SGOTM 18 - Kakumeika

If it is the forest... settling the city 3 turns earlier means at least 6 food and 6 hammers from the new city's production (which makes up for the lost 10 hammers from chopping the forest early).
Not to mention the fact that we might lose the city site to GK...

Plus Pigs gets the chariot out faster which might mean an extra worker... and it grows earlier...

I have to say a single chop that has a chance to regrow has to be worth it.

Turn Set Goals - Final Version:

Capitalist: Chariot, start Worker, whip Worker, start Library and whip Library

Pigs City: Settler aided by Forest Chop 1-NW, and continue Granary

Shark: Start building Granary, whip Granary, build Research if needed to complete Currency by turn 52 and start Galley

Workers:
#1: Chop Forest 1-NW of Pigs, move to FurCorn site and farm Corn
#2: Move to Capitalist, cottage Floodplains 1-SE, and farm Floodplain 2-SE
#3: From Capitalist, help cottage Floodplains 1-SE, and farm Floodplain 2-SE

Fembot: Move towards Joao II and start exploring

Warrior: Move to 1-S of Genghis Khan's Copper Stay put and poach 2nd Worker 1-N

new Chariot: heads toward Genghis Khan's Copper (help with Worker poaching and Copper Mine pillaging)

Thanks for offering viable alternative goals.

Sun Tzu Wu

i'll give u the chop, but no worker, and improve copper with a higher priority. don't head to corn. plan on a worker steal eventually.

i'd also prefer chariot from pigs. maybe grow it to size3? for a whip? don't stress Capitalist unnecessarily.

Draft Detailed PPP T42-52

Draft Grand Strategy

updated: Goal-Oriented PPP for T42-52

Research
T42-52 100% Currency

Tech Trades
As the opportunity arises; upload game, unless obviously a good trade.

Monotheism from Gandhi for whatever we can muster or in the worst case Alphabet.

Cities
(bold builds indicate they will be produced; Changes to worked tiles are bold)

Capitalist (includes bcool's plan to whip Library in t47)
T42-T43 Library; Wheat,x2FloodPlain (Go steal a Genghis worker, or protect Corn+Fur city if already at war)
T44-T46 Library; Wheat,Gold,x2FloodPlains
T47 - Whip Library; Wheat,x2FloodPlains
T48 - Chariot Warrior; Wheat,Gold,Floodplains
T49-T50 - Chariot Warrior/Worker; Wheat,Gold,Floodplains,Marble
T51-T52 - Warrior Worker; Wheat,FPCottage,Gold,Marble

Pigs City (Includes bcool's plan to add a chop and build a Chariot before Settler)
T42-T49 Settler; Pigs,Horse
T50-T52 Granary; Pigs,Horse
T42-T45 Chariot (2 chops go into chariot) working pigs and horses
T46-T50 Settler with 30 OF work pigs and horses grass forest
T51 whip settler work pigs and horses
T52 granary working pigs and horses


Shark
T42-T43 - Granary; Fish
T44-T47 - Granary; Fish,BronzeTile
T48 - Granary; BronzeTile,Citizen (need that extra hammer!)
T49 - Whip Granary; Fish
T50-T51 - Research; Fish (Or Galley Library if beakers not needed for Currency)
T52 - Galley Library; Fish,FloodPlains
T53 - Galley Library; Fish,FPFarm FloodPlains

Workers

Dixie
T43-T46 Chop NW of Pigs City
T47-T52 Move to the Corn near the fur

Alotta (a.k.a. Alotta Fagina)
T43-T46 Chop NE of Pigs City
T43-T45 T47-T49 Move east towards the capital, putting 1t of Cottage on RS grassland
T46-T50 T50-T54 Cottage 1SE of capital
T50-T53+ T55-T58+ Farm flood plain 2S2E of capital Move to and Mine Copper

New Worker
T49 Cottage 1SE of capital
T50-T53 Farm flood plain 2S2E of capital Move to and Mine Copper

Units

fembot
Move towards Joao II and start exploring

Shaguar
Stay put and poach 2nd Worker 1-N Move to Hill 1-S of Copper and wait for safe attack on Worker or attack it on Copper and take our chances versus any counter attacking Archer.

new Chariot
Heads toward Genghis Khan's Copper (help with Worker poaching and Copper Mine pillaging)

Diplomacy
(see grand strategy)
DoW Genghis Khan when poaching Worker is safe to do.
Get a Cease Fire ASAP

Stopping Conditions
Find something amazing
2nd Worker found

Espionage
Always on Mansa

Civics

TBD?

Check Every turn
Fancy trick: Turn on "Show Friendly moves". When pressing end of turn, watch carefully for Mansa's research. It may only flash for a second before his EPs increase again.
Trade resources if route become available (sailing)
Save at start and end of turn
Use global culture view to see if AI culture is near
Place signs on all known AI positions & cities, including turn # and unit/stack composition

Sun Tzu Wu

WastinTime said:

i'll give u the chop, but no worker, and improve copper with a higher priority. don't head to corn. plan on a worker steal eventually.

i'd also prefer chariot from pigs. maybe grow it to size3? for a whip? don't stress Capitalist unnecessarily.

Click to expand...

We will soon have four cities, so we should have four workers; we have too many plots to improve for 2-3 Workers to handle.

We can improve the Copper rather than Farm Shark's Floodplains. That's the best we can do without compromising optimality.

Pigs at Pop 2 will finish the Settler rather quickly; Setting it the task of building the Chariot before the Settler is too much for it to handle. Growing Pigs to Pop 3 will delay the Settler too much.

Sun Tzu Wu

settler late is fine. how much maint. will that city be anyway? gk wont settle there..probably he'll settle the copper.

we can't count on Shaguar stopping gk's copper hookup. how much are we delaying or accelerating the chariot in Pigs vs capital? sorry i'm out of town and can't work it out myself rt now

i'm always against fp-farm this early. +1 food? for all those worker turns? no

there are a lot of scouts nearby. If we go back to war, they can mess with worked tiles. Add to check every turn to check worked tiles/enemy scouts

and note: we don't want to kill gk's scouts (for require complete kills)

I virtually never farm Floodplains in my own games, though I don't cottage over a Floodplains farm built by a defeated AI.

So, I'd be fine with improving the Copper instead of building a Floodplains farm.

Sun Tzu Wu

I'm really a fan of farming one floodplain because then we aren't sunk if/when our fish gets pillaged.
+4 at Size 1 is far superior to +3
A FPFarm is almost as good as our fish and can't be pillaged by galleys or troops stepping 1 tile off a boat


Also, after completing a granary, I'd much rather have a Fish+FPFarm than Fish+Bronze.
Sure, bronze is shiny with that fat 6, but the growth is pathetic at Size 2.
As currently envisioned, we'll get it T57 or T56 instead of a beelined T51.


Tech trades. Obviously Monotheism from Gandhi is desirable still. Not sure we will be able to get anything else.
Mansa and Genghis will both probably try to demand something from us since they are at war.


If our worker does not head to corn, and we don't steal a worker, we will be kicking ourselves later when our capital has 2 extra cottages and our new city doesn't have wet corn or improved fur.
Obviously, we can make the decision on T47 depending on what happens. Maybe Sun Tzu Wu should play the turnset in 2 halves of 5 turns each?
If we do capture a worker within the next 5 turns, I can see how the capital could be skipping a worker build. There are arguments to build it anyway since there are so many roads to make, tiles to improves, and forests to prechop
There are not a whole lot of good city sites left once we reach 5 cities.

Not chopping before math is really something holding you back Wastin .

You might say about me, as I'm willing to chop all Forrests before Math, but I guess Kaitzilla is already very careful with only wanting to chop that 1 Forrest, that even hinders our units to move out fast. If you ask me, I'd let Pigs-City maybe get 2 Cottages so that it can work 4 tiles, and then I'd whip the city 4->2 for Settlers and chop everything around it to pump us to 10 cities at 1 AD (not counting conquest ones) .

Seraiel

I'm 100% sure that growing Capitalist to size 4 and 2pop-whip the worker with OF in the Granary is the better choice, and I'm not sure if whipping the Library is really worth it, woud more like to grow on it an even whip another Worker / Settler.

Farming a Floodplain is a good choice, working the Copper though too. We have to get a Library in that city asap if it shall continue with building the GL, though I'm still not convinced, that using Capitalist as the GP-Farm and moving the Palace to Pigs City isn't the better choice, but I'll guess we never will find out.

I agree with WastinTime that we should improve the Copper before considering Floodplains farm. Floodplains farms can be built later after we commit Shark to a a Great Person Farm. I don't believe we should build Floodplains farm before either improving the Copper or commiting Shark to Great Person Farm use.

I'll add Monotheism for whatever we can muster or in the worse case Alphabet from Gandhi.

Sun Tzu Wu

I don't sense a consensus on the PPP or the turn set goals for that matter. So, it seems we need another 24 hours to discuss the goals/PPP.

To make this a little easier, please write your suggestions so they can be copied into the turn set goals or PPP posts.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Draft Detailed PPP T42-52

[/SIZE]Capitalist
T42-T43 Chariot; Wheat, x2FloodPlain (Go steal a Genghis worker, or protect Corn+Fur city if already at war)

Click to expand...

I'm against this Chariot, because Genghis will simply kill it. I'm for growing on a Library, and the choice of worked Tiles is ok for me, though I'm quite sure that working the Gold would be superior.

T44-T46 Chariot; Wheat,Gold,x2FloodPlain
T47 - Worker; Wheat,Gold,Marble,x2FloodPlain

Click to expand...

I'm guessing the city is size 3 here and that the Floodplains aren't worked, I propose growing on the Library until size 4 and then 2pop-whipping the Worker with OF into another Worker or the Library.

T48 - Whip Worker; Wheat,Gold,Marble
T49-T51 Library; Wheat,Gold,FPCottage (The gold instead of FP helps us get Currency on T52)
T52 - Whip Library; Wheat,FPCottage

Click to expand...

I'm against whipping the Library, that's our building we should grow on, and I see no immediate need to finish it before we could even work the Specialists that it unlocks.

Pigs City
T42-T49 Settler; Pigs,Horse
T50-T52 Granary; Pigs,Horse

Click to expand...

We could spare the Granary and produce another Worker here at size 2, if we wanted.

Shark
T42-T43 Granary; Fish
T44-T47 Granary; Fish,BronzeTile
T48 - Granary; BronzeTile,Citizen (need that extra hammer!)
T49 - Whip Granary; Fish
T50-T51 Research; Fish (Or Galley if beakers not needed for Currency)
T52 - Galley; Fish,FloodPlain
T53 - Galley; Fish,FPFarm

Click to expand...

If we really want to build the GL in Shark, we should start on building a Library, and not a Galley. We should whip that Galley, should Goldmember show up, but having 1 Galley doesn't make sense, as it could be a total loss, and we should focus on getting the GL imho and hope that Goldmember doesn't come to pillage that Fish, or if he does, then whip the Galley in which we put as many Hammers so we can finish it before he's on the Fish, because this gives us the chance to go for a Trireme or get 2 Galleys.

I'm not really sure though if building the GL in Shark is the right choice really, because that city's got seriously low production, and I'll play out a test-game now to show you some scenarios, as mabraham somehow doesn't show up.

Workers

Dixie
T43-T46 Chop NW of Pigs City
T47-T52 Move to the Corn near the fur

Alotta (a.k.a. Alotta Fagina)
T43-T45 Move east towards the capital
T46-T49 Cottage 1SE of capital
T50-T52 Farm flood plain 2S2E of capital

New Worker
T49 Cottage 1SE of capital
T50-T52 Farm flood plain 2S2E of capital

Units

fembot
Move towards Joao II and start exploring

Shaguar
Stay put and poach 2nd Worker 1-N

new Chariot
Heads toward Genghis Khan's Copper (help with Worker poaching and Copper Mine pillaging)

Diplomacy
(see grand strategy)
DoW Genghis Khan when poaching Worker is safe to do.
Get a Cease Fire ASAP

Click to expand...

I won't comment on the Worker management, because it looks good, and I think everybody of us is a pro with that.

Getting the cease fire however could get difficult imo, as I've experienced that getting a 2nd ceasefire after dowing a 2nd time usually comes with a lot longer RTT period.

Stopping Conditions
Find something amazing
2nd Worker found

Espionage
Always on Mansa

Civics

TBD?

Check Every turn
Fancy trick: Turn on "Show Friendly moves". When pressing end of turn, watch carefully for Mansa's research. It may only flash for a second before his EPs increase again.
Trade resources if route become available (sailing)
Save at start and end of turn
Use global culture view to see if AI culture is near
Place signs on all known AI positions & cities, including turn # and unit/stack composition

Sun Tzu Wu

Click to expand...

P.S.: I don't know, why we didn't trade Monotheism from Gandhi already if we had the chance and if we could have switched to it without losing a turn. We need diplopoints from Fair Trade anyhow, and it's easier to get them the shorter one knows the Civ. Why didn't Wastin trade Mono from Gandhi? Reading that we didn't trade for something we could have gotten, makes me thoughtful.

Seraiel

I like the floodplain farm for Shark.

What city is our great person farm? Isn't it Shark?

If it is Shark we definitely need farms for Shark. Even if it isn't, the farm is worth it.
Whips at 4 pop with a granary make a tile with +2 food nearly as good as a 6 hammer tile just hammer wise. A whipping city is going to produce units faster than a city working 6 hammer tile and growing slowly.

Add to the fact that it's fish might get pillaged, and we really need the farm.

Re: Capitalist
We already have a granary there. So I don't understand Seraiel's comments. I think whipping the library makes sense, but it would be nice if we had fully fleshed out alternatives.

I like the worker build in the Capital despite WastinTime's fierce resistance.

@ bcool:

How do we want to whip that Library?

The city is size 3 when producing the Worker, and we're planning to whip it down to size 2 if I understood this correct.

Then, we want to whip the Library on top, which is not even possible, so I'm assuming that we want to grow on the library until the city is size 4 again, and then whip 4 -> 2 .

This is 2 whips, and we would make more out of the Food and save 1 whip in total if we grew to size 4, 2pop whipped the worker with OF in the Granary, then regrew on the Library and simply produce it normally, leading to a size 5 or 6 city that could directly employ Specialists and not a size 5 city that still has whipping anger.

I didn't play through the test game, but I'm assuming Kaitzilla worked out the food so that on T52 we will be 4 pop so he is 2 pop whipping the library on T52.

Even at 2 pop the library will produce ~3 research. I would much rather have the library as early as possible and get its benefit early. It will grow quickly at 2 pop working the wheat and the floodplain.

Feel free to play out a test game following Kaitzilla's tile use and tally up the research you produce compared your plan.

Prove to me that it is better.

If we skip the chariot and worker in the capital we can get the library T47 I believe. That is pretty significant. Gets us currency by T51 easily.

The chariot and worker in the capital are costing us about 30 research from currency earlier and the library earlier.

Can we produce the chariot in Pigs?