Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

strategyonly said:
Not me, infact i want more intrusive barbarians like in RI, they come fast and furious within 30 turns.

btw who made the NEW option for buildings?? If you think about it, at Epic level you will get the techs alot faster which means all you are doing here is having a TON more buildings in the queue that has a TON more turns times now. Or am i missing something?
Click to expand...

SGT Slick and I have long had a deep disagreement (though we both recognize neither side is 'right' - it's just a preference issue) about building build times.

I stand on the side of believing that cities should be able to get on top of and stay on top of their build queues, able to each build the vast majority of the buildings it unlocks and still have some build time left over for things like putting production into units, research, gold etc...

HIS view, however is that cities should never be able to keep up with the tech progress, making each building selection critical to the strategic city specialization the player wishes that city to focus on. In his outlook, this makes the build selections more strategically important.

I see his point but from my way of seeing it, it just means many buildings become moot and useless to the mod as they will never be 'critical' enough to build. I furthermore feel that it impedes the ability for the game to provide a platform for frequent strategic warfare as it stifles the development of units.

Two equally valid outlooks and approaches. Two differing preferences. This warranted the development of his gameoption, Upscaled Building costs etc...

I'm the last person to advise this as I haven't done so for any of my options yet, but I'm starting to feel that we should really write up more detailed 'guides' to each of the game options. This Upscaled option could certainly use a more in-depth description of its intent.

On a positive note, the fact that you expressed the very feedback you did strongly suggests that the option is working exactly as he intended which is pretty cool imo. It also suggests that it could be beneficial to enable an option that balances the tech vs build speeds in the opposite direction. Tech times should stay constant so as to not breach the main date to tech balance ratio (assuming we ever get THAT on track properly) but the build speeds can certainly vary based on game options to create differing valid game experiences.

As for barbs... I've learned to enjoy them somewhat - but when I came to C2C I had been playing the No Barbarians option ever since the second game I played of CivIV. They always just irritated me. The barbs in C2C strike a nice balance of being a bit of a strategic nuisance but not an overwhelming problem. I can certainly see how getting the Raging Barbs option to enhance them up to the original Vanilla level of 'overwhelming problem' that they used to represent there could be enjoyable for some players. Again... options are about enabling players to have their game preferences as they wish them to be. When I discovered the first few versions of C2C I would certainly have appreciated the No Barbs game option but I also believe that missing out on the hunting is not an option here. And I've come to enjoy the 'occasional' Neanderthal strategic quandary for the hunting units in the field.
 
alberts2 said:
I can turn the No Barbarians into a pure No Barbarians option that still has the animals this is easy just a few changed lines of code. If no one says don't do this i add it to the svn.

We can also add additional spawns only for the raging barbarians option using a Has expression in the SpawnCondition tag.
Click to expand...



I did some testing.
It works, if the No Barbarians is turned on you have no Barbarians but you still have all the animals.
Can i commit this to the svn?

I noticed that there are only additional spawns for Neandertals we could add some more for later units once at least one player has the requied tech(this needs a bit dll work) or if the Raging Barbarians option is turned on.
 
Barbarian spawns still use the original spawn system from BtS. It was only animals and Neanderthals which use the C2C system because the BtS system stops spawning animals once barbarians start spawning and does not spawn anything from the start of the game.

The current spawn system does not have a tech element. If it had one eg x players know tech A, then we could do all sorts of stuff eg implement Platyping's "Pesky Barbarians" with it. Also the bandits and pirates mod MrAzure and I were talking about.

Add it to the SVN and we can all check it out.
 
Turns out the C2C spawn system already has a tech element.
It is possible using the SpawnCondition tag.
Code: 
            <SpawnCondition>
                <And>
                    <Has>
                        <GOMType>GOM_OPTION</GOMType>
                        <ID>GAMEOPTION_RAGING_BARBARIANS</ID>
                    </Has>
                    <IntegrateOr>
                        <RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
                        <GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_GAME</GameObjectType>
                        <Has>
                            <GOMType>GOM_TECH</GOMType>
                            <ID>TECH_NAVAL_WARFARE</ID>
                        </Has>
                    </IntegrateOr>
                </And>
            </SpawnCondition>
 
That is for a single Team.

Edit:

It should be possible for players/2 without modifications but this is untested.

Code: 
            <SpawnCondition>
                <And>
                    <Has>
                        <GOMType>GOM_OPTION</GOMType>
                        <ID>GAMEOPTION_RAGING_BARBARIANS</ID>
                    </Has>
                    <IntegrateOr>
                        <RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
                        <GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_GAME</GameObjectType>
                        <Greater>
                            <IntegrateAvg>
                                <RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
                                <GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_PLAYER</GameObjectType>
                                <IntegrateCount>
                                    <RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
                                    <GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_PLAYER</GameObjectType>
                                    <Has>
                                        <GOMType>GOM_TECH</GOMType>
                                        <ID>TECH_NAVAL_WARFARE</ID>                            
                                    </Has>
                                </IntegrateCount>
                            </IntegrateAvg>
                            <Constant>0</Constant>
                        </Greater>                       
                    </IntegrateOr>
                </And>
            </SpawnCondition>
 
So if I want normal (str 4) locust swarms to start appearing when half the players have bronze working do I use
Code: 
            <SpawnCondition>
                <And>
                    <IntegrateOr>
                        <RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
                        <GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_GAME</GameObjectType>
                        <Greater>
                            <IntegrateAvg>
                                <RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
                                <GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_PLAYER</GameObjectType>
                                <IntegrateCount>
                                    <RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
                                    <GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_PLAYER</GameObjectType>
                                    <Has>
                                        <GOMType>GOM_TECH</GOMType>
                                        <ID>TECH_BRONZE_WORKING</ID>                            
                                    </Has>
                                </IntegrateCount>
                            </IntegrateAvg>
                            <Constant>0</Constant>
                        </Greater>                       
                    </IntegrateOr>
                </And>
            </SpawnCondition>
 
It looks right but as i wrote earlier i didn't test it but later today i have time to test this.
The And is not neccesary if it has just one child.
 
I tested it and it did not work because i forgot one thing when you divide a integer it will be runded down e.g. 5/3 = 0.

I update the svn later with a extension to the AttributeType expression. It will be possible to get the number of Players or Teams from GAMEOBJECT_GAME.

Code: 
<IntegrateOr>
	<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
	<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_GAME</GameObjectType>
	<Greater>
		<IntegrateCount>
			<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
			<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_PLAYER</GameObjectType>
			<Has>
				<GOMType>GOM_TECH</GOMType>
				<ID>TECH_BRONZE_WORKING</ID>
			</Has>
		</IntegrateCount>
		<Div>
			<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_PLAYERS</AttributeType>
			<Constant>2</Constant>
		</Div>
	</Greater>                       
</IntegrateOr>
 
I found out that it was not working the by trying to use it.

This will be very useful once we have it working. We will be able to have bandit and pirate bases spawn on the map inside culture borders with events and super forts with their initial units then have them spawn reinforcements every now and then via the spawn system.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
This will be very useful once we have it working. We will be able to have bandit and pirate bases spawn on the map inside culture borders with events and super forts with their initial units then have them spawn reinforcements every now and then via the spawn system.
Click to expand...

Now this is what i wanted for years now, thx guys ;)
 
Just want to share this with the C2C team, in AND we've reverted the change that makes the main city tile always have control over the surrounding 8 tiles. Even when you settle a new city. This change alone has elevated Culture's importance near vanilla Civ IV levels. And it's a Very Great and Refreshing change that has allowed Culture to reclaim it's previous levels of importance in gameplay.

C2C has too long suppressed culture to trivial levels impo. And just this simple reverting makes gameplay that much more challenging.

Maybe C2C should consider this change too?

JosEPh
 
The question is why was it necessary to do in the first place? It was obviously done as a solution to a problem and reverting it will mean that the problem will reoccur, so what was the problem and can it be fixed another way?
 
The min 8 Tiles around a city where part of the GAMEOPTION_FIXED_BORDERS this option was removed in AND SVN641 and since then you have always control over those 8 Tiles around a city.
 
So was it to prevent the "Claim Territory" action adjacent to an enemy city? (I think that was the best reason I could come up with when I tried once...:crazyeye:)
 
I looked through the code and you cannot execute the "Claim Territory" mission at a plot adjacent to a city.
 
Can you please give workers the ability to build Shaft Mines over existing mines after Explosives. Currently they can destroy the mine by building something else first, or get a unit to pillage it, then build the Shaft Mine. That seems to me to prove that they should be able to just get in and upgrade it. As for waiting for the auto-upgrade, it takes 100 turns (on Marathon) as I'm sure you know.
 
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