts of China, for those parts tend to be thick with Mongol troops.
So yeah, unless AI Mongolia is cunning; it will feel the impact. A careless Human player will do so as well, so it's a win win ;)
 
Wondering Kid said:
Yay, someone supports my idea :lol: It is true, AI Mongols have large stacks of keshiks... But most of the time, they linger around China, Mongolia proper and Manchuria. Sometimes they invade Korea. By the time Mongol conquest goes international, it loses a lot of steam and the empire is already at an economic/technological loss. It simply spreads too thin, and too vastly. For instance, AI Russia 4 out of 5 times repels them after a small scuffle. Sometimes the scuffle prolongs for several centuries, as Russia begins to expand into Siberia and encounters Mongol settlers/soldiers.
But AI Mongolia is still stable. So, proper "motivation" would be needed. That is where the barbarian spawns come in. Some barbarian spawns over Samarkand, Merv, the Silk Road on general. Maybe some spawns over Chechnya, Continental China and Korea, should these locations have been occupied. They don't need to be huge armies per se, just a couple troops; so that the barbarians themselves don't over expand. While a Human Mongol player could overcome this problems with ease, for they will have built a functioning empire; the AI just can't. The AI will lose the frontier lands, encouraging eliminated civs to respawn and encouraging expansion by still existing ones. It will most likely keep Mongolia proper and parts of China, for those parts tend to be thick with Mongol troops.
So yeah, unless AI Mongolia is cunning; it will feel the impact. A careless Human player will do so as well, so it's a win win ;)
Click to expand...

Alternatively, I have another solution.
Let Iran, Russia & China flip Mongol troops in their zone on respawn.
I don't know why that isn't the case already (Sometimes, I've seen Chinese Keshiks but in others, they're conspicuously missing).
 
I recently played a game where the Mongols didn't last past 1500 A.D. Heck, they were actually kinda weak, and only managed to expand a little bit. I was playing as Arabia.
 
In every 3000BC game I play the Chinese never collapse on their own, become incredibly powerful and conquer/vassalize all of their neighbors, and almost always kill the Mongols on spawn. How about destabilizing China?
 
^This was discussed before in another thread, but Leoreth was already in agreement that the Mongols needed a nerf. So it's an eventuality when the next revision of SVN continues.

But in any case, the majority of users seem to have the opposite experience of you, backed up with many of the more recent photos
(esp. some of Jusos's Domination games), spanning the last two months, necessitating some form of a nerfbat.
Most of the people here play standard settings (or Marathon speed but still on Monarch difficulty) if speed and difficulty are a factor; perhaps your settings are non-standard, producing these results.
Or perhaps if you want to show the contrary, you could upload some screenshots of what you're experiencing.
 
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