What if a strong Byzantine Empire survived to the 20th century?

First, theres a big difference between the terms Greek and Hellinistic. The Byzantine Empire was not Greek, nor were the Greeks "all over the place", and even less they are widespread today on that territory (as to the Orthodox "Greeks" in Alexandria, you must be refering to the Copts, which are something entirely different). That claim must have its source in the stories of your ancestors, as you say. Since you already mention them, i can tell you that my ancestors believed in vampires and that King Marko (local medieval ruler) indeed drank 10 barrels of wine for a meal. Point is - how credible are oral sources? The least.
Certainly they are more authentic and have more soul than the factographic evidence from books, but naturally modern history doesnt account them much in research.
Byzantine culture was not greek culture. Any theories in that direction are basically raping the cultures of dozens of other ethnicities that lived within that entity called Byzantium.

Second, its crazy to think that the Byzantine Empire would have lasted until 20th century. It didnt have a unifying concept (except Rome, which wasnt that strong even then, and much less in the following period or even XIX century when the concept of nationalism developed.

Actually, I'd say the concept of nationalism developed quite along time before the "classic concept" of 19th century developed; the assorted greek states certianlyl has strong nationalistic sentiments, and more over, after the reign of caracalla, every free man would hail himself as a Roman citizen, before thier ethinicty; because Rome had long ceased to be a city state governed by a single people, rulein gover every other type of people in thier empire, but a hoge-podge of ethinicties all rolle dup into a single state, where, eventually a person of any ethinic background could achieve full citizenship; the same as how a modern nation works... or at least how it works in large and ethnically diverse nations (eg; United States, Canada, United Kingdom, France, amoung many various other examples)

of course thats all beside the point for the most part, as by the time of the 1th century, because byzantium itself had long fallen, the concept of the Roman nation had fallen as well, and so nationalistic pride reverted to ethnic pride, and the concept of ehtinic nations took hold

Xen, you should read your sociology more, rather than so much history.
Nationalism as a concept doesnt focus on a state where ethnicities are lumped together (as in the case of Byzantium, Rome, USA etc), but completely the opposite where a nation is supposed to constitute a single state, and that is how the idea of nation-states was developed. Prior to XIX century there were no nation-states and all the countries paid allegience to the monarch/ruling elite.

I have some comments to add on your little debate about the extent to which Byzantium was Romanized.
In the first centuries of the Eastern Roman Empire the Roman concept was prevailing. It was enforced throughout the whole Roman Empire, in the hopes that it could hold it together. And to some extent it did for quite some time. The privilege to be a Roman citizen was more important than the ethnical origin in many parts of the Empire.
Later, when the Empire split up, the same tactics continued to be practiced, since young Byzantium was still diverse.
However, the effect was rather different in the different parts of the Empire. Peoples with stronger cultures retained their old culture within a functional Roman society (Greece, Judea, Syria, Egypt) while those who were more culturally submissive were effectively Romanized, both linguistically and culturally over time. Such was the case with Macedonia, Illyria, Daccia, Dardania, Anadolia, Painoia, Thrace etc. Latin was still the most widespread and official language of the Empire until about the VII century. But ironically, there were never true Romans in the Byzantine Empire, so the ruling classes slowly started replacing the Latin with the more dominant among them and already developed Greek. Also, this gradual abandonment of the Roman ideal coincided with the developing antagonism with the West and the eventual realization that the East had really little to do with the Western Latin. However, the legacy of Rome was one prize hard to give up from, so they continued naming themselves as “Romans”.
At this point the Roman culture started losing its grip as the dominant constitutional element of Byzantine culture, and was slowly replaced by Greek. (So, in 1025, the dominant culture was indeed Greek.)
But let’s get back to those cultures where Romanization was fierce. If you see what happened to those areas, you’d conclude that they either developed as separate nations with a strong Roman influence in their present languages (Albania, Romania), or were replaced by Slavic tribes, that settled there and either assimilated their weak (pseudo-Roman) culture or destroyed it. As a result today, in these nations (Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria, Macedonia), there are no Roman linguistic influences.
However, with time the Slavs also integrated in the Byzantine culture, adopted it, and took it to new heights.
In conclusion, Romanization of Byzantium was a process which took place when the true Romans conquered the territories, continued to the climax somewhere near the split of the Empire, and then slowly the primate of Byzantine culture was taken over by the Greeks, which is not to say that Greek culture was in fact Byzantine.

I think one of the most major influences a longer lasting Byzantine empire would have on the world would be on Russia.

After converting the Orthodoxy the early Russian people and rulers looked up to The Byzantine empire and Constantinople with great respect and reverence.

What I'm getting at here is that i don't think there would have been a major Communist movement in Russia (or at least not as major a the one that happened) because they would be looking to be more like the Byzantines.

Now I'm not saying the Russians would be all Byzantine-Like all the time, because Peter The Great, and Catherine The Great were extremely interested in westernizing the fledgling empire, but i do think that modern Russia would have turned out differently with a continuing influence by the Byzantines who they truly revered.

The Byzantine Empire never dies, but a nearly 10-year bump is still impressive

Welcome to the forums, by the way

Yeah this is indeed impressive

oh dear , yet another post that squarely aims to "imperial ambitions" of this Modern Turkey . Failed from a Sunni Muslim aspect - this neo-Ottoman thing- we are now supposed to moderate Putin and his folk and the entire Russian bunch of whatever stripes ? As neo-Byzantines to boot ?

had there been no 1453 , the Commies would have been in "Istanbul" still , considering there would have been no reason to like the Greeks in the 18-19th Centuries and all they would have seen from the West would have been the wrong side of the rifle . As such they would wellcome it all . Religiousity of the Greeks didn't stop them from embracing Communism for their bloody Civil War and according to the theories of 60s or something Makarios in Cyprus was a Commie Archbishop and doing "allright" without any mishaps ...

the projections for the future of this new Turkey concentrated for a "very long" time on the "realisation" of ethnic origins -and not for this Muslim Greek thing so much loved by CFC history dudes . The Little Imperialist aka the Foreign Minister is or at least was so popular in Greece for his deep strategic vision -which is known in the West to contain spectacular discussions of history , even if the Little Imperialist might not be exactly aware of what he was peddling in the deal making that took place with the Bushists of 2000s. The newly elites belief towards to that end was the unmasking of the Closet Jews , supposed masters of the Old Republic , maybe a million , maybe two , to be isolated into a corner so that they could never organize an election winning challenge -or pose any similar risk to the health and wealth of the new order . The "West" saw the Closet bunch only as the first step . Dissatisfaction and anguish that was sure to follow with a full application of the ways of the newly elites was to be the means that dear Missionaries were to fall on us ... Not a Turk and can not bring himself to be some neo something ? Why not try Jesus Christ ? Fundamentalism is so prevalent in the world .

as such we were bombarded with revelations that we Turks didn't own Turkey , were not even Turks and did nothing in history , considering the entire Turkish history was written in 1940s -in awe of the world conquering Adolf Hitler . Many of the newly elites were content to join this chorus in the perception that one of these days Syria would fall , to be followed by the parts of Iraq where El Kaide is now running around in daylight . With an open-doors-and-more policy to N.Iraq assured -only in the eyes of a bunch of dangalaks who wrote columns and appeared on TV debates- we were soon to be country of 100 million plus . The Turkish Nation State -obviously- could not cope . But then there are academicians , got-to-be-smart people whom smily Americans and all kinds of Westerners talk to . They knew the said neo-Ottoman stuff would turn millions away all around the globe , they knew new Turkey needed some strategic leverage to be allowed to live - and that decision to be taken in the wisdomful halls of the US Congress and Senate .

sure , a repeat of the Cold War , being useful against Russia . There are of course 100 000 Turkish-Russian marriages but that can't be enough . There should be deeper links ; yet since the horse riding Central Asian bandits are to be so out in Turkey no such link is applicable ... Soooooo , there you go : Ethnical similarities for the Black Sea types ; seperatist MPs already refer Emigrees from Bulgaria as Bulgars . Boşnaks hate it whenever they are named as "not Turks" but some other ethnicity that lives in Turkey . Had once taken Turk/Ottoman as a "higher" identity , replaced it with Turk without any problems and it's just two decades that thousands and thousands of them were killed in cold blood for being -you know - "Turks" ... Academia forgets such stuff real quick when smily Americans are around .

One such academic , a member of the Hülya Koçyiğit and just a few are not traitors committee , was very vocal in naming the village the PM was born in its once Greek name . Russians like Ancient Greeks , right ? Another member of the said committee even declared once the aims were realised , even the name of the Ottomans would no longer be used and stuff -as the Lebanese didn't like it . Really , ı swear to God . As for ethnicity and whether it would make headway , the one single reason it's not openly discussed is a trait that's endemic to Black Sea types . And they won't be insulted at all or something when ı say their brains don't work after noon ... The fear is they would have lunch and figure out that they are to be declared anything but Turkish and do something ; embrassing this country for the years to come ...

addition of a sort : Last night there was a TV Debate where people sure enough on top it . One started that we should support arms to the Türkmen of Syria , 'cause you know there is this incredibly foolish notion that it will be proven that this country supports El Kaide or something and yet if you don't support them they come and bomb you . It's now racial solidarity and stuff so that it won't be noticed as if it's not America who decides when it will be seen ... All justifiable after all when the Army has returned El Kaide fire , everything is proven to be wrong , right ?

the Voice of the Counter-Revolution countered , now those people are Turks of Syria . Mind you , she was the Marmara Region chief of the Hülya Koçyiğit and just a few are not traitors committee , telling Turks that actually there was nothing Turkish anywhere and anytime in the world . After that they got into this argument over who would win a war between Turkey and Iran . The Voice of the Counter-Revolution follows American line and gives nuclear capability to them . The other guy says Iran fought 8 years with our glorious sunnier Sunni brothers in Iraq in Saddam's time , they would be scared like hell .

what follows is a pic from 2012 and shows why America got cold feet in sending in F-22s to kick some MiG backside ...





shows an Iranian F-5 with Goddamned dinky toys of tiptanks ; showed intent of getting in . Don't Google it , might be bugged like hell the results you might find ...

Excellent. All is going according to plan

(btw not sure what you meant about your foreign minister, but he is seen as a madman here due to his plans in his published book of a new-ottoman empire or related sphere of influence).

Anyway, not much news about Turkey these days, even on yahoo news. Not sure what to make of that.

what pity your Economic Crisis knocked you somewhat so that you weren't there for the Balkan War III in 2012-13 .

regarding the Little Imperialists aka the FM , sir , are you calling Turkish Media a bunch of liars ? If they tell you something is that way , it's that way ...

Bumped after over 560 years.

============================

This battle, I suppose, was the last attempt of saving the Byzantine Empire - just over 8 years before the fall of Constantinople:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Varna

It was part of a larger crusade, and the final battle of that crusade:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_of_Varna

There is a hypothesis (by historian Manuel da Silva Rosa) that king Vladislav in fact survived the battle, and became father of a certain famous person:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher_Columbus#Polish_hypothesis

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...umbus-Polish-Portuguese-claim-historians.html

Historian Manuel da Silva Rosa presented that hypothesis in this book: http://colombo.bz/english/first_note.htm

stupid Turks , can not behead a lonely Pole .

or maybe ı shouldn't follow temptations .

r16 said:

stupid Turks , can not behead a lonely Pole .

or maybe ı shouldn't follow temptations .

Click to expand...

Poland will remove kebab.

not , considering THK F-15E squadrons keep up to date with the exact locations of Polish Cavalry formations .

Contemporary chronicler Jan Długosz (born 1415, died 1480) wrote this about King Vladislav's fate after the battle of Varna:

"(...) When in Hungary and in Poland in the month of December 1444 a rumor about the death of King Vladislav first appeared, people for a long time did not believe it and hope that it was untrue remained in their hearts. But when by the end of December some of Polish troops, who survived the battle, returned to Poland and told about everything what happened there, then people finally believed that news of the misfortune could indeed be true, and great sorrow seized everybody's minds. (...) But there still was one consolation, namely that there were still rumors saying that king Vladislav in fact survived, and many important people were assuring in their letters, that the King had been seen alive in Constantinople, in Venice, in Italy, in Transylvania, and even in Albania and in the Serbian Despotate. The more desired were such news, the more easily people believed them. Each time when fresh news about king Vladislav saying that he had been seen somewhere and that he was alive reached Cracow, the whole city was fulfilled with joy, the bells were tolling and candles were lighted in each house. The bravery and great steadfastness of the king was well known, which is why nobody wanted to accept, that he could be killed in combat. (...)"

The body of king Vladislav was never found. There were no surviving witnesses of the moment of his alleged death as well.

The Turks never sent the body (or at least just the head) back to Hungary / Poland, so it is possible, that they did not have it indeed.

==========================================

The last time Vladislav was seen by surviving veterans of the battle of Varna, was by the end of that battle, when he charged the command post of Sultan Murad II, leading a reserve of 500 selected knights, in what was the last attempt to steal the Ottomans their victory by killing Murad II:



Here a 19th century painting by Jan Matejko showing that last charge:



Chancellor Zbigniew Oleśnicki wrote after the battle of Varna:

"If only had I sent a dozen or so thousand more reinforcements to the King, the Turks would have been crushed."

If the Byzantine Empire survived, there would be less necroposting on this board.

there is an undeniable passion for history as it will be readily noticiable from from the posts that famously dwell on Polish achievements ; and ı , the regular off-topic guy , have to assume they are as relevant as any of my own in some undisclosed way . So theorizing in so many ways :

maybe this is an inqury on whether the Topkapı Museum has the armour uncatalogued in some cellar . ı wouldn't have a right to know ; was just a guide in some smaller thing in a somewhat rural city and that starting on exactly 4th of February 2004 - yeah , a decade ago .

but then the Wikipedia page would be somewhat offensive to link -with an account of the brave King chasing the coward Sultan into his mass of troops . Since we Turks are not European or something , that could limit the energy expended by real museum people on an answer to that inquiry .

maybe it's the germ of a serious discussion that Poland might have saved Byzantium , hence East Rome , hence Rome , hence Europe , hence the entire Human Legacy , just like Sobieski saved Vienna and all . Why not ? 1440s were a mess for the Ottomans , the Sultan incredibly leaving the throne to be succeeded by a kid . We certainly learn nothing about this period in history classes apart from Mehmed II's famous order to his father , Murat II . If Mehmed was the Sultan , Murat was ordered to take command of Mehmed's Army ; if it was Murat who was the Sultan , he was obviously expected to fight for his realm . A defeat in such dire straits could have spelled the doom of the Ottomans . My only problem with that ı had not even heard of Polish involvement in Varna until this thread . It's always Hunyadi Yanos this and Hunyadi Yanos that ; it was so irritating to read his name again and again in some text-book some 30 years ago . ı still remember !

maybe it's Hunyadi Yanos that explains the King's disappearance ; in that maybe he was too successful and the demise of the Ottomans would have cleared Hungarians for expansion in other directions and the good King forfeited honour to save Poland , hoping a defeat would end in a Turkish pursuit that would get Yanos ... Undigestable ? For the good King certainly ... He wouldn't stand sitting on his throne again , would give the good clothes to fight and die like a common soldier , alas it would be his stuntman who gets to get beheaded . We Turks are some savages , we can't differentiate between White people at all . Whomever has knights around him dying to protect him must be the King .

then the fatherhood stuff . ı don't know what's so important about Columbus -the discoverer who had no idea where he was going . With Greeks and later Muslims having spend years to measure the size of the planet and Columbus ignoring the findings which were -uhmm- readily available , maybe because he felt he couldn't cross the Pasific -which of course was unknown at the time- and as such sold the dreams of China for an actual landing in Micronesia or Phillipinnes if lucky . All members of CFC , a moment of silence for Zheng He .

returning to Columbus , ı know it from the Sopranos that Columbus is big for the Italians -which might then extend to all Catholics . Maybe it's something arcane that brings up the discussion , considering the New Rome in the Western Hemisphere trumps anything in the East , the Eastern Rome on the shores of Bosphorus , or the so called Third in Moscow ...

even maybe a strict note of warning to whomever that should be concerned with the results of Varna . Turks , the scum of the Earth and God's curse on otherwise good Christians who stray , are sure to keep their villainery until they all go to Hell . Allow me to say that's strictly unnecessary : Americans -for starters- are aware of the size of the department for frying Americans .

so , with even Zheng He in , does Kebab still stand ?

Varna was far too late to save the empire. You would really need to diverge before Andronikos I, in my opinion, for the empire to have a serious chance.

No way, Orthodox is surrounded by Catholics and Sunnis, that is far beyond savable condition.

If converted to Catholics, it is equal to Latin Empire; Sunnis Ottoman Empire.