So, what's happening in Turkey?
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Tahuti
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Islam had a existence very similar to early Christianity in its early history with a small group of dedicated but persecuted followers. The difference was that the Muslims went on to violently overthrow their Arab overlords and became the dominant religion of a state very quickly, unlike the Christians.
Loppan Torkel
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Do they live in Turkey?
Loppan Torkel
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So.. what's happening?
r16
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with apologies to everyone who thinks this is just ordinary politics where power corrupts and it's easy to do money when in power , it has real foreign influence one way or the other . Yet the Western Media might not have reported it or glossed it all over with a nice sheen but the affairs were also there all along . Not to get myself further noticed but it was a real risk for any TV presenter to relate to the Party as A-K-P instead of the Ak ( Clean ) Party they insisted upon to be called as . People have been sacked over by this . A forum search might have found the same exact sentences posted 6 months back .
r16
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well , am rather more comfortable writing at home , instead of web cafes where time is indeed money and ı need ages to re-read and correct all the misspellings . Not that it's supposed to make any difference in content ; it's merely a more relaxed environment .
in the first place , expect no arguments on whether the charges on corruption are true or not . A "Yes" or "No" stance on the question is taking sides : Affirmative places you with the Congregation , Negative assures your presence within Party ranks . Mustache above , beard below , oh , which way to spit ? Don't take this as an insult on both sides , it's merely a phrase in Turkish that describes indecision in a risky situation . For despite all the glamorous reportage of advances in Turkey , nothing has actually changed from the bad old days . Maybe the ownership of exalted positions ... Which -as foretold- was actually nuthin' surprising in the light of the certain Western institutions telling the Military bigshots they would be cleared in the end . Of all the charges and judicial processing that got us all here in the first place . We being all the people who live within the borders of a country expected to be destroyed for good by 2015 . We being all the people supposed to bury anything from a million and upwards of us in our destruction . Ridiculous ?
but then a straight report as far it's possible would be more in order .
apart from a detour on why Kemal wouldn't have liked any of the Kemalists of these days . It's a given ; the so called Kemalists are using his popularity -real or imagined after such a long period of time where he was an unfallible father figure- to further their own political goals . And such Kemalists do include figures under foreign pay ; the knowledge of which is widespread even among the non-proffessionals . But the phrase is simply a propaganda line that now serves the both sides of the new Turkey : it was made up by the Congregation in all likelyhood to belittle the Main Opposition which showed signs of "proper opposition" at times . And if you think Kemal would have voted for the Party and not the followers of the Single Party State Party he founded , he wouldn't be alone . English language editions of the new Turkey media will not exactly mention that Prophet Muhammed was given a Party ID card , too . (Honestly the work of a couple of people on Social Media ...) The new Turkey knows propaganda , right ? The future belongs to the new Turkey , yet ...
just before the two sides of the same coin fell on each other in the "Coup of Feb. 7" , a newspaper column offered the deal : The PM becomes President and a move to re-declare the Caliphate begins , the candidate for the post naturally from the Congregation ranks . The PM felt he had enough power to become the President with massively increased powers . Congregation moved in to arrest the head of the Intelligence service , which happens to be a Party instrument in the Turkey of the 21st Century . A short sharp clash . Then came the Gezi events , which by the way was meant to ...
my mother's cellphone rings to announce the arrival of an SMS which reads : "Can not display, missing text" ...
there's nothing missing whatsoever . In Turkey every single person has the right to be paranoid . The Gezi events started from the new Turkey's insistence on winning any argument . To glorify the 1909 Rebellion against the influence of Ittihad in that they could do anything they liked irregardless of anything , the smarties decided they needed to re-build the barracks of those Rebels and to that end they had to cut down some trees . You know the stinking tree huggers ; they just have to whine and cry at the righteous glory of chainsaws . The project was taken to court and the smarties saw that could mobilize a couple of people , just a couple , to vote against the Party ; the Congregation at the time was biding time . So they had this seperatist MP , the not Rachel Corrie dude , to heroically stand in the way of bulldozers to steal some glory ; he's currently polling something like 8% in Istanbul -no doubt taking some votes from the Opposition . In any case they beat up a couple of those stinking tree lovers . And then horrors , oh , the horrors ...
the White Turks , the affluent classes took to the streets ; ı personally had to stop referring them as the perfection of spinelessness ...To be a stinking tree hugger you certainly need some income to waste your time picketing construction sites and this tends to mean you are in the affluent classes yourself . Police regularly beats the cr_p out of "Workers" or "Leftists"; hundreds of retirees and business professionals like stock traders are apparently quite a different proposition . Congregation moved in early to support the "democratic rights" ; they were spotted immediately ... The Goverment entrenched ; one could not believe his ears at the language . But then they were not wary of people in the streets ; when violence in public control fails more violence is a natural . Which require more boots on the ground . The Police was getting tired , media reported a request on the sports fans' leaderships to stop the fans for a day , the unit in question had been on the streets for 4 days straight ...
suddenly a flood of communiques from the Military . The goverment generals pushing reports on the smuggler bands infiltrating and beaten back , "invasions" by 2000 men on foot and 300-400 on horseback ! You know , if you scratch those smugglaries enough , they even turn out to be some bunch of Arabs ... Reinforced by the revelations that the goverment generals had not accepted the plans to invade Syria in October-November 2012 , no doubt to ethnically cleanse or something the Alawites and the Alevis and whatever they fancy . Further reinforced by the revelations that the "active collaboration" with the seperatists was meant to induce them to leave the country to go and die in Syria . Goverment generals had to clear the Army to supress and somebody had to keep the borders . (This somebody is a general reference to anybody , not the Somebody .)
the Party was all about "International Conspiracy" back then , too . Yet , they finally backed down . Offered to respect the decision of the courts , stop beating stinking tree-huggers and stuff . The White Turks went home , they are not Anarchists by any means . The venue was left to the Alevis , with 5 or 6 killed , one certainly by intent by a policeman . It petered out .
despite the later revelation of the courts had already decided the construction was illegal and kept the decision to themselves for some 10 days or two weeks as people were dying in the streets . With further strenghtening of the feeling that the Party had to be quicker in taking the Judiciary from the Congregation . Funny moments , too . Some bunch of artists sent a group amongst them to talk with the PM , which the book on public control suggests is a proper way to step back from excesses ; it shouldn't hurt the artists much if one writes that they were invited . Including the female singer who won the Eurovision song contest in 2003 or something . Her reward for being called a lackey of the Goverment for talking politely to the PM ? When her also-musician brother sounds utterly like to vote for the A-K-P, too ? All the artists in question are now in court for being the represantatives of the Anarchists ...
in the first place , expect no arguments on whether the charges on corruption are true or not . A "Yes" or "No" stance on the question is taking sides : Affirmative places you with the Congregation , Negative assures your presence within Party ranks . Mustache above , beard below , oh , which way to spit ? Don't take this as an insult on both sides , it's merely a phrase in Turkish that describes indecision in a risky situation . For despite all the glamorous reportage of advances in Turkey , nothing has actually changed from the bad old days . Maybe the ownership of exalted positions ... Which -as foretold- was actually nuthin' surprising in the light of the certain Western institutions telling the Military bigshots they would be cleared in the end . Of all the charges and judicial processing that got us all here in the first place . We being all the people who live within the borders of a country expected to be destroyed for good by 2015 . We being all the people supposed to bury anything from a million and upwards of us in our destruction . Ridiculous ?
but then a straight report as far it's possible would be more in order .
apart from a detour on why Kemal wouldn't have liked any of the Kemalists of these days . It's a given ; the so called Kemalists are using his popularity -real or imagined after such a long period of time where he was an unfallible father figure- to further their own political goals . And such Kemalists do include figures under foreign pay ; the knowledge of which is widespread even among the non-proffessionals . But the phrase is simply a propaganda line that now serves the both sides of the new Turkey : it was made up by the Congregation in all likelyhood to belittle the Main Opposition which showed signs of "proper opposition" at times . And if you think Kemal would have voted for the Party and not the followers of the Single Party State Party he founded , he wouldn't be alone . English language editions of the new Turkey media will not exactly mention that Prophet Muhammed was given a Party ID card , too . (Honestly the work of a couple of people on Social Media ...) The new Turkey knows propaganda , right ? The future belongs to the new Turkey , yet ...
just before the two sides of the same coin fell on each other in the "Coup of Feb. 7" , a newspaper column offered the deal : The PM becomes President and a move to re-declare the Caliphate begins , the candidate for the post naturally from the Congregation ranks . The PM felt he had enough power to become the President with massively increased powers . Congregation moved in to arrest the head of the Intelligence service , which happens to be a Party instrument in the Turkey of the 21st Century . A short sharp clash . Then came the Gezi events , which by the way was meant to ...
my mother's cellphone rings to announce the arrival of an SMS which reads : "Can not display, missing text" ...
there's nothing missing whatsoever . In Turkey every single person has the right to be paranoid . The Gezi events started from the new Turkey's insistence on winning any argument . To glorify the 1909 Rebellion against the influence of Ittihad in that they could do anything they liked irregardless of anything , the smarties decided they needed to re-build the barracks of those Rebels and to that end they had to cut down some trees . You know the stinking tree huggers ; they just have to whine and cry at the righteous glory of chainsaws . The project was taken to court and the smarties saw that could mobilize a couple of people , just a couple , to vote against the Party ; the Congregation at the time was biding time . So they had this seperatist MP , the not Rachel Corrie dude , to heroically stand in the way of bulldozers to steal some glory ; he's currently polling something like 8% in Istanbul -no doubt taking some votes from the Opposition . In any case they beat up a couple of those stinking tree lovers . And then horrors , oh , the horrors ...
the White Turks , the affluent classes took to the streets ; ı personally had to stop referring them as the perfection of spinelessness ...To be a stinking tree hugger you certainly need some income to waste your time picketing construction sites and this tends to mean you are in the affluent classes yourself . Police regularly beats the cr_p out of "Workers" or "Leftists"; hundreds of retirees and business professionals like stock traders are apparently quite a different proposition . Congregation moved in early to support the "democratic rights" ; they were spotted immediately ... The Goverment entrenched ; one could not believe his ears at the language . But then they were not wary of people in the streets ; when violence in public control fails more violence is a natural . Which require more boots on the ground . The Police was getting tired , media reported a request on the sports fans' leaderships to stop the fans for a day , the unit in question had been on the streets for 4 days straight ...
suddenly a flood of communiques from the Military . The goverment generals pushing reports on the smuggler bands infiltrating and beaten back , "invasions" by 2000 men on foot and 300-400 on horseback ! You know , if you scratch those smugglaries enough , they even turn out to be some bunch of Arabs ... Reinforced by the revelations that the goverment generals had not accepted the plans to invade Syria in October-November 2012 , no doubt to ethnically cleanse or something the Alawites and the Alevis and whatever they fancy . Further reinforced by the revelations that the "active collaboration" with the seperatists was meant to induce them to leave the country to go and die in Syria . Goverment generals had to clear the Army to supress and somebody had to keep the borders . (This somebody is a general reference to anybody , not the Somebody .)
the Party was all about "International Conspiracy" back then , too . Yet , they finally backed down . Offered to respect the decision of the courts , stop beating stinking tree-huggers and stuff . The White Turks went home , they are not Anarchists by any means . The venue was left to the Alevis , with 5 or 6 killed , one certainly by intent by a policeman . It petered out .
despite the later revelation of the courts had already decided the construction was illegal and kept the decision to themselves for some 10 days or two weeks as people were dying in the streets . With further strenghtening of the feeling that the Party had to be quicker in taking the Judiciary from the Congregation . Funny moments , too . Some bunch of artists sent a group amongst them to talk with the PM , which the book on public control suggests is a proper way to step back from excesses ; it shouldn't hurt the artists much if one writes that they were invited . Including the female singer who won the Eurovision song contest in 2003 or something . Her reward for being called a lackey of the Goverment for talking politely to the PM ? When her also-musician brother sounds utterly like to vote for the A-K-P, too ? All the artists in question are now in court for being the represantatives of the Anarchists ...
r16
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it was coming up . The Goverment has been deadly intent to remove the Congregation from all possible fields of influence and the feelings were sort of mutual . The talk was in the air , with hints of a sex scandal ; ı doubt any politician in country ever gets laid without getting taped ... It turned out to be a larger scale thing . With implications of connecting the PM to sponsorship of El Kaide , even if the Congregation is readily reported to have its own Kurdish Taliban ...
Ankara will never ever learn that when some bunch of Americans come and tell you that you can rule some area with proxy ops , you should tell them to get lost ... 'Cause if you ever say yes , the Americans will be taping every single operative of yours . The newlies have no shame in revealing that this entire Arabian Spring was supposedly meant to control the Middle East with a properly attuned Turkish leadership through a shining success story of a moderate and enlightened Islam , urging the heretics to see wisdom at even this late hour . There is this daughter of an Intelligence icon , there are names to call her in addition to being a voice of the Counter-revolution but the death of his father is first expected ; May God really Give him a long and healty life ... The former advisor to PM-now dean of an university wiggles uneasily as a still unreformed smarty talks of glorious new Turkey that will still save the Middle East with our sunnier Sunni brothers . Everybody gets accused , starting from Russians in stopping this glorious walk to glorious glory ...
'cause the transformation to achieve the shining success story has been almost radioactive . 'Cause the future was so glorious and 'cause there surely had to be fools and traitors to oppose all that , the smarties have not shied from creation of two "Nations" : One that "votes" for the transformation and everything it implies and one that votes not . With proper shows of force wherever applicable or not . Whenever anybody opposes one single tenet of any Goverment planning , Goverment Ministers give lectures on the virtues of Democracy and elections which in effect says "Shut the Foxtrot up, we have more than 50% of the vote." One "glorious" moment in the Gezi events was all those newly elites declaring eternal respect for the "leadership" of the Gezi and anybody that opposed ; only if the people in question accepted to be of the "Other" . Translated as Jews for the benefit of dumber people in CFC ... Yeah , you can not be a Turk if you oppose in the new Turkey . The Western Media will not yet report on this , nor on the rabidly outspoken Opposition MP who declared that had this been the 1940s anybody who didn't "think the same" would have been sent to the gas chambers . With "correct" or "corrected" documentation . Of course not true ; she actually said "You would make soap out of us all."
it's sadly revealing to see the same Ministers to declare all the evidence against their sons investigated on corruption charges are planted or fabricated . There was nothing fabricated when it was the turn of the Military , who of course feared America more , far more than it feared its democratically elected Civilian masters . The fear of Military doing somethin' has definately receded ; on the first days the entire staff of a border outpost were arrested on charges of smuggling ; which can naturally be true . On the first day of the "Coup of Dec. 17" an Army helicopter crashed , within a week a small ship capsized in a Navy Shipyard ; which can be truly accidents with 14 killed in total . The PM recounted all the new shiny toys being bought for the Armed Forces , which can naturally be a bragging for votes . Yet , the Party seems to be backtracking from the revelation that the Congregation framed the Military with Party help . It's America , mon ami , who had the Main Opposition leadership visiting Washington just before , America who can be vicious when Party newspapers declare the Colonial Governor in Ankara has supposedly said they would all watch the fall of the Empire of the Party . In contrast to reports of FBI raids on the schools of the Congregation on US soil . America the culprit , America the foil with a hope that people might be distracted . America which still finds it 1000000% applicable to accept it will be engagements in the open , across the board , in full spectrum instead of million dead is just pipedream . 'Cause , you know the tendency all political processes in the new Turkey is solely in the direction of total disintegration of all political processes . Talking will not stop the forthcoming Civil War .
in such grand schemes of things naturally people who suffer are people who have to work for a living . The PM wanted the resignation of a Minister and that Minister didn't really want to ; there are no guarantees that it won't be a case of out of sight , out of heart so that the Goverment will allow him to sink as some sort of a scapegoat . The TV presenter who was talking with him is another nice face and a decent person as far as ı would know . She really doesn't deserve the commentary that she didn't make any comments when the resigning Minister advised the PM to resign . Just bad luck that she had the noon news . The Channel true to form , as you can reliably expect from the Turkish Media , went on with a pre-view of a nature documentary they would soon air . ı have this notion than penguins are almost revolutionaries in the Western perception with tons of images that supported Linux bids in sales and stuff against the tyranny of Microsoft . In Turkey , penguins today are reactionary conservatives , only because a certain channel had a penguin documentary on at the height of the Taksim riots ...
and ı think ı might be on TV soon . On Candid Camera : standing in front of the old stone bridge near the gas station near to my house , he asks me whether this is the old bridge ; he hasn't been here for quite a long time . Ahh , the museum guide still lives in me . ı wasn't caustic or sarcastic enough to ask how many stone bridges did he see from one horizon to the other .
Ankara will never ever learn that when some bunch of Americans come and tell you that you can rule some area with proxy ops , you should tell them to get lost ... 'Cause if you ever say yes , the Americans will be taping every single operative of yours . The newlies have no shame in revealing that this entire Arabian Spring was supposedly meant to control the Middle East with a properly attuned Turkish leadership through a shining success story of a moderate and enlightened Islam , urging the heretics to see wisdom at even this late hour . There is this daughter of an Intelligence icon , there are names to call her in addition to being a voice of the Counter-revolution but the death of his father is first expected ; May God really Give him a long and healty life ... The former advisor to PM-now dean of an university wiggles uneasily as a still unreformed smarty talks of glorious new Turkey that will still save the Middle East with our sunnier Sunni brothers . Everybody gets accused , starting from Russians in stopping this glorious walk to glorious glory ...
'cause the transformation to achieve the shining success story has been almost radioactive . 'Cause the future was so glorious and 'cause there surely had to be fools and traitors to oppose all that , the smarties have not shied from creation of two "Nations" : One that "votes" for the transformation and everything it implies and one that votes not . With proper shows of force wherever applicable or not . Whenever anybody opposes one single tenet of any Goverment planning , Goverment Ministers give lectures on the virtues of Democracy and elections which in effect says "Shut the Foxtrot up, we have more than 50% of the vote." One "glorious" moment in the Gezi events was all those newly elites declaring eternal respect for the "leadership" of the Gezi and anybody that opposed ; only if the people in question accepted to be of the "Other" . Translated as Jews for the benefit of dumber people in CFC ... Yeah , you can not be a Turk if you oppose in the new Turkey . The Western Media will not yet report on this , nor on the rabidly outspoken Opposition MP who declared that had this been the 1940s anybody who didn't "think the same" would have been sent to the gas chambers . With "correct" or "corrected" documentation . Of course not true ; she actually said "You would make soap out of us all."
it's sadly revealing to see the same Ministers to declare all the evidence against their sons investigated on corruption charges are planted or fabricated . There was nothing fabricated when it was the turn of the Military , who of course feared America more , far more than it feared its democratically elected Civilian masters . The fear of Military doing somethin' has definately receded ; on the first days the entire staff of a border outpost were arrested on charges of smuggling ; which can naturally be true . On the first day of the "Coup of Dec. 17" an Army helicopter crashed , within a week a small ship capsized in a Navy Shipyard ; which can be truly accidents with 14 killed in total . The PM recounted all the new shiny toys being bought for the Armed Forces , which can naturally be a bragging for votes . Yet , the Party seems to be backtracking from the revelation that the Congregation framed the Military with Party help . It's America , mon ami , who had the Main Opposition leadership visiting Washington just before , America who can be vicious when Party newspapers declare the Colonial Governor in Ankara has supposedly said they would all watch the fall of the Empire of the Party . In contrast to reports of FBI raids on the schools of the Congregation on US soil . America the culprit , America the foil with a hope that people might be distracted . America which still finds it 1000000% applicable to accept it will be engagements in the open , across the board , in full spectrum instead of million dead is just pipedream . 'Cause , you know the tendency all political processes in the new Turkey is solely in the direction of total disintegration of all political processes . Talking will not stop the forthcoming Civil War .
in such grand schemes of things naturally people who suffer are people who have to work for a living . The PM wanted the resignation of a Minister and that Minister didn't really want to ; there are no guarantees that it won't be a case of out of sight , out of heart so that the Goverment will allow him to sink as some sort of a scapegoat . The TV presenter who was talking with him is another nice face and a decent person as far as ı would know . She really doesn't deserve the commentary that she didn't make any comments when the resigning Minister advised the PM to resign . Just bad luck that she had the noon news . The Channel true to form , as you can reliably expect from the Turkish Media , went on with a pre-view of a nature documentary they would soon air . ı have this notion than penguins are almost revolutionaries in the Western perception with tons of images that supported Linux bids in sales and stuff against the tyranny of Microsoft . In Turkey , penguins today are reactionary conservatives , only because a certain channel had a penguin documentary on at the height of the Taksim riots ...
and ı think ı might be on TV soon . On Candid Camera : standing in front of the old stone bridge near the gas station near to my house , he asks me whether this is the old bridge ; he hasn't been here for quite a long time . Ahh , the museum guide still lives in me . ı wasn't caustic or sarcastic enough to ask how many stone bridges did he see from one horizon to the other .
In the past democracy meant 50%+1 of whoever's eligible to vote, ie excluding people like women, slaves, ethnic minorities, colonial peoples, people without property.
So it's an improvement.
Countryside has majority of voters.
r16 no doubt has interesting things to say but can someone translate it for me?
The majority of voters. Not the majority of the population. Obama was elected by about 22% of all Americans. That makes it even harder to respect the views of minorities.
This is one of the main reasons why modern liberal democracy also enshrines limited government. In the US, this is done via a Constitution which protects certain inalienable rights, a bicameral system which gives small states disproportionate ability to block popular proposals and a system whereby local government, rather than central government, has the greatest influence in people's day-to-day interactions with the State.
Tahuti
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Even less if you only count the Electoral College.
That phrase, eww.
Separation of powers and/or checks and balances, please.
"Limited government" doesn't describe anything. It's a purely polemical phrase.
Yes, it does. All of the separation of powers in the world does nothing if the government is able to reclaim the powers delegated to the other bodies. Checks and balances mean nothing if the government is free to abolish them. Limited government means that there is something marking out what the government can and can't do, and it's more complicated than you make out. For example, in a democracy, it includes a free press. After all, how can we dismiss an unjust government if it can cover up what it does?
It's kinda implied that the government cannot do that, at least legally.
I mean, it's like me using the phrase "limited construction" because "all the health and safety regulations do nothing if no one follows them"
Or "limited healthcare" with references to people not following the Hippocratic Oath.
Limited to what? By what?
The phrase is so broad and abused as to be meaningless.
Tahuti
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The Egyptian revolution happenned despite a generally unfree press. Idem dito for the French revolution. Press freedom is overrated, since its primary beneficinaries are those that love to put sensationalist stories. Market forces dictate that publishers will not publish what people should know, but what people want to hear. This even pervades well into newspapers that are considered "intellectual".
This doesn't mean press freedom should be abolished wholesale. Press freedom is a microscopic part within freedom of expression, which is highly important.
Limited in order to prevent the creation of certain kinds of laws government should not make. Like abolishing freedom of expression.
Yeah? How long did they last?
Press freedom is a tricky thing, but you do need it if you ever hope to create any kind of lasting liberal democracy (note the emphasis on lasting). It's not like unfree press doesn't put out sensationalist stories; bread and circuses, and all that.
Press freedom is a hugely important part of freedom of expression. It's essentially the freedom to express in an organised fashion. Freedom of expression sans press freedom is kinda like workplace protections without organised labour. (I understand you are not calling for press freedom to be abolished, but I don't think it's overrated like you said)
That's called "safeguard for fundamental rights" (I'm sure there's a less unwieldly phrase but it's 7:30am and I haven't slept)
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