Alaska and Vladivostok idea

As a big fan of this magnificient mod, I have noticed that two greater regions on the map are never settled by the nation that have possessed them in the real history. The nation is Russia and the regions are Vladivostok area and southern Alaska.

In all my games in DOC (at least 70-80) Alaska does always have one or two American cities near the oil, and the south is always empty. Vladivostok (or equivalent) is always owned by Korea or other asian nation, which feels right from the geographical point of view, but not from the historical one. IMO there should be at least some possibility for Russia to own this territory. Therefore, I have a suggestion, which may solve both these issues at once – at the moment when Russia constructs its Trading Company, following event is triggered:

1. If the Vladivostok area (9 squares) is empty - Pay XX gold, foreign culture is removed, and a settler and a defender spawns there.
2. If the Vladivostok area is settled - -X population in Y cities, foreign culture is removed, and an army spawns near the city and a war is declared to the nation that currently controls the area.
3. Pay additionally YY gold – a settler and a defender spawns in southern Alaska.
4. Pay XX+YY gold, lose X population in Y cities – all of the above.

Alternative 2 is very ahistorical, but without it there will be no chance for Russia to take control of the area before an asian nation does. The city in Alaska could receive it’s historical name – New Archangel. In the middle of 19’th century, or later, the area should become unstable for Russia and a possibility to give the Alaskan city to USA should appear. Then the probability of flip should gradually increase. I don’t think it is possible to implement Alaska Purchase in this mod, so it could work this way instead. The american name for the south-Alaskan city should be Sitka.

So what do you guys think? Some of you will certainly say that this idea is just crazy, but the main goal of this post is not to request immediate implementation of my idea but to raise a discussion about this issue.

AI Russia already gets a pseudo-TC spawn at Vladivostok when it researches Railroad.

I like the idea...

I like this idea

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Trading Company Event is designed because naval travel in this game is so unrealistically slow and cumbersome that it's virtually impossible for the European colonials to actually move their units to Southern/Eastern/Southeastern Asia to conquer them.

Russia does not have this problem. Especially since your UU is a cavalry unit.

I suggest instead moving the Cossack's tech requirement earlier to (Military Tradition + Horseback Riding + Printing Press), while reducing it's +% bonus vs. Cavalry units from 50% to 30%. This way, once you have Cossacks you can rapidly expand across Siberia with little opposition, just like Russia did IRL.

iOnlySignIn said:

Trading Company Event is designed because naval travel in this game is so unrealistically slow and cumbersome that it's virtually impossible for the European colonials to actually move their units to Southern/Eastern/Southeastern Asia to conquer them.

Russia does not have this problem. Especially since your UU is a cavalry unit.

I suggest instead moving the Cossack's tech requirement earlier to (Military Tradition + Horseback Riding + Printing Press), while reducing it's +% bonus vs. Cavalry units from 50% to 30%. This way, once you have Cossacks you can rapidly expand across Siberia with little opposition, just like Russia did IRL.

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The player has no problem with this, but it is the AI that the idea is primarily for, I believe. The issue at hand is that these areas, which are historically settled, rarely are by the computer, and as such "forcing their hand" might ensure that they do so. The human would receive an advantage to be sure, but it would be negligible and would likely only be used for UHV.

SheaferDaDawg said:

The player has no problem with this, but it is the AI that the idea is primarily for, I believe. The issue at hand is that these areas, which are historically settled, rarely are by the computer, and as such "forcing their hand" might ensure that they do so. The human would receive an advantage to be sure, but it would be negligible and would likely only be used for UHV.

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Again, AI Russia already gets a pseudo-TC spawn at Vladivostok when it researches Railroad.

SheaferDaDawg said:

The player has no problem with this, but it is the AI that the idea is primarily for, I believe.

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AI Russia already gets free colonists. They typically expand all the way to the Pacific coast with no problem.

As for Vladivostok (a city I've visited personally, btw) in particular, I'm of the opinion that it should not even be Historical for Russia. Instead, Russia should get more Historical/Contested regions in Eastern Europe, especially towards Helsinki and Constantinople.

I'm sorry, but I have never seen the Russians expand there, as Korea/Japan/Mongols always seem to get there first, and thus the settlers don't spawn (or at least don't do anything). The contested/historical might be interesting in Europe, but could cause some problems imo.

I don't think that we should script every little thing (and on RFC scale, Russian Far East south of Amur is quite "little"). European TC's were needed, since without them, such a major part of history as European colonialism in Asia was absent, but that doesn't mean that we should auto-spawn stacks all over the place. The mod is already going a bit too far with scripting (Seljuks, anyone)?

OK I didn't know that free settler was given to Russia on the discovery of Railroad. Wouldn't it be better to accomplish this in a "standard way", which means via Trading Company? The first reason for this is that completion of TC usually occurs earlier than discovery of railroad. In the railroad age, Vladivostok spot is occupied 100 times out of 100, either by a city or just by culture.

The other reason is that a city which is founded earlier has much more time to develop than a "young" city. You also can decide when to research economics and build your TC. Railroad for Russia is another thing, you get it very, very late.

And the third reason is that you don't want a "special solution" for every minor detail in the game. IMO it would be better to use the standard tool the mod already has, the TC, for accomplishing the goal we are disscussing - settling remote areas by colonial powers, in this case Russia.

Regarding Alaska, i think I have never ever seen a Russian city there. And we all understand why - who wants to build a galley/galleon, or possibly two, and send them around Eurasia to a barren area which only has a crab and a deer? I'm not arguing that this area should be improved in terms of landscape/resources etc., but what I'm saying is that we should increase probability of a Russian city there, since now it seems converge to zero.

From the programming perspective, there is no "standard way". Scripting is scripting, and I need to do it explicitly anyway. Furthermore, the AI doesn't trigger the event when it builds the Trading Company, but when it discovers certain techs.

And both Astronomy and Economics would be ahistorically early for the Siberian coast, while Railroad fits thematically. And historical "accuracy" is the only reason for this effect.

I think asiatics civillizations such as Korea should be nerfed in order to avoid them from taking Vladivostok spot, and I'm not against scripted events at all as they ensure we have a historical plausible world (some time ago I played a game where Thailand and Korea dominated everything in China and what should be east Russia...what I think is ahistorical.).

Not every historical conquest that never happens should be simulated.

I played a game where Thailand and Korea dominated everything in China and what should be east Russia

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That's a fairly natural response to China collapsing. You can't prevent such things without severely harming the AI's ability to do anything at all.

IRL Russia fought a war with Japan (and lost, btw) for the control of Manchuria. So if you need to fight against Asian civs for Manchuria, it's completely realistic.

A more pressing thing is how to make AI Japan actually accomplish anything against Korea. I don't think free conquerors is the best thing - but some form of cheat that allows them to land units in Korea (and perhaps China's coast) without naval transports would be good IMO.

I think Russia should get Alaska when it builds the Trading Company. However, the problem there would be how does the US get it back?

Royal Tenenbaum said:

I think Russia should get Alaska when it builds the Trading Company. However, the problem there would be how does the US get it back?

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When America gets Combustion, Alaska and Hawaii flip to America, only for AI.

Maybe the Vladivitosk event is triggered with Rifling or Corporation?

Lone Wolf said:

Not every historical conquest that never happens should be simulated.


That's a fairly natural response to China collapsing. You can't prevent such things without severely harming the AI's ability to do anything at all.

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I don't see at all what's so wrong with this, seems perfectly natural.

Alaska is pointless to incorporate imo, more interesting to rework existing areas like East-America, Israel or the Balkans than try and have cities/gameplay/civs on every worthless little area of the map. If any area of Russia needs to be improved, it's the Kievan and Mongol/Tartar eras.