SGOTM 17 - Plastic Ducks

Looks good, we have a lot of food available ! Pyramids are definitely a good choice on this map.

The bloody jungle made this start rather difficult to optimize but we're getting through the nasty part... another ~30 turns and we can probably tune down the micro.

post-CoL:
Eastern banana could be combined with a part of the Ivory.
Then gems+Ivory+banana. (although this one is more important for happiness, should be first)
And if we really need it (probably not), pigs+rest of Ivory up north.

Very quickly, cause I don't have much time :

@all : test game updated

@doshin : at first glance, your micro is very close to what I had in mind. Will take a closer look tonight.

Duckweed said:

We have been encountering low odd decision all the way.

Looking at the tech trade screen, Mansa definitely is not researching Monotheism atm. He is researching something big, hopefully IW.. So, yes, we can sign peace treaty now.

Edit: I think we should wait until T48 so that he won't demand Alpha.

Click to expand...

I just noticed:


I'm totally out of the loop on the tech side of things... so sorry if this has been covered, but do we have a Plan A/B/C (etc.) for trading for Code of Laws? Mansa seems to self-tech Alpha/Mathematics/Monarchy from the tests I've run (MC very rarely), and Alpha is already 100+ cheaper than CoLs.

Good point. I suppose this means we can't delay Mathematics research as we will need to dump some beakers into CoL. Depending on when he gets IW, we might have some luck with Math+Alpha <-> CoL+IW.

I wont be a great fan switching to caste before we whip the libraries. So, I think we have some time.
That reminds me - I believe we need monotheism ourselves. Mansa has some good chance to switch to spread mode after the war. Unfortunately I do not think we would be able to get both organized religion and representation in one anarchy turn.

As for the Code of Laws, I always thought we'd research something else to trade for. There are not so many options: Metal Casting, Horse Back Riding, Construction, Currency, Calendar (Aesthetics is useless w/ single trading partner, Monarchy even more useless).
If HBR provided something short term it'd have been my choice as Mansa is unlikely to research it himself and I do think we will need the jumbos, and horse units are food vs elephants so he'd be welcome to get some.

As short term goal - we have to explore the other land mass/meet more AIs and spies should be able to provide that.

bestsss said:

spies

Click to expand...

Yes! Just 1 spy could provide so much intel... and potential trades.

Although I'd rather load 2 on the galley and send them in different directions - spies are so fun. They establish contact just out of nowhere.

Hey guys.
Just to let you know that I won't be able to play until tomorrow evening.

Doshin said:

I just noticed:

Spoiler :

Mansa is in Organized Religion.

I'm totally out of the loop on the tech side of things... so sorry if this has been covered, but do we have a Plan A/B/C (etc.) for trading for Code of Laws? Mansa seems to self-tech Alpha/Mathematics/Monarchy from the tests I've run (MC very rarely), and Alpha is already 100+ cheaper than CoLs.

Click to expand...

There are various choices.

1st, the Math trade opens 2 additional techs -- Calendar and construction, both of them are good choices for AIs.

The fastest way is investing certain amount beakers (511-438/1.2)/1.2 = ~121 beakers (needs test to confirm) to CoL to enable the Alpha<->CoL trade. It's cost redundantly.

Another choice is researching other techs like Aes for the Alpha + ? <-> CoL. It's cost efficiently, but slow and risky.

Our beaker output would be miserable after settling 6 cities and we must get CoL in time when the GP farms are mature.

@Bebekija

The position of axe does not look good to me, the defense of the Pig/Cow/Banana (6th city) is a bit thin. I'd like Axe near mids city to be flexible, or we need another unit for the safety of 6th city.

I just did some testing. I'd amend the PPP to the following (Workers numbered as per test file. Newly produced Worker = "Worker 6." Worker on Rice = "Worker 5."):


T46

PlastDukeberg. Build Research. Work Pig/Lake.
Bronze Beaver. Switch to Granary.
Worker 6. Move 1NW.
Worker 4. Move 2N. Road (2/2).
Worker 5. Move 1W.
Worker 3. Chop (1/3).
Worker 1. Mine (3/4).
Worker 2. Road (2/2).

T47

Bronze Beaver. Whip Granary. Immediately switch to Research.
Pyramid City. Work Banana Hill and Grassland Hill.
Worker 1. Mine (4/4).
Worker 6. Road (1/2).
Worker 4. Move 1NE.
Worker 5. Chop (1/3).
Worker 2. Move 3N.
Worker 3. Chop (2/3).

Science at 70%. (9 gold banked, -9GPT)


T48

Mathematics. Science at 0%.
PlastDukeberg. Switch to Settler. Work Pigs, Grassland Hill.
Pyramid City. Work Rice, Banana Hill. Switch to Pyramids.
Bronze Beaver. Switch to Granary.
Stone Island. Switch to Work Boat.

Worker 1. Move 1SE. Road (1/2).
Worker 2. Chop (1/3).
Worker 3. Chop (3/3).
Worker 4. Road (1/2).
Worker 5. Chop (2/3).
Worker 6. Road (2/2).

T49

PlastDukeberg. Switch to Settler.
Bronze Beaver. Switch to Worker.

Worker 1. Road (2/2).
Worker 2. Chop (2/3).
Worker 3. Move 1N2W. Chop (1/3).
Worker 4. Road (2/2).
Worker 5. Chop (3/3).
Worker 6. Move 2N1E.

Settler 5. Move 4N.


T50

PlastDukesberg. Switch to Axe. Work Pigs, Banana, Lake.

Settler 5. Move 1N. Found city.

Worker 1. Move 3N3E. Camp (1/4).
Worker 2. Chop (3/3).
Worker 3. Chop and cancel (2/3).
Worker 4. Camp (2/4).
Worker 5. Move 2S1W.
Worker 6. Chop (1/3).

---

I think this is the optimal way to play for a few reasons:

We hit Mathematics in T48 without compromising the capital's growth.

T50, two Workers are available to Camp the Ivory. We can improve the tile a turn sooner.

The Granary in Elephant Bling will be chopped just before the foodbank is halfway full.

Worker 6 can move to the capital's BFC on T54 and complete the final turn of chopping the Forest 1NW. This will let us complete an Axe or a Settler. From there, the Worker can move to chop one of Mid City's inner culture Forests (1N of Mid City).

Worker 5 can build a road on T51-52. Mid City's borders pop on T53, so it can then move back inside to start chopping on the previously roaded Forest (T53/4/5). Once this Forest is clear, Worker 2 can move onto the tile on T55, move 1SW, chop and cancel (1/3). We then have two Workers in place to help with City #6.

All of this is suggestive, not prescriptive.

---

@All

In the capital, we can pick between the following build orders:

T53: Settler
T54: Axe

or vice versa

T53: Axe
T54: Settler

Do we whip the Settler and chop into an Axe, or do we whip the Axe and chop into a Settler? City #6 will be connected to the trade network either way. Axe first is safer vs barbs. Settler first is safer vs Mansa, if he tries to claim the spot (Pigs + Marble?).

Incidentally, I'd like to build two further Axes for safety shortly after T50. The rail network serves to funnel barbarians towards city #6.

Bebekija said:

Hey guys.
Just to let you know that I won't be able to play until tomorrow evening.

Click to expand...

I guess that's today so good luck Monsieur

Played to the beginning of T49 but I really have to go now.

Everything is running according to the plan. I ceasefired with MM on T48 so he's willing to trade with us now. Still no IW though.

@Duck : I moved the Axe around that lake but now he will go straight South. There's another one coming from the capital as well

@all : new test game attached. You will notice that I renamed all cities and workers according to the live save, so it will now be easier to write PPPs and not be confused every time.

So, what's our next tech finally? CoL or Construction? Right now I didn't choose our next tech, but iIrc we have only 4 turns left before we have to pick one.

We should check each turn to see if an Alpha + Math for CoLs trade is possible. If it gets shut down, we will know that Mansa is researching one of these and not Iron Working.

CoLs can serve as a temporary placeholder while we accumulate some gold and see where Mansa goes in terms of techs.

After City #6 is settled, barb safety has to be prioritized, but I would also like to have a Spy produced or being produced in the near future. I would also favor moving our Galley in a westward direction right now, since it will take ten turns to reach the last visible point on the rail network, and at least 15 more to continue around the landmass. Ideally our Spy will jump on board at some point. Meeting just one further AI would be huge for us.

Bebekija said:

So, what's our next tech finally? CoL or Construction? Right now I didn't choose our next tech, but iIrc we have only 4 turns left before we have to pick one.

Click to expand...

CoL and it must be picked immediately, we can only bank the beakers in the beginning 5 turns. Could you upload the save? we could check whether he is researching Math or Alpha, that's the worst case.

Duckweed said:

Could you upload the save? we could check whether he is researching Math or Alpha, that's the worst case.

Click to expand...

How would you do that? By checking which trades are allowed and which are not?

Anyway, save uploaded.

The turnlog shows that MM researched Monotheism on T44, I hadn't noticed it, sorry....

I finally had some time to run some quick tests so I am now ready to play the next few turns, so let me know when you're done checking.

Ok, good news: Mansa is not researching neither Maths, not Alphabet. As you see the trade is allowed ("do you find this offer tempting?")
The value of our trade is: 641, Mansa proposition: 628... If he is researching anything of the above, he has put really, really few beakers (i.e. not possible for so many turns).
Note: he won't trade Polytheism+Code Of Law<=> Maths+Alphabet at immortal.

Bebekija said:

How would you do that? By checking which trades are allowed and which are not?

bestsss explained it. The fundamental concept is fair trade, not really since the beakers needed for us are 20% more expensive than AI. If Mansa is researching Math or Alpha atm, you will see that he won't agree with Math or Alpha <-> Poly+Med trade since he has already put beakers for a few turns (that's 25+ bpt).

The turnlog shows that MM researched Monotheism on T44, I hadn't noticed it, sorry....

Click to expand...

That's not a bad news, although we might get IW a few turns later, he will send us missionaries earlier. Let's assume that he needs 4~5 turns for Med + Mono and 8~9 turns for IW, we can expect T51~T53 IW.

It seems that war does not have very significant effect on his choice. Just because that Med and Mono are much cheaper than IW, he researched both despite war threatening.

Played to the beginning of T51.

Still no IW in sight, but the value of Alpha + Maths has not changed according to the tech screen.

A little bit more of scouting after settling city 5....


I've stopped there because I realized that there hasn't been any PPP for turns T51 onwards. So I will write one tomorrow, but basically, the builds are :
PlastDuke : Axe / Settler / Unit (Archer?) / Library or Settler (city 7?)
BB : Worker / Library /
StoneIsland : WB / LH / Library ? Research ? Spy ?
Mid City : Mids (completed on T58)
C5 : Granary / Unit (Spy?)
C6 : Granary

Worker micro :
Worker 1, 2, and 3 chop around Mid City
Worker 4 chops 2 forests around capital
Worker 5, 6 chop then (hopefully) improve gem (or chop around Mid City for an earlier Mids ?)

Those are the general directions, I'd have to refine it .

Upload the new save so that I can take a quick look.

Note: Stop moving warrior further to reduce risk, move it 1S. Move the gem city archer 2N.

Edit:

Why mids completed on T58? That's Remember that both Doshin and you got it on T53/54 in your tests.
After taking a look at T49 save, we need more tests next, especially after getting IW (if we don't see it on T53, we must do some serious adjustment. )

Not sure what you built in these 2 turn, Things for sure

Capital: settler
Stone city: WB->gra->LH
Fur city: Worker

Duckweed said:

Upload the new save so that I can take a quick look.

Note: Stop moving warrior further to reduce risk, move it 1S. Move the gem city archer 2N.

Click to expand...

Done.
Moving the archer 2N will allow a few tiles to spawn barbs in the east, though.