SGOTM 17 - Plastic Ducks

Our knowledge of the south-west ends at a Grassland Hill


There is obviously some sort of north-south mountain range blocking off much, if not all of the west:


There are a few gaps, perhaps 3 tiles that could provide access... but I am inclined to believe that the west is entirely closed off via a mountain range.

As to the Grassland Hill...


... it looks to me like there is a mountain to the immediate south, west, and north-west. The south-west tile cannot be seen.

We know that a barb city is accessible in the north-west:


It will take ten turns for our Galley to reach the Grassland Hill. I think it can carry on further after that. With any luck, we can circle (what I assume) is our continent. If necessary, a Spy can then travel to the area west of Timbuktu and make the crossing.

The downside is one less fogbuster in the east (two more tiles left open) and maintenance will, on some turns, be slightly higher. City #5 should probably build a Granary ---> Archer.

I'd like to move the Galley now. We have Alphabet, so I'd like to be proactive here. Presumably we'll trade Alpha to Mansa at some stage and, if the other AI are accessible via the west, it'd be nice to trade Alpha with them on the same turn before Mansa can.

BTW, an old post:

Doshin said:

Also, a very small point of interest. I moved the Scout to the NE corner of the peninsula (a dangerous move, since I thought crossing a river would only consume a point of movement on a railroad when in fact it consumed two. Luckily no animals spawned in the West, but still... my bad. )

Anyway, for what it's worth, the move revealed:

Spoiler :

Contrast our test map:

Spoiler :

There is either another island or larger landmass 4 tiles to the south of the peninsula. Or the island that we can see is larger than we thought.

Click to expand...

One possible scenario is that several AI are accessible via Galleys in the west, and others are accessible via Galleons in the south.

Only reason I see to favor Axe>Spy is barb defense, nothing else. If we think barbs are still likely a problem from the west, then I can understand. Otherwise, Spy.

I believe we can achieve T55 Mids if we strip Gem city or the capital of one Worker to go chop immediately.
My preference would go for leaving one worker in the Capital.

Do you want me to investigate this option or would you rather have me play ASAP following the T58 plan?

~~

@koss : if I understand you correctly, you would not produce a 2nd Axe but a Spy directly, or are you talking about a 3rd Axe?

I see no reason for more units right now unless they are needed for barb defense (which I can't really assess as I have not been following that much the last month). Given our number of cities, I'd like to think barb waves would already have come about.

Perhaps it is that number of cities + pre-settled barb cities limit has been crossed so there will be no more wave.

The barb wave doesn't come until ~T60 in the test game. I am 95% sure we should build an Axe before a Spy.

@Bebekija

Post whichever PPP you think best (or both, and fully abandon your parenting duties ).

Bringing a worker back from Gem city allows to build the Mids on T56.

I'm not very satisifed with the micro though, I'll have to work on it a bit more before posting the plan.

So still one more day of patience my friends....

Are there barb cities in the test game?

17 AI cities and 4 of ours. No barb cities, but they start to appear very soon.

PPP to Mids completion :

T51 :
PDB work Pigs/Nana/GHill
Axe moves in a general SW direction towards Cows site
Galley moves towards BB
Archer 2 moves 2N
~~
Ouvrier 1 moves 2N of MidCity
Ouvrier 2 roads
Ouvrier 3 moves 1N2E of MidCity

T52 :
PDB grows to P4 and starts Settler
~~
Ouvrier 1 chops
Ouvrier 3 chops
Ouvrier moves 1E of Mid City
worker 2 moves 1S to chop or improves Gems if IW is in

T53 :
MidCity works BH + GH
Ouvrier 2 moves 1NE and chops
Ouvrier 4 moves 1N2E of MidCity
Ouvrier moves 1N of Mid City

T54 :
PDB whips
BB builds beakers
SI starts granary
MidCity works Rice + BH
~~
WB to Crabs
~~
Ouvrier 4 moves 2N1E of MidCity
Ouvrier chops
Ouvrier 5 1S ans pastures (if we don't have IW , then 1NE to road)

T55 :
PDB : OF into Axe
~~
Settler move 1S of MidCity
~~
Ouvrier 1 moves 1E
Ouvrier 3 moves 2S1E and chops(3/3)
Ouvrier 4 chops

T56 :
PDB OF into Spy
MidCity work green Hill to finish Mids
(IvoryCoast starts Archer (if Granary has been chopped))
~~
Settler 1S of Cows
New Axe moves 1NE
~~
Ouvrier 2 1SW , chop and cancel
Ouvrier 3 2S2E and chops


~~~~

Test save attached.

The save looks good.

If we could get IW (Math<->IW trade) in the next 2 turns, then the Fur city needs 2 workers at least, send the worker in capital there.

Edit: Took a careful look at the real save, there's no barbarian culture around the south mountains, so there's low chance of passage in the south before Optics. Possible case is that south passage needs galleons and north passage needs galleys + conquering barbarian cities. I would not move the galley and produce spy before scouting with other units.

Short term goals

1. Secure mids
2. grow Pig/Cow and Fur city as fast as possible, needs 3 and 2+ workers on them.
3. Secure CoL<->Alpha trade as soon as possible, which means we need to build research for a while. Except Stone city and mids city, all others can build research, including the Pig/Cow city since it only needs a granary which is from chop.

@Bebekija

The test save has 2 more in Mid city on T49 than the current save:



----

I played around with the latest test file (readjusting Mid City's food), and it's very hard to improve upon your version (Bebe), but I think the save file I attach is marginally better. The key differences:

• My PDB is at size 3 and could be at size 4 next turn (i.e. it can whip an Axe or Spy on T57). Your PDB is at size 2, and has a few more hammers.
  
• 2 Workers are immediately available to help City #6. The Cow will be improved on T58, the Forest chopped on T59.
  
• I manage to build the Pyramids in BBB for one turn after it finishes the Worker. This nets us 16 without compromising a T57 Mids. (You might be able to work this into your save too.)
  
• Both saves improve the Gems on T60.
  
• I have one less Worker in the vicinity of the capital (i.e. one less to help chop, road, or irrigate the Banana).

Take a look anyway, and let me know if you'd like a PPP. If you prefer your version, play on, and good luck!

One small point to add. If we keep the Galley in its current location, we save 1 by the time T57 rolls around:


Why don't we move the Galley now and hold off from producing a Spy, at least for the time being? If the Galley can pass the mountain chain and circle our continent, we can build a Spy. If it's a dead-end, we lose very little.

Duckweed said:

The save looks good.

If we could get IW (Math<->IW trade) in the next 2 turns, then the Fur city needs 2 workers at least, send the worker in capital there.
That was the plan

Edit: Took a careful look at the real save, there's no barbarian culture around the south mountains, so there's low chance of passage in the south before Optics. Possible case is that south passage needs galleons and north passage needs galleys + conquering barbarian cities. I would not move the galley and produce spy before scouting with other units.
The point of the galley move was to load the spy near BB then take him across the river of Cow city, right onto the rails. It should save 1-2 turns comparing to moving him by foot to the same position. Later on, it can help moving the peninsula workers West in just one turn.

Click to expand...

Doshin said:

@Bebekija

The test save has 2 more in Mid city on T49 than the current save:
I wonder how I did that...Doesn't change too much the planthough, just have to work the 2nd hill one turn sooner.

Take a look anyway, and let me know if you'd like a PPP. If you prefer your version, play on, and good luck!
The fail gold idea is good, especially if we have to raise the slider a bit for the CoL-Alpha trade. I'd be interested in your management of PDB, to see if I can apply it. However, I have the feeling that you took the worker from the capital and moved him to C6, which I would rather not do, because 2 workers are needed near BB.

Click to expand...

Doshin said:

Why don't we move the Galley now and hold off from producing a Spy, at least for the time being? If the Galley can pass the mountain chain and circle our continent, we can build a Spy. If it's a dead-end, we lose very little.

Click to expand...

I don't get your point here. We know we do need a spy to pass the barb cities, however it is doubtful that the galley can scout very far. So the order of priority is actually Spy>galley to me

T51

PDB. Work Lake, Pig, Banana. Build Axe.
Ouvrier 3. Chop (3/3)
Ouvrier 1. Move 1E

T52

PDB. Work Lake, Pig, Banana, Grass Forest
Ouvrier 3. Move 3N2E
Ouvrier & Worker 2. move to BH.
Ouvrier 1. Road (1/2)

T53

PDB. Switch to Settler. Whip Settler. Work Pig, GH.
Mid City. Work BH, GH
Ouvrier 1. Build Road (2/2)
Ouvrier. Move 1N of Mid City
Worker 2. move 1NE of Mid City
Ouvrier 2. Move 1NE. Chop (1/3) and cancel.
Ouvrier 3. Chop (1/3).
Ouvrier 4. Move 2W.

(Ouvrier; Worker 2; and Ouvrier 4 now just chop. They finish on T56).

T54

PDB. Switch to Axe. Work Pig, GH.
MC. Switch to Granary. Work Rice, BH.
BB. Switch to Mids.
SI. Switch to Granary. Work Stone.

Worker. Move 1S & Pasture.
WB. Go to Crab.
Settler. Go to Rice.
Ouvrier 2. Move 3N1E. Chop and cancel (1/3).
Ouvrier 1. Chop (2/3).

T55

PDB. Switch to... Archer? Work??
Mid City. Switch to Pyramids. Work Rice, BH, GH.
BB. Switch to Research (I guess). Work Copper and Fur.
SI. Work Crab.

Ouvrier 2. Move 3S1W. Chop and cancel (2/3).
Ouvrier 1. Chop (3/3).

Ouvrier 3. Chop (3/3). That's the Granary in City #5.

T56

Ouvrier 1. Move 3S1W. Chop (3/3).
Ouvrier, Worker 2, and Ouvrier 4 chop (3/3).
----> That's the Mids.

Ouvrier 2. Move 1SW. Chop (1/3) and cancel.

Settler. Build City #6.

Ouvrier 3. Well... if you move him to the tile 2N of PDB this turn, he'll be 2S of PDB on T57. Or you can move him to the Gems.



This can be tweaked and improved, and certain things can be switched around (e.g. Axe/Settler build order can be flipped). Perhaps your version is better after all. I think I'm all tested out at this point...

We can stop building the Mids in Mid City for one turn, provided that no chops come in that turn (well, I guess it could build Research and store the hammers). I think it's a good deal, provided that we don't slow any major builds elsewhere.

---

Regarding the Galley:

I don't think we can get to the barb city via land. I think it is highly likely that the mountain range completely seals off the West this way.

Working from this assumption, we will need a Galley to transport the Spy across the water. We will either need to:

(a) circumnavigate our landmass (assuming we can with a Galley);

(b) settle or capture a city on the western coast, and build a Galley there.

If we can (a) circumnavigate, then we can start to build/whip a Spy as soon as this becomes clear. If we can't circumnavigate, then we don't need the Spy. If we can circumnavigate, a whipped Spy can reach the western coast fairly quickly, while the Galley continues around our landmass.

I don't see any barb culture amidst the southern mountain range, which is why I'm reluctant to build a Spy now. There might be a way through on land... but if it only costs us 1-3 to confirm or refute naval access, I'd like to do so now. I also don't have a strong opinion on the matter, so either way would be fine.

Sorry if any of the above is unclear. Let me know if I misreported anything in the PPP. I can correct it if you can't fill in the gaps.

We can steal some polytheism while the galley circles the "continent", also we can use it for spawn bust. If none of these is applied then we don't need spy so soon. We can reach he galley relatively fast.

Played to the beginning of T56.
I don't have time to write a report right now, but I uploaded the save, so you can take a look and evaluate the situation.

A quick note on the trading scene though : I delayed the IW trade until I put one turn of 100% slider into CoL, cause I hoped to manage the Maths+Alpha<->CoL+IW trade.
Unfortunately, one turn was not enough, so I was only able to do the Maths<->IW trade.

Another thing to note : our SE Archer has a 82.5% chance to win this fight.

I'll leave with an overview of our empire :


And the turnlog :

Nice play, Bebe.

We need to fogbust a few spots now. The east is totally open. The north-west by Ivory Coast is high risk. City#6 really needs two defenders, due to the Railroad. The Galley can at least help fogbust as it travels westward.

I don't think we should move the Settler to the Archer just yet. I lose far too many ~17.5% battles against barbs, and a one turn delay on the city won't be the end of us (only one Worker is in place anyway). After the city is founded, any Archers will receive a +70% defensive boost, so let's hope that our Shock guy survives.

The big things to consider now for me are our future tech path (push CoLs further?) and future city sites (how many? where next?). This is my first xGOTM, so I'd be interested to hear other opinions first (this stops me saying anything stupid or naive ).

Edit: I also find it strange that Judaism hasn't spread anywhere... just 2% of the world's pop.

Good play and good land. Doh, the noob Mansa has asked for a tech and he seems to have iron as well (or at least copper as he was grabbing about an axeman).
Kakumeika possibly got iron in the capital and the isle has iron too as predicted. I guess the imminent task is fending the babas off the juicy lands of ours.

Will assess the case later.

Bebekija said:

The point of the galley move was to load the spy near BB then take him across the river of Cow city, right onto the rails. It should save 1-2 turns comparing to moving him by foot to the same position. Later on, it can help moving the peninsula workers West in just one turn.

Click to expand...

I don't know why you and others have been so sure about that galley can circle through south. It looks to me that the western land is blocked by mountains. Water tiles around mountain are ocean tiles, where galley can't pass. The location of the Iron on the island also needs the galley to pick a worker to improve.

Good that we finally got IW. Note that your delay of trade was a dangerous action if Mansa went for Math right after IW, which disables the the Math trade immediately. That's why I specially reminded you the trade in previous post since that's the only way.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12328998&postcount=709

We need more than 100 beakers to CoL to enable the Math+Alpha<->IW+CoL trade since Math is only ~10 beakers more than IW.

Regarding the 6th city, I would not take the risk, retreat the archer and move the axe to secure the area.

Edit:

The move of 6th city group

Axe to 1N of the Cow, he can move either 1W of 1E of the Cow depending on how the sword goes next.
Archer 1SE
worker road the cow&cancel so that he can go to Pig tile next to scout 1st. It would be better that the settler moves to the Cow tile instead, worker could do a turn of chop then.

Duckweed said:

I don't know why you and others have been so sure about that galley can circle through south. It looks to me that the western land is blocked by mountains. Water tiles around mountain are ocean tiles, where galley can't pass. The location of the Iron on the island also needs the galley to pick a worker to improve.

Click to expand...

Really agree with Duckweed on this one. The railroads alone seem to support this concept.

Realistically, we've got all of the cities we can handle at the moment. Only a -grabbing city or heavy commerce city is worth it until we can resolve the upkeep situation.