Improving Protective Trait

pandamancer · Oct 11, 2013

That is situational. Play protective in an isolated start, your trait will be useless.

As you can see, every trait has some tricks in their sleeve for that kind of matter, even with aggressive. I build my economy and wait until post astronomy. With nationalism, I get 2

from barracks. With faster production of drydock and barracks, I can build a shiny navy and army asap to attack someone. In short, my trait has a last chance to shine.

By contrast on protective, you don't gain anything except for CG1 and Drill 1. By the time your opponent declares war on you in industrial period, your walls and castles are useless. Additionally, the +25% espionage and +1 trade route of your castles are useless (no trading partner and no one to spy with).

I agree that protective has a lot of advantages but you simply cannot leverage all of them all the time.

MilesBeyond · Oct 11, 2013

Nexlev said:
\
This is how I create a snowballing effect with protective, and it comes down to choking.

Early scouting is very important, as is archery. I beeline archery when I play protective, which I realize is an unusual choice. But my goal is to create an archer as early as possible.

With only one protective archer you can seriously stunt the growth of one of your neighbors. So I use my first warrior to scout and find my neighbors, then I try to choose one that has good economic land between me and him. Preferably one that my other neighbors do not get along with so I can keep them happy with me.

Then I might worker steal with my warrior if I have an archer on the way. The warrior and worker are sent back home while the archer prevents the AI from expanding. I might just squat on a hill between him and I, other times I pillage, and sometimes I call peace treaties in between to steal more workers.

With the land that opens up (that he would have taken) I can "peacefully" expand and create a large turtle-ing empire. It's like a passive aggressive form of warfare.

If protective had an economic benefit it would have to be a minor one, otherwise it would be overpowered in the hands of someone who uses it appropriately, IMO.

Yeah, but... Is a PRO Archer in that situation really all that much better than a regular one? I mean, okay, yes, if you were to choke him off with a city and guard it with that Archer, then PRO would seem to provide an advantage. As it is now, though, all you're getting from it is a chance at a first strike.

Ghpstage · Oct 11, 2013

MilesBeyond said:
Yeah, but... Is a PRO Archer in that situation really all that much better than a regular one? I mean, okay, yes, if you were to choke him off with a city and guard it with that Archer, then PRO would seem to provide an advantage. As it is now, though, all you're getting from it is a chance at a first strike.

You get slighty more than the first srike chance, having drill 1 allows you to take a counter promotion at 3xp. Though overall its not likely to make too much a difference.

The best choking archers are from Mali, Celts and NA. Mali is self evident but the other twos UBs allow you to get G2 off the bat, making them outstanding for farming AI workers :lol:

Nexlev · Oct 11, 2013

MilesBeyond said:
Yeah, but... Is a PRO Archer in that situation really all that much better than a regular one?

In the context of choking, that first strike chance does make quite a difference. In choking you usually sit on a forested hill, or a forest, or at least a hill. So your archer has favorable odds of defending (the goal is not to use him for attacking). First strikes are more valuable when your unit has a strength advantage.

Second, it's not just one first strike chance, but a first strike chance for every unit that attacks it. It's unlikely that the AI will kill your archer on it's first attack, and each follow up attack is another chance to take no damage.

Third, the AI will not attack out of a city if it does not have enough units to kill you. The first strike is counted into the enemies decision whether to attack or not. So the first strike helps choking by discouraging the enemy from attacking (or being able to expand).

* let me clarify that I'm not trying to sell anyone on the protective trait, even I realize it is a comparatively weak trait. However, it can be leveraged like others and that's what I'm trying to show.

Nexlev · Oct 11, 2013

pandamancer said:
That is situational. Play protective in an isolated start, your trait will be useless.

Let me start off by saying that I agree, protective is very weak with an isolated start. However, it is not useless, and I think your summary overstated the difference (in comparison to aggressive).

Protective still has some advantage post-astronomy if only for the promotions given to drafted units. Protective units also make good naval attackers, imo, because usually naval invasions require one turn of defense before the attack can use seige units. Secondly, re-enforcements take longer to arrive oversees so protective adds a benefit here by improving the survival of your first stack especially after they reside in a city. So in summary, protective units carry a similar benefit in the industrial age to aggressive units... slightly more or less depending on how you look at it.

Castles are also useful post astronomy, in coastal cities, albeit for a short time frame. The extra trade route in coastal cities can be a significant difference to the economy, and the extra defense discourages naval invasions. I disagree with the statement that there is no one to spy on, espionage is more difficult oversees but still provides a benefit, and is especially important in naval invasions imo. Using spies to revolt a coastal city leverages the element of surprise that is inherent to a naval invasion.

Getting back to my agreement with you however. The key that makes protective fall short of aggressive in an isolated start (or maybe any start) is the short time frame for castles. If protective is to be given a boost, I think that's where it should be applied. Either make castles obsolete later (I don't understand the connection to economics anyways) or replace castles and maybe walls too with a building that still applies in the industrial era.

Nexlev · Oct 11, 2013

Ghpstage said:
The best choking archers are from Mali, Celts and NA.

Agreed. The Celts can be beastly, and are just downright fun to play IMO. I always promote my "chokers" along the guerrilla line anyways, so starting with GII... instant chokehold. And NA is actually one of my favorite civs, just for preference though

Churchill is also very effective at the choke method. Not so much because his units are extra-special chokers (though with quicker promotions they are) but because he's a great "turtle". All he needs to do is bide his time with a decent size empire (thanks to the choke) and then Redcoats arrive and bam....

Ghpstage · Oct 11, 2013

Bizarrely pro used to be a powerful economic trait due to the cheap walls, at least before they broke overflow in the last patch :lol:

In my opinion the main advantage Agg has over Pro in isolation is that it gives free C1 to warriors, which are the preferred weapon against the barbs. More survivable warriors means less cost in the early game and a better chance of dealing with them without having to invest :science:

in the dead end archery. Its not uncommon that getting hunting will be unnecessary too, which adds more needless :science:

cost and acts as something of a hinderence to using warriors for garrisons, especially with HR!

Its also nice to get access to amphibious at 5XP as lets face it, a naval stack landing faces increased risk from the biggest threat to attacking stacks, seige initiative. Taking the city amphibiously allows you to send out some sacrificial 2 movers to pillage the surrounding roads and turn this to your advantage!

One thing I would change would be to grant the same access to special promotions, Amphibious, Commando and Blitz being the notable ones. This would make Pro a bit better and the Drill line a little more attractive (though its already quite good once you get passed the awful Drill1)

The main benefit from pro comes in the very early game, on high levels, where you can get landed with 1500BC or earlier DoWs. Particularly when starting near a sociopathic AI you can be forced to build a fortified border city (hilltop if possible, walls stuffed with archers) there you can notice your cheap walls and your archers are considerably more cost effective.
Secondary is making the drill line a lot more attractive, and drill has quite a bit of uniqueness going on.

A +1

from Walls for pro, or perhaps for everyone would be a boost to pro too.

pandamancer · Oct 12, 2013

Nexlev said:
Protective still has some advantage post-astronomy if only for the promotions given to drafted units. Protective units also make good naval attackers, imo, because usually naval invasions require one turn of defense before the attack can use seige units. Secondly, re-enforcements take longer to arrive oversees so protective adds a benefit here by improving the survival of your first stack especially after they reside in a city. So in summary, protective units carry a similar benefit in the industrial age to aggressive units... slightly more or less depending on how you look at it.

You get a point in the defense bonus and -X% damage from bombard. But gunpowder units ignore them right? So you are left with your protective gunpowder, siege units. Hmm, weighing the pros and cons... protective still shines in that situation. Ok, acceptable but where is the "snowball effect"? (think of the inheritance-insurance analogy I stated in the earlier post)

Nexlev said:
Castles are also useful post astronomy, in coastal cities, albeit for a short time frame. The extra trade route in coastal cities can be a significant difference to the economy, and the extra defense discourages naval invasions. I disagree with the statement that there is no one to spy on, espionage is more difficult oversees but still provides a benefit, and is especially important in naval invasions imo. Using spies to revolt a coastal city leverages the element of surprise that is inherent to a naval invasion.

Sorry, I did not specify that if you build your castles in medieval period, it is useless except for the +1 raw commerce from trade route.

From the statement above, it means you are stalling economics and consequence will be harsh. You won't have a possible great merchant, corporations, free market and wall street. I think it is counter-intuitive to do so unless you have a good plan to properly utilize the +25% espionage and the 1 trade route from castles? Or if you plan to trade/research economics soon, don't you think the gains are negligible?

Nexlev said:
Getting back to my agreement with you however. The key that makes protective fall short of aggressive in an isolated start (or maybe any start) is the short time frame for castles. If protective is to be given a boost, I think that's where it should be applied. Either make castles obsolete later (I don't understand the connection to economics anyways) or replace castles and maybe walls too with a building that still applies in the industrial era.

I have considered the obsolescence idea before but that will give the Spanish Citadel an unfair advantage (possible +5 exp to artillery, machine gun and even mobile artillery or +5 exp in catapult in ancient era!) I can be wrong but what do you think?

IMO the +25% espionage of the castles is intended to let you know what technologies the AI/player is currently researching. So shutting it off in economics prevents it give too much advantage in espionage.

--

Additionally, I also want to know the good/bad consequence of the additional trade route yield that I stated in the first post. Any suggestions? Comments? Does the idea sound really bad?

pandamancer · Oct 12, 2013

Ghpstage said:
A +1 from Walls for pro, or perhaps for everyone would be a boost to pro too.

This is sounds like a nice idea as well!

Some consequences if you apply the

under normal speed for protective, spiritual and charismatic:

Walls cost 50 :hammers:

but double production speed under Protective or stone
Temples cost 80 :hammers:

but double production speed under Spiritual
Monuments cost 30 :hammers:

under Charismatic (no change)

So that means in early phases of the game, I can get the

boost faster under Protective in comparison with Spiritual or Charismatic (ignoring the Stonehenge wonder)

Ghpstage · Oct 12, 2013

pandamancer said:
This is sounds like a nice idea as well!

Some consequences if you apply the under normal speed for protective, spiritual and charismatic:

Walls cost 50 but double production speed under Protective or stone
Temples cost 80 but double production speed under Spiritual
Monuments cost 30 under Charismatic (no change)

So that means in early phases of the game, I can get the boost faster under Protective in comparison with Spiritual or Charismatic (ignoring the Stonehenge wonder)

I don't see this as a problem, and I would argue against the use of the term 'faster' here as mysticism would still usually come before masonry! Also spiritual doesn't have a double production on one building, it gets it on seven, none of which obsolete and while cities don't usually get huge numbers of religions getting 2 or 3 isn't uncomon or difficult if you want them.
The other traits have other early benefits and are better throughout the game anyway

Its ot going to be a problem even if added only for Pro, the nerf to Pro dished out in the last patch was at least an order of magnitude bigger than this buff would be, and it was far from overpowered then!
You could always make the +1

apply to everyone (where Pro would have advantage in cost like Spi temples) if you felt it was too much.

I have considered the obsolescence idea before but that will give the Spanish Citadel an unfair advantage (possible +5 exp to artillery, machine gun and even mobile artillery or +5 exp in catapult in ancient era!) I can be wrong but what do you think?

Well the Spanish citadel is frequently used to boost artillery as it is, simply by avoiding economics for a while.

The penalties for doing this aren't as harsh as you might think, if your rushing to artillery with a citadel then your planning war in the nearish future, often making State Property more attractive than Free Market and corps, the GM tends to get ignored at high levels anyway and wall street really isn't all that good. The biggest issue is that you can't get Assembly Line without Economics!

Additionally, I also want to know the good/bad consequence of the additional trade route yield that I stated in the first post. Any suggestions? Comments? Does the idea sound really bad?

My concern would be its impact on early expansion, +1 :commerce:

per city is going to have a significant impact at a point where a trade route is usually worth 1 :commerce:

, it may also lead to some absurd situations involving the GLH....

With the wonky way trade routes work, after the early period its going to have so little imact as to be more or less insignificant.

pandamancer · Oct 12, 2013

Ghpstage said:
You could always make the +1 apply to everyone (where Pro would have advantage in cost like Spi temples) if you felt it was too much.

I'm not against it actually. The buff sounds pretty solid.

Ghpstage said:
Well the Spanish citadel is frequently used to boost artillery as it is, simply by avoiding economics for a while.

The penalties for doing this aren't as harsh as you might think, if your rushing to artillery with a citadel then your planning war in the nearish future, often making State Property more attractive than Free Market and corps, the GM tends to get ignored at high levels anyway and wall street really isn't all that good. The biggest issue is that you can't get Assembly Line without Economics!

I see. Now that you mentioned it, I am curious how much stronger is doing a state property/workshop compared with corporation(like mining or sid sushi)/free market in terms of economic and military production capabilities. Maybe I need to play differently next time

Ghpstage said:
My concern would be its impact on early expansion, +1 per city is going to have a significant impact at a point where a trade route is usually worth 1, it may also lead to some absurd situations involving the GLH....

With the wonky way trade routes work, after the early period its going to have so little impact as to be more or less insignificant.

If we do a conservative computation (assuming all cities are less than size 10 and same island):

domestic trade route would yield: 1 :commerce:

domestic trade route with 75% bonus would yield: 2 :commerce:

(+25% connection from capital and 75% bonus)

foreign trade route would yield: 2 :commerce:

(150% from sustained peace + foreign city and 25% connection from capital. Results round down)
foreign trade route with 75% bonus would yield: 3 :commerce:

(150% from sustained peace and foreign city, 25% connection from capital and 75% bonus)

So, with sailing and currency tech you gain additional 2 :commerce:

regardless if you have domestic or foreign routes. But wait, when you build castles you can get another additional 2-3 :commerce:

totaling to 4-5 :commerce:

.

In case you get the GLH, it gets better since the +2 trade routes will mean you are getting 4-6 :commerce:

(apply the rules above) more than your opponents. now you have a potential of gaining 8-11 :commerce:

per city! Wow! even Hannibal will respect you :lol:

What if you even get the ToA? :eek:

Yes, it gets weaker in time. The idea was to let the trade route give a boost to the protective civs' research/economy early on to have a better chance win the liberalism race. Maybe he might not get it on time. But he is not far from gunpowder/steel/rifling if he wants military conquest. Or even nationalism/constitution/democracy if he wants espionage gains. The question now is how soon? That's what I cannot answer yet.

plastiqe · Oct 12, 2013

GLH is overpowered enough already, depending on the map you play.

==================================================

For the happiness bonus, I would add something similar instead to Castles under the condition that it only works in Monarchy. Here I'm saying buff Castles, buff PRO that gets cheaper castles, and buff Monarchy.

Monarchy is great because it comes early but it's outclassed by everything that comes afterwards. There are specific situations like chain whipping where it's useful but by and large once you have Representation, Monarchy is useless.
Buff:

Under Monarchy, Castles give an additional +1

per military unit in the city.

So Castles + Monarchy become an avenue for efficient mid game happiness and Monarchy can potentially be much better than Rep under the right circumstance. All of the sudden PRO's bonus is meaningful because Walls/Castles go from ok to a powerful combo for happiness because you can use it in every city.

drewisfat · Oct 13, 2013

I agree that if you add

it should be castle not walls. Castle is virtually useless on the higher levels, although the ais build it a lot. So buffing it with happiness = doesn't really affect the cheating AI but makes it better for you to build, and it would be a slight buff to PRO.

Problem with AGG/PRO is that they don't really help your economy, and if they gave insane fighting bonuses the game would get wonky.

My idea = AGG gives -50% unit costs (in maintenance)
PRO = gives double movement speed on roads you use.

AGG here would make a war economy more competitive with a normal economy, when being AGG. The movement bonus on PRO sounds wacky at first, but I think it does several important things: Greatly helps defense, and more so with the human than ai; slightly helps the economy, in the sense that workers and units are moving faster; helps offense a little bit in the sense you get to the front lines quicker; and lastly makes the trait a lot more fun to play with

Yxklyx · Oct 14, 2013

I've been playing with my mod for years - one of the first things I changed was make Walls give +1

while also reducing the base happiness due to difficulty by 1 as well. Castles are still sucky though unless you play Spain - some good ideas here...

I've been playing PRO civs as a handicap - it's not necessary that every trait be equal.

pandamancer · Oct 23, 2013

drewisfat said:
PRO = gives double movement speed on roads you use.

Interesting. Care to elaborate about this? Does this apply to enemy roads as well? What if I have commando promotion? Does my worker also have this buff or is this limited to archery and gunpowder units?

Kid R · Oct 23, 2013

A simple buff to protective which would be in keeping with the trait's name, and not help the AIs or top players too much while adding a bit of interest for the rest of us?

Give scouts 2 strength instead of 1 (scouts could do with a buff anyway)
Or, let settlers defend, with say strength 3
Or, workers count as military garrison units
Or, more military happiness per garrison unit, say maybe +50%
Or, free sentry promo for scouts

The boost to passive espionage benefits somebody mentioned sounds good.

Olson · Oct 29, 2013

pandamancer said:
Hello Guys,

Just thinking aloud, maybe we can improve the protective trait with the following attributes:

Archery and Gunpowder Units receive Drill I and City Garrison I

Double production speeds for Walls and Castle

+75% Trade Route Yield

My idea is the 75% trade route yield would help the player some decent economic benefits throughout the game. I am guessing that would roughly translate to +1 (early game) to +5 (late game) raw commerce per city.

What do you guys think? Does it look more balanced? Is it worthless? overpowered?

I think Protective is fine the way it is as I really don't want to see the AI with something better. However, I would go for a Protective UU that is -50%+ collateral damage when not in it's own cultural boundries. But that would only make sense if collateral damage is normally higher in foreign territory.

pandamancer · Nov 15, 2013

^ I think giving another -50% collateral can be exploitable. When the protective AI marched its SoD to the enemy territory. It would be hard to repel it since units that kills SoD like siege is not as effective as it used to be.

nfw · Nov 15, 2013

Probably just a 10% bonus or some such for fighting inside own culture borders, instead of free promotions.

Conversely aggressive could get a bonus for fighting outside of culture border.

lindsay40k · Nov 15, 2013

How about PRO giving you +100% on internal trade routes? Toku's behaviour will be a lot more sensible and Mercantilism a bit more competitive.

edit: AKA what @monkeybone said

Improving Protective Trait

Prince

Prince

Deity

King

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Deity

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Deity

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Grinch

King

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Emperor

Warlord

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