Improving Protective Trait

Hello Guys,

Just thinking aloud, maybe we can improve the protective trait with the following attributes:

• Archery and Gunpowder Units receive Drill I and City Garrison I
• Double production speeds for Walls and Castle
• +75% Trade Route Yield

My idea is the 75% trade route yield would help the player some decent economic benefits throughout the game. I am guessing that would roughly translate to +1 (early game) to +5 (late game) raw commerce per city.

What do you guys think? Does it look more balanced? Is it worthless? overpowered?

It doesn't make sense to yield extra trade route yield if you are Protective. This trait makes more sense if it is on a FIN but we know that adding this to FIN makes it more imbalanced as it is right now. Anyway, balance-wise, I don't think it would help PRO that much since the increase in the yield can only be marginally felt when you build TGL (which increases reliance on wonders) on certain maps and on the later stages of the game in which it is probably insignificant when you are already finishing the game already.

Well, my idea is having a boost in trade route would mean some synergy with castles. Secondly, I got the feeling that since you would "turtle" around. It makes more sense that you focus on peaceful expansion and leave your opponents alive for the time being for trade routes.

Now, although the commerce is marginal. Take note that you are not working on a tile to gain the benefit of it unlike the financial trait. This should give you flexibility to work on which tiles you want.

PROtective is fine how it is.
Just a bit weak against AI, but really good in all multiplayer games I have played.

I don't have a lot of experience on bts multiplayer games so can't argue with that

I've been wondering for a while... What if Protective gave free walls in every city? Just like one of the Founding Fathers in the original Colonization. That way, castles would be easier to build (in most games I never build castles because I hadn't built walls so they just don't appear in the city buildings list).

Interesting... but I feel it sounds illogical to put walls/castles in each city.

Traderoutes % doesn't fit thematically in PRO for me.

I kinda like giving PRO passive espionage defense so espionage missions against PRO cost more and have lower success %.

K-Mod has double production for Security Bureau which is also a good thematic fit, though it comes very late in the game.

You could buff PRO by buffing Walls/Castle or nerfing siege. Lower the rate that catapults/trebs bombard city defense even further or give Walls/Castle a static defense boost like building on hills that can't be bombarded away. Eg. +10% Walls, another +15% Castles.

And by the way, welcome to the forums pandamancer! : )

fantsu said:

PROtective is fine how it is.
Just a bit weak against AI, but really good in all multiplayer games I have played.

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This is what makes PRO such a sticky trait, I think - I don't see how you can make it worthwhile in SP without then making it overpowered in MP.

The problem with PRO is that, being defensive in nature, it's almost overpowered in the hands of the AI and underpowered for humans. Any buff to PRO should therefore be something that would benefit human players only.

My idea? Reduced thresholds for conducting passive espionage missions like "see demographics". The AI doesn't gain anything from this because it can already see everything on the board. But it would allow a human player to spread their EP around more effectively.

I remember looking into it a long time ago and concluded it would have to be an SDK mod, there's no way to adjust these thresholds via Python or XML.

Perhaps if we allow ourselves to think a little bit outside the box the solution could like with the promotion Protective gives.

What if we, say, replaced City Guard with a different promotion called "Home Guard" that gives units bonuses when fighting inside their cultural borders, whether they are attacking or defending? This would mean you would benefit even if you were defending your improvements or launching a counter-assault on the opposing stack as long as the fighting occurs within your own territory. This would indirectly make protective a bit more flexible without making it overpowered in multiplayer.
The promotion would probably have to apply more widely than the present Archer and Gunpowder units.

Little Faith said:

Perhaps if we allow ourselves to think a little bit outside the box the solution could like with the promotion Protective gives.

What if we, say, replaced City Guard with a different promotion called "Home Guard" that gives units bonuses when fighting inside their cultural borders, whether they are attacking or defending? This would mean you would benefit even if you were defending your improvements or launching a counter-assault on the opposing stack as long as the fighting occurs within your own territory. This would indirectly make protective a bit more flexible without making it overpowered in multiplayer.
The promotion would probably have to apply more widely than the present Archer and Gunpowder units.

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Kinda like the GW that gives more GG's for fighting your own territory so I see how it could be done. Except Multiplayer is where Drill/CG is most useful; any buff better than CG in your own territory is a huge improvement because you'd be proactively taking out opposing units as opposed to defending in your ciites.

I guess it could work if you wanna redesign PRO (like if you got rid of Drill too and gave +25% to all units in territory) but I think PRO just needs a little peaceful nudge. The economic improvement suggested by the OP is on the right track but isn't the right theme for a PRO ability, for me.

If you want to buff Protective, I'd look more at changing the Drill promotions, not the trait itself. Drill I is pretty awful, so what I did in my game is swap the first strike chance from Drill I with one of the guaranteed first strikes from Drill IV, and let Drill unlock the same higher-level promotions that Combat does.

I've seen a lot of people suggest espionage related bonuses for Protective. If that's your inclination, cheaper spies might fit, and/or the cheaper Security Bureaus you already mentioned. Also, I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one mod that gives Protective extra happiness from Walls and Castles, which might be something to consider.

Drill line isn't awful, it's what makes IMM/Deity AW possible!

Jabarto said:

If you want to buff Protective, I'd look more at changing the Drill promotions, not the trait itself. Drill I is pretty awful, so what I did in my game is swap the first strike chance from Drill I with one of the guaranteed first strikes from Drill IV, and let Drill unlock the same higher-level promotions that Combat does.

I've seen a lot of people suggest espionage related bonuses for Protective. If that's your inclination, cheaper spies might fit, and/or the cheaper Security Bureaus you already mentioned. Also, I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one mod that gives Protective extra happiness from Walls and Castles, which might be something to consider.

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Drill is an interesting point. Once again in the K-ModAI mod I play Drill is a tiny bit better with a collateral damage reduction that is spread out between each level.

The problem with Drill is:

• Camel Archer
• Conquistador
• Cuirassier
• Holkan
• Horse Archer
• Knight
• Numidian Cavalry
• Oromo Warrior
• War Chariot

I would remove 'Immune to First Strikes' from every mounted unit. Let them take Flanking II if they want it. Nobody is immune to Combat promotions.

Also, if anyone is interested ideas like this have been brought up in the If you were in charge of a new CIV IV patch... thread I made which discusses more than just PRO buffs (I like this thread too tho).
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=510829

Tachywaxon said:

Drill line isn't awful, it's what makes IMM/Deity AW possible!

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I meant Drill I specifically. The rest of the line is good.

plastiqe said:

Drill is an interesting point. Once again in the K-ModAI mod I play Drill is a tiny bit better with a collateral damage reduction that is spread out between each level.

The problem with Drill is:

• Camel Archer
• Conquistador
• Cuirassier
• Holkan
• Horse Archer
• Knight
• Numidian Cavalry
• Oromo Warrior
• War Chariot

I would remove 'Immune to First Strikes' from every mounted unit. Let them take Flanking II if they want it. Nobody is immune to Combat promotions.

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Yup, I play K-Mod almost exclusively ("my" mod is just a lot of tweaks layered on top of it) and I remember him doing that. In fact, I think it also does that "Drill unlocks the same promotions as Combat thing", too.

Removing first strike from mounted units is actually an interesting idea. I think I'll give it a shot and see how it works out (I think mounted units are too good at attacking cities, this would help bring them in line, and with the Stables it's very easy to get Flanking II like you said).

plastiqe said:

Also, if anyone is interested ideas like this have been brought up in the If you were in charge of a new CIV IV patch... thread I made which discusses more than just PRO buffs (I like this thread too tho).
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=510829

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That looks like a good thread. I might pick it for ideas or post some of mine later (I jot them down on a Word file as they come to me, and I've got about 2 pages worth by now).

I like protective as it is. Obviously it would be stronger if it had an economic bonus, but mostly I think it's just misused and requires a different form of warfare to get the most out of it.

Making castles available earlier in the game would up the value of protective considerably. Or make them obsolete later.

Wild idea, but maybe some sort of boost to city growth. Population grows faster because of the stability of a protective empire.

*sigh* it's hard to join the discussion if you are living at the other side of the globe

Thanks plastiqe, yeah first post!

Guys, the reason why I wrote this post is because I noticed that the existing protective trait lack something of a "snowball effect". So check this out:

• Aggressive - faster barracks and stronger units to let you win early war putting you in a good position
• Industrious - some wonders can help in expansion, economy, military or research
• Charismatic - early +2 happiness for more whipping or bigger cities. More promotions
• Financial - build early cottage for high-commerce town later on
• Expansive - faster granaries for faster growth and faster worker
• Imperialistic - faster settler for better city spot and head start in founding cities
• Organized - Lots of essential cheap buildings, mid-late game upkeep savings
• Spiritual - Exploit civics for more production/research/great people generation/unit experience/espionage points/commerce on specific situation
• Creative - faster border pop to hook up resources, early library, faster production of culture buildings
• Philosophical - more great people to aid research/economy
• Protective - build walls and protective units, hoping for the enemy to come to your borders... wait, WHAT? Maybe break out during gunpowder age but what if I don't want to go to war?

As you can see, other traits is like the father giving some inheritance to the son to succeed in life. But in the case of protective, it's like the father buying an insurance hoping that something bad won't happen to the son (Sorry for those who work on insurance company, no pun intended). I think it does not help the son in the long run.

Another thing why I want to push the trade route advantage is because historically speaking the protective civs:

• China - known for the silk road trade.
• Japan - Meiji Era Restoration. Where after a long period of domestic peace caused economic prosperity
• Arabia - Islamic Golden Age. Due to exchange of goods and ideas, some of the original Hellenic knowledge were preserved.
• Korea - in ancient times, although they are late in implementing monetary system but barter system among China and Japan is strong
• Great Britain under Churchill - economy was crappy during the great depression. But still stayed afloat compared with other European countries at that time.
• Sumeria - not enough info but their science is good during their time.
• HRE - no idea, I was sleeping in the class that time
• Native American - I am not familiar with this, sorry

The idea here is not that the people in each civilization are necessarily rich (that will be a financial trait) but rather business system that time is well established. That's why I am inclined for trade routes.

*side note: I really don't feel to mess up with the drill promotion line cause it might affect other non-archery/gunpowder units with drill promotions.

pandamancer said:

Native American - I am not familiar with this, sorry

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Sitting Bull (a really strange choice for a leader) does not fit in with the others however...

Cahokia (the first N.A. city in the game) was a giant trade empire stretching from the great divide to the Appalachians, and from the great lakes to the gulf of Mexico. The empire relied on trade routes along the Mississippi River and it's tributaries to keep peace and cooperation among all the different vassal states (if you will) of Cahokia.

pandamancer said:

Guys, the reason why I wrote this post is because I noticed that the existing protective trait lack something of a "snowball effect".

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This is how I create a snowballing effect with protective, and it comes down to choking.

Early scouting is very important, as is archery. I beeline archery when I play protective, which I realize is an unusual choice. But my goal is to create an archer as early as possible.

With only one protective archer you can seriously stunt the growth of one of your neighbors. So I use my first warrior to scout and find my neighbors, then I try to choose one that has good economic land between me and him. Preferably one that my other neighbors do not get along with so I can keep them happy with me.

Then I might worker steal with my warrior if I have an archer on the way. The warrior and worker are sent back home while the archer prevents the AI from expanding. I might just squat on a hill between him and I, other times I pillage, and sometimes I call peace treaties in between to steal more workers.

With the land that opens up (that he would have taken) I can "peacefully" expand and create a large turtle-ing empire. It's like a passive aggressive form of warfare.

If protective had an economic benefit it would have to be a minor one, otherwise it would be overpowered in the hands of someone who uses it appropriately, IMO.