Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The one from WoC works fine. It has four files while the other only had three.
C2C - Religions discussions and ideas
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
The one from WoC works fine. It has four files while the other only had three.
johny smith
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 2,273
Sorry I must of had something in the rapture fpk for it then.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@DH, and modding team
Religions seem to be broken again. The AI is not attempting to even research Druidism or Shamanism as it used to do. In fact those 2 were generally AI targets and acquisitions 1st before many players could get to them. Now they sit unresearched and by passed by ALL the AI.
This is a v29 problem as I did not see this happening in v28.
And yes, I've posted in the Bug thread as well as the Tech Tree thread about this. Waving the Red Flag.
JosEPh
Religions seem to be broken again. The AI is not attempting to even research Druidism or Shamanism as it used to do. In fact those 2 were generally AI targets and acquisitions 1st before many players could get to them. Now they sit unresearched and by passed by ALL the AI.
This is a v29 problem as I did not see this happening in v28.
And yes, I've posted in the Bug thread as well as the Tech Tree thread about this. Waving the Red Flag.
JosEPh
Arkenor
Warlord
Druidism and Shamanism got researched and founded in my last game. Koshling has tweaked the prehistoric era AI tech researching since then though which may have changed things.
Does it still depend on the civ? Perhaps you were on a map where nobody was interested in those religions?
Does it still depend on the civ? Perhaps you were on a map where nobody was interested in those religions?
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
No, 1 AI (out of 10 to be exact) has researched exactly 1 religion, Mesopotamism, and the game is at 4565BC. I have researched 3, Tengrii, Shinto, and Judaism. It's broken.
I'm just updating to SVN 5234 to see if it starts correcting itself.
JosEPh
I'm just updating to SVN 5234 to see if it starts correcting itself.
JosEPh
See my response in the bug thread. Need ai logs for the period in which you'd expect the religions to have been founded.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Well, it turns out in the New SVN 5234 game I started yesterday and updated to 5247, is only slightly better than the previous game.
Something is slowing down the AI from Founding Religions to a snails pace. And I still say it was the adjustment to the complaint about the AI teching Religion techs that had already been teched. Someone complain that an AI in their game was researching all the Religion techs. An adjustment was made. Now the AI is extremely slow at even looking at a Religion giving tech.
It's 5440BC in this new game and 4 Religions have been founded out of 11 AI and me. I've founded 2 of the 4 and am heading for the 5th (my 3rd). I have met 7 of the 11AI. (see screen shot) And not a single one I've met has a Religion. Not even one of mine.
Whatever the Research adjustment to the AI, concerning Religion founding techs, done recently, needs to be put back to the former levels. It's not right.
JosEPh
Something is slowing down the AI from Founding Religions to a snails pace. And I still say it was the adjustment to the complaint about the AI teching Religion techs that had already been teched. Someone complain that an AI in their game was researching all the Religion techs. An adjustment was made. Now the AI is extremely slow at even looking at a Religion giving tech.
It's 5440BC in this new game and 4 Religions have been founded out of 11 AI and me. I've founded 2 of the 4 and am heading for the 5th (my 3rd). I have met 7 of the 11AI. (see screen shot) And not a single one I've met has a Religion. Not even one of mine.
Whatever the Research adjustment to the AI, concerning Religion founding techs, done recently, needs to be put back to the former levels. It's not right.
JosEPh
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
The current religion situation is now compounded by a severly slowed down research pace by the AI.
The AI is noticeably slower in researching tech, horribly slow at founding a religion, and the majority do not expand beyond 2 or 3 cities until well past writing, mathematics, alphabet, or even the earlier tech Bronze working.
I've been testing on Prince for the last 3 versions and shortly after v29 was released the AI was keeping a close pace with me. I always had 2-4 AI that were neck and neck with me with several being ahead of me in the tech race. This all changed after svn version 5190 ish.
Now ALL AI are lagging 10-15 techs behind. Out of 11 AI only 2 have founded and Converted to a religion. 6 religions have been founded so far and I have 3 of them at 3480 BC in an Epic game, Huge PM map, with No REV, No Traits Options selected, NO vassals, No City Limits, No Fixed Borders. I could've had more but held back there too.
Maybe no one else plays with religions like I do, but the AI is now ********. V28 and V29 Official release are better versions than the current SVN version. I updated to 5257 this morning and things have not improved for the AI. It's weaker and slower and not much of a challenge. Whatever was done to the AI in regards to seeking out and bee-lining to founding a religion is imho the main culprit.
I have held back on expansion but still lead by 5 cities to the 2 nearest in size AI. And I have a crappy swampy starting area. (When can you settle a swamp by a river?) The weakest AI met so far has 2 cities to my 15. But part of that could be that Barb World Option is active in this game. The early Barbs were doing fine and posed a decent threat until Atls and Horse or elephant riders. But none of the AI were overwhelmed. And the AI should've benefited from capturing a barb city. Yet hardly any did.
Religion founding and converting is broken and so is the AI's ability to research and expand.
Maybe in a week or so someone else will notice and say Hey there's a problem. Maybe?
JosEPh
The AI is noticeably slower in researching tech, horribly slow at founding a religion, and the majority do not expand beyond 2 or 3 cities until well past writing, mathematics, alphabet, or even the earlier tech Bronze working.
I've been testing on Prince for the last 3 versions and shortly after v29 was released the AI was keeping a close pace with me. I always had 2-4 AI that were neck and neck with me with several being ahead of me in the tech race. This all changed after svn version 5190 ish.
Now ALL AI are lagging 10-15 techs behind. Out of 11 AI only 2 have founded and Converted to a religion. 6 religions have been founded so far and I have 3 of them at 3480 BC in an Epic game, Huge PM map, with No REV, No Traits Options selected, NO vassals, No City Limits, No Fixed Borders. I could've had more but held back there too.
Maybe no one else plays with religions like I do, but the AI is now ********. V28 and V29 Official release are better versions than the current SVN version. I updated to 5257 this morning and things have not improved for the AI. It's weaker and slower and not much of a challenge. Whatever was done to the AI in regards to seeking out and bee-lining to founding a religion is imho the main culprit.
I have held back on expansion but still lead by 5 cities to the 2 nearest in size AI. And I have a crappy swampy starting area. (When can you settle a swamp by a river?) The weakest AI met so far has 2 cities to my 15. But part of that could be that Barb World Option is active in this game. The early Barbs were doing fine and posed a decent threat until Atls and Horse or elephant riders. But none of the AI were overwhelmed. And the AI should've benefited from capturing a barb city. Yet hardly any did.
Religion founding and converting is broken and so is the AI's ability to research and expand.
Maybe in a week or so someone else will notice and say Hey there's a problem. Maybe?
JosEPh
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
So no one else is seeing this problem? Everything is hunky dory with the AI?
JosEPh
JosEPh
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I have been playing test games this last few days so I am getting all the religions - so no comment from me one way or the other.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
It's the AI that is Not getting the Religions DH.
I could have ALL the religions if I wanted and that Is the problem.
The AI is slower and weaker at getting a Religion. And because of it's lack of trying for a religion and converting to it, it's Research level has dropped too.
JosEPh
I could have ALL the religions if I wanted and that Is the problem.
The AI is slower and weaker at getting a Religion. And because of it's lack of trying for a religion and converting to it, it's Research level has dropped too.
JosEPh
The AI has been having a general inability to expand and research in the prehistoric era recently. I would not be surprised if this is linked to that, and Koshling has spend a lot of time working on that.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
@DH
Where do you mysteriously have these buildings, i cant find them anyplace??
Where do you mysteriously have these buildings, i cant find them anyplace??
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
They are in my FPK file.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Dang i forgot all about your FPK, DUH!!
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Here is an outline of my thinking on what we could do with religions to get them to fit better with the C2C time frame ie all the way from wandering bands of humans through nomadic and pastoral eras then city starts to the modern world.
An aside:-
I am still trying to get the correct words to explain what I want to do. many ideas come from looking at the Rapture mod and other discussions on religion.
Age = Bands
Age = Tribes
Age = early City
Age = City States
Age = national
Age = International[/INDENT]Multiple religions can now exist in a city.[/INDENT]
As I said this is just the broad ideas I have been having on this but I thought I should get then down so you know where I am coming from. As you can see this removes the need for both the "Choose religion" and the "Limited Religion" options
An aside:-
Spoiler :
I am still trying to get the correct words to explain what I want to do. many ideas come from looking at the Rapture mod and other discussions on religion.
Age = Bands
band = 10-20 people,
no religion yet,
shamans/wise women are the store of tribal knowledge and link to what happens after death and before birth.
no religion yet,
shamans/wise women are the store of tribal knowledge and link to what happens after death and before birth.
Age = Tribes
Tribe = 5+ bands
spiritual ideas keep the bands unified
spiritual sights on the map,
may build mega structures in the landscape
idea of "gods" beginning to form, links to the gods through shamans and ancestors
a tribe may have a guardian spirit or "god"
spiritual ideas keep the bands unified
spiritual sights on the map,
may build mega structures in the landscape
idea of "gods" beginning to form, links to the gods through shamans and ancestors
a tribe may have a guardian spirit or "god"
Age = early City
city = 2+ tribes
each tribe has it own guardian gods (assigned to te city from a cultural based list)
city has its own patron god
allows temples to tribal and city gods
each tribe has it own guardian gods (assigned to te city from a cultural based list)
city has its own patron god
allows temples to tribal and city gods
Age = City States
City State = 5+ cities
Great Prophet needed to unify the gods of the city states into pantheon. Player chooses a religion from a list. The holy city is where the prophet was born.
allows Holy Shrine to be built plus "Cult Temples" to each of the gods. Since each city has its own patron god they can only build the "Cult Temple" to that god in their city but the Holy city can build Cult Temples to all gods in the pantheon.
It is probably at this point that the player can choose to go with non-theistic, polytheism or monotheism. If they go with polytheism they can now build temples to all the different city gods in the pantheon. Costs more in maintenance etc but gives more to. If they go with monotheism then they don't get all the cult temples and small temples but the Holy Shrine is much better. Non-theistic religions cover ancestral worship and includes there being gods but ones who are are not directly interested in humans. The results are similar to monotheism with buildings but they spread easier to any neighbour.
New cities get this religion and if running polytheism the new city gets an unused patron god of that religion.
Great Prophet needed to unify the gods of the city states into pantheon. Player chooses a religion from a list. The holy city is where the prophet was born.
allows Holy Shrine to be built plus "Cult Temples" to each of the gods. Since each city has its own patron god they can only build the "Cult Temple" to that god in their city but the Holy city can build Cult Temples to all gods in the pantheon.
It is probably at this point that the player can choose to go with non-theistic, polytheism or monotheism. If they go with polytheism they can now build temples to all the different city gods in the pantheon. Costs more in maintenance etc but gives more to. If they go with monotheism then they don't get all the cult temples and small temples but the Holy Shrine is much better. Non-theistic religions cover ancestral worship and includes there being gods but ones who are are not directly interested in humans. The results are similar to monotheism with buildings but they spread easier to any neighbour.
New cities get this religion and if running polytheism the new city gets an unused patron god of that religion.
Age = national
Monasteries become available and you can now start trying to spread your version of the religion to others including barbarians and Indigenous Peoples. It is easier to spread your version of a religion to polytheistic neighbours with the same cultural background.
At this point a Great Prophet may be used to merge two similar polytheistic religions into one. The place they are born becomes the new Holy City while the old ones become secondary Holy Cities.
Converting a neigbour to your monotheistic religion is not as easy, it may require conquest, one or two Great Prophets and aggressive missionaries
Or for the neighbour to adopt your religion themselves using a Great prophet. Where prophet was born is a secondary Holy City. It is at this point that Sevo's faces of God mod can be used to simulate the different versions of a religion.
At this point a Great Prophet may be used to merge two similar polytheistic religions into one. The place they are born becomes the new Holy City while the old ones become secondary Holy Cities.
Converting a neigbour to your monotheistic religion is not as easy, it may require conquest, one or two Great Prophets and aggressive missionaries
Or for the neighbour to adopt your religion themselves using a Great prophet. Where prophet was born is a secondary Holy City. It is at this point that Sevo's faces of God mod can be used to simulate the different versions of a religion.Age = International[/INDENT]Multiple religions can now exist in a city.[/INDENT]
As I said this is just the broad ideas I have been having on this but I thought I should get then down so you know where I am coming from. As you can see this removes the need for both the "Choose religion" and the "Limited Religion" options
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Choose religion could still be useful in enabling more choice within a particular frame - for example, you might normally have only founded the worship of Zeus in your early city state but with Choose religion you can pick from all possible faiths within the frame you're in that have not been founded.
I can totally deal with Limited Religions being removed.
If we take this whole picture and make it an option of its own, however, we can keep the vanilla - ish religion methods available for those who would prefer that simpler structure. Obviously this would also necessitate the need to dramatically adjust Divine Prophets if working under this structure as well.
But I think if and when we get this completed, that it would become the most highly suggested method of religious interplay as it really is a very cool concept.
As a footnote: in the earliest phases of religions, natural forces were considered to have evolved into being personified into deities which gave rise to the concept of 'gods'. Thus the earliest 'gods' were more reflections of forces with very little if any personification, such as the Sun, Earth, Moon, Stars, Man, Woman, Animals, Weather Patterns etc... If we can hit on this it'd help.
Additionally, the earliest pantheonistic beliefs were often evolutions of earlier pantheons. You can tie core Hindu, Asatru, Kemetist, Greek and probably more to Sumerian roots and show the evolution of thoughts there - interestingly enough it can help historians to trace the migrations of man from the destroyed Sumeria as well. So if we can grasp this evolutionary concept and tie it in to the culture mechanisms we'd have an even more powerful system overall.
I can totally deal with Limited Religions being removed.
If we take this whole picture and make it an option of its own, however, we can keep the vanilla - ish religion methods available for those who would prefer that simpler structure. Obviously this would also necessitate the need to dramatically adjust Divine Prophets if working under this structure as well.
But I think if and when we get this completed, that it would become the most highly suggested method of religious interplay as it really is a very cool concept.
As a footnote: in the earliest phases of religions, natural forces were considered to have evolved into being personified into deities which gave rise to the concept of 'gods'. Thus the earliest 'gods' were more reflections of forces with very little if any personification, such as the Sun, Earth, Moon, Stars, Man, Woman, Animals, Weather Patterns etc... If we can hit on this it'd help.
Additionally, the earliest pantheonistic beliefs were often evolutions of earlier pantheons. You can tie core Hindu, Asatru, Kemetist, Greek and probably more to Sumerian roots and show the evolution of thoughts there - interestingly enough it can help historians to trace the migrations of man from the destroyed Sumeria as well. So if we can grasp this evolutionary concept and tie it in to the culture mechanisms we'd have an even more powerful system overall.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The three women as one concept is very very old. It is most often seen by us in their Graco-Roman form of the Fates or the Scandinavian Norns. IE Youth, Motherhood and Death.
rightfuture
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 1,649
Neat little Earth Religions Time Lapse Map.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktt0Nvx5IhE
Shows the progression and spread of religions throughout history, could be useful for tweaking.
Uploaded on Jun 25, 2011
There are 19 major religions around the world today. These religions are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups. These groups divide further into thousands of off shoots. This clip is an animated time lapse of only 5 of the 19 Religions and their origins. It shows the birth and expansionary growth over a 50 century period throughout planet Earth.
From: http://www.mapsofwar.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktt0Nvx5IhE
Shows the progression and spread of religions throughout history, could be useful for tweaking.
Uploaded on Jun 25, 2011
There are 19 major religions around the world today. These religions are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups. These groups divide further into thousands of off shoots. This clip is an animated time lapse of only 5 of the 19 Religions and their origins. It shows the birth and expansionary growth over a 50 century period throughout planet Earth.
From: http://www.mapsofwar.com
I was thinking that with these automatic buildings your citizens build for you this gives possibility for religious complexities. For example under certain conditions some religions in the city might get persecuted, or a city might become a secondary holy site for a certain religion, or it might get extra faithful and make it cheaper to build missionaries e.t.c. I don't have any clear suggestions it's just an idea.
