Naval Battles & Zone of Control

Afforess

Afforess

The White Wizard
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
12,239
Location
Austin, Texas
I've been playing on an archipelago map and been a bit frustrated with naval battles. Even with a large navy, I can not guard every coastal or ocean tile. Enemy ships can just glide through the gap, drop off some units, and leave again, despite passing multiple powerful ships I own.

I am familiar this is somewhat accurate, smugglers and stealth were used to bypass powerful armada's throughout history. But it's not the de-facto state of naval warfare. I'd guess most of the time, these tactics failed and a naval battle ensued.

One way to solve this would to give ships an oceanic zone of control. This is similar to how manned forts work - 1 tile around the ship would be impassible in war, unless you destroyed the ship. Of course, I think giving this zone of control power to all ships would be unbalancing. I'm thinking a set of promotions to grant it instead would be best. In addition, certain units should have the ability to ignore this zone of control (like privateers).

In addition, to prevent abuse of this promotion by giving it to a weak unit, and defending it with several strong naval units...any naval unit with Zone of Control is automatically at the top of a stack of units. If multiple units have ZoC, then the strongest, then next strongest, etc. So in a scenario where you have a fleet of 10 ships, 3 of which have ZoC, the 3 ships are at the top, and I only have to defeat those 3, and then can safely move past.

Promotions:

Naval Tactics
  • Grants 1 tile zone of control radius for sea tiles
  • Unlocked at Naval Cannon

Naval Stealth
  • Can ignore zone of control
  • Unlocked at Navigation

Thoughts? This is just a concept right now, I have not implemented it.
 
Afforess said:
I've been playing on an archipelago map and been a bit frustrated with naval battles. Even with a large navy, I can not guard every coastal or ocean tile. Enemy ships can just glide through the gap, drop off some units, and leave again, despite passing multiple powerful ships I own.

I am familiar this is somewhat accurate, smugglers and stealth were used to bypass powerful armada's throughout history. But it's not the de-facto state of naval warfare. I'd guess most of the time, these tactics failed and a naval battle ensued.

One way to solve this would to give ships an oceanic zone of control. This is similar to how manned forts work - 1 tile around the ship would be impassible in war, unless you destroyed the ship. Of course, I think giving this zone of control power to all ships would be unbalancing. I'm thinking a set of promotions to grant it instead would be best. In addition, certain units should have the ability to ignore this zone of control (like privateers).

In addition, to prevent abuse of this promotion by giving it to a weak unit, and defending it with several strong naval units...any naval unit with Zone of Control is automatically at the top of a stack of units. If multiple units have ZoC, then the strongest, then next strongest, etc. So in a scenario where you have a fleet of 10 ships, 3 of which have ZoC, the 3 ships are at the top, and I only have to defeat those 3, and then can safely move past.

Promotions:

Naval Tactics I
  • Grants 1 tile zone of control radius for sea tiles
  • Unlocked at Naval Warfare

Naval Tactics II
  • Grants 2 tile zone of control radius for sea tiles
  • -1 Movement speed
  • Unlocked at Naval Cannon

Naval Tactics III
  • Grants 3 tile zone of control radius for sea tiles
  • -2 Movement speed
  • Unlocked at Radio

Naval Stealth
  • Can ignore zone of control
  • -10% combat strength
  • Unlocked at Navigation

Thoughts? This is just a concept right now, I have not implemented it.
Click to expand...

I like it! The only doubt I have is that 3 tiles ZoC radius looks really big to me.
Vokarya, what's your opinion?
And Afforess, while you're looking at ZoC, I'm not 100% sure but I think I've built a Moat from time to time and I've seen that it blocks enemy units and your own units as well; I'm not sure if it's correct although it could work this way. What was even more strange is that Moat was also blocking surrounding water tiles. I'm not sure this was intended.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13195619 said:
I like it! The only doubt I have is that 3 tiles ZoC radius looks really big to me.
Click to expand...

It's not as big if you consider it only applies to oceans & not land, and it comes so late game. If it becomes a problem though, we could just disable that promotion.
45°38'N-13°47'E;13195619 said:
Vokarya, what's your opinion?
And Afforess, while you're looking at ZoC, I'm not 100% sure but I think I've built a Moat from time to time and I've seen that it blocks enemy units and your own units as well; I'm not sure if it's correct although it could work this way. What was even more strange is that Moat was also blocking surrounding water tiles. I'm not sure this was intended.
Click to expand...

I will definitely take a look at the existing ZoC and correct any issues in it. Moat should not influence coast.
 
Afforess said:
It's not as big if you consider it only applies to oceans & not land, and it comes so late game. If it becomes a problem though, we could just disable that promotion.
Click to expand...

Well, you're right about it affecting ocean tiles only. Do you think that moving that 3rd promotion to Radar which comes a bit later could work? By that time you also have planes that you can use to counter blockading ships. What do you think? If you prefer Radio, that's ok; we can change it later if we see it being too powerful.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13195627 said:
Well, you're right about it affecting ocean tiles only. Do you think that moving that 3rd promotion to Radar which comes a bit later could work? By that time you also have planes that you can use to counter blockading ships. What do you think? If you prefer Radio, that's ok; we can change it later if we see it being too powerful.
Click to expand...

Radar sounds fine. I was just trying to place them in the rightish eras. I am not set in any of the tech placements.
 
How do you kill the ship when the ZoC is larger than 1? If I understand how CivIV ZoCs work, you can't move from one controlled square to another controlled square. Therefore, you could not reach the ship which is exerting the zone of control...

Also, why would you want to give movement penalties?

If the ZoC radius can be only 1, then we'd only need the first of the promotions you listed , for ZoC enforcement - "KISS", right? That would still allow for considerable ocean coverage, having a ZoC ship every three squares. In that case your proposed Naval Stealth promotion might be unnecessary also. ?

In principle, I like the idea.

A.
 
aggri1 said:
How do you kill the ship when the ZoC is larger than 1? If I understand how CivIV ZoCs work, you can't move from one controlled square to another controlled square. Therefore, you could not reach the ship which is exerting the zone of control...

Also, why would you want to give movement penalties?

If the ZoC radius can be only 1, then we'd only need the first of the promotions you listed , for ZoC enforcement - "KISS", right? That would still allow for considerable ocean coverage, having a ZoC ship every three squares. In that case your proposed Naval Stealth promotion might be unnecessary also. ?

In principle, I like the idea.

A.
Click to expand...

Hm, that's a fair concern. I'm not sure. It might be too convoluted to try and make ZoC work for more than 1 tile. This is why I need sanity checks on my ideas.

Also I noticed bZoneOfControl already exists for promotions. I think I will try just with 1 promotion and 1 ZoC and see how it goes. Any suggestions for button art for the promotion?
 
I agree with the ZoC problem. I think by the logic of Zones of Control, you can't have more than 1 square radius without causing serious problems of being unable to kill the responsible unit. Furthermore, what happens if two Zones of Control overlap?

Unfortunately, this also feels to me like it's trying to re-write a lot of basic rules to bring about a particular situation. I see this as over-choreographing, and this always makes me incredibly uneasy. I'm not quite sure how navies are supposed to work in regular BTS, but I think the idea is if you want to protect your coasts, send your ships out to hunt down enemy ships in transit, not leave them near your coasts.

While this may seem "realistic" on a tactical level, I don't think the scale of the game supports things like this. Civilization is not a tactical game -- it's a strategic one.
 
Vokarya said:
I agree with the ZoC problem. I think by the logic of Zones of Control, you can't have more than 1 square radius without causing serious problems of being unable to kill the responsible unit. Furthermore, what happens if two Zones of Control overlap?
Click to expand...

Yep, you're right. Larger than 1 ZoC is a recipe for disaster. I've edited the post to reflect this.

I still think the basic idea can work. 1 tile zone of control would make naval combat more interesting. I am going to playtest this to determine if this actually works.
 
Maybe what's needed here isn't exactly Zone of Control but more Naval Intercept. I usually don't see air-on-air battles because I end games before that, but would something similar be a possibility?
 
This is a bit off the topic of boats, specifically, so feel free to ignore...

Another way to potentially ameliorate (heh, finally got to use that word!) the annoyance of naval invasions is through the construction of forts along the coastline, representing coastal castles and, later, bunkers and other fortifications. Since in AND forts have a ZoC, suitable placement of manned forts would prevent units from moving inland, if not from beaching.

The problem is that building a little fort stops construction of a more productive tile improvement, such as a mine. This is one of my biggest grievances with the Civ' improvement system. In the game Alpha Centauri, I could build a mine and a farm, for instance. I would like to be able to build a fort on top of a mine or a farm or a quarry, etc. In reality, a fort takes so little space that it shouldn't affect the productive capacity of the terrain it's on - and it certainly shouldn't prevent me from farming or mining that terrain entirely!

However, is it at all possible to have more than one terrain improvement on a tile in Civ? I am thinking of floodplains and farms, which suggest that it is...

If it is possible, perhaps such forts should cost more to build, such that they aren't spammed everywhere. The AI would probably also have to be told how to use them.

As it is, if I construct a good beach defense system, too many tiles suffer from wasted production.

Thoughts?
 
aggri1 said:
This is a bit off the topic of boats, specifically, so feel free to ignore...

Another way to potentially ameliorate (heh, finally got to use that word!) the annoyance of naval invasions is through the construction of forts along the coastline, representing coastal castles and, later, bunkers and other fortifications. Since in AND forts have a ZoC, suitable placement of manned forts would prevent units from moving inland, if not from beaching.

The problem is that building a little fort stops construction of a more productive tile improvement, such as a mine. This is one of my biggest grievances with the Civ' improvement system. In the game Alpha Centauri, I could build a mine and a farm, for instance. I would like to be able to build a fort on top of a mine or a farm or a quarry, etc. In reality, a fort takes so little space that it shouldn't affect the productive capacity of the terrain it's on - and it certainly shouldn't prevent me from farming or mining that terrain entirely!

However, is it at all possible to have more than one terrain improvement on a tile in Civ? I am thinking of floodplains and farms, which suggest that it is...

If it is possible, perhaps such forts should cost more to build, such that they aren't spammed everywhere. The AI would probably also have to be told how to use them.

As it is, if I construct a good beach defense system, too many tiles suffer from wasted production.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I like the idea. I think instead of allowing multiple improvements, we make forts not an improvement, but separate system entirely. That way we don't have to muck with the existing improvement system. We could create a variety of different fort structures.

The general idea for having coastal forts that are manned would be great and helpful to prevent coastal assaults.
 
Let's not do anything with forts, please. It's going to result in forts on every single AI coastal tile, which is just going to raise the complexity to a whole new level. This mod is complex enough as it is over regular BTS.
 
Can submarines have a built-in ability to ignore the Zone of Control? They can't drop off any military units anyway.


Also, I think naval combat could use more unit-counters, so you don't have to just build the best ship of the era while ignoring all others and still having just coinflip battles on the ocean. Really seems that - especially in the mid to late game - that there's like, two different combat ships that have a difference of just a few strength, and a few other very minor differences. Land based combat there's a counter to most every unit, but not naval it seems?
 
Rezca said:
Can submarines have a built-in ability to ignore the Zone of Control? They can't drop off any military units anyway.


Also, I think naval combat could use more unit-counters, so you don't have to just build the best ship of the era while ignoring all others and still having just coinflip battles on the ocean. Really seems that - especially in the mid to late game - that there's like, two different combat ships that have a difference of just a few strength, and a few other very minor differences. Land based combat there's a counter to most every unit, but not naval it seems?
Click to expand...

I did notice this, that strength seems to be the only factor that really matters.
 
Afforess said:
I did notice this, that strength seems to be the only factor that really matters.
Click to expand...

Some get a movement speed of like, just one more than their counterpart, and one can bombard cities while the other cant (Or gets more of a bombard bonus) but that's about it. In the Industrial and pre-Industrial, there's ONE unit that gets a +% bonus against another ship and it's the Fluyt I believe, and vs the Galleon. Destroyer-class units can intercept aircraft and see subs, but they're almost useless against their big brothers - merely because of Strength bonuses.

I would think it a bit better if there was a few ship types in each era, with one being more effective against the other, so that it encourages having mixed fleets instead of simply spamming the best one every era. :)
 
Rezca said:
I would think it a bit better if there was a few ship types in each era, with one being more effective against the other, so that it encourages having mixed fleets instead of simply spamming the best one every era. :)
Click to expand...

I agree in the sense that I too don't like the current "toin-coss" approach. However, is there any real-world justification for some ships being better against some classes than others? I generally would prefer to not have arbitrary bonuses which have no real justification.

Perhaps some sort of artificial Civ-wide limit on the number of the best units. I don't like those arbitrary limits though, so...

Perhaps to build the biggest ships one needs some special expensive shipyard, which one can only build a few times (like the National Wonder buildings Brewery, Cement Factory, etc...), and working in the same manner as the Shaolin Monk requires the Shaolin Monastery. That would restrict the rate at which one could produce these big ships, while allowing other cities to build other smaller ships, and it's reflective of the fact that to build huge ships one does really need certain infrastructure. But then there's another building involved...

OT: In fact, I'd love to see much more widespread infrastructure requirements. I always found it funny in Civ' that a newly founded village could immediately start producing a Tank, albeit slowly. I'd love to see mech' units require Power, for instance, and perhaps a factory. I understand that the AI does already understand some of these building requirements... (?)

I had an idea in relation to the original problem this thread posed, namely being able to send landing ships straight past waiting defending battleships. How about a significantly increased visibility range for ships? Then you would be more likely to see enemy navies earlier, before they got to your coast. It would be quite reasonable I think for newer faster ships to have extra inherent visibility range than ancient wooden canoes. Perhaps we could think of such a 'large' visibility range as a quasi-patrol function.

Vokarya said:
Let's not do anything with forts, please. It's going to result in forts on every single AI coastal tile, which is just going to raise the complexity to a whole new level. This mod is complex enough as it is over regular BTS.
Click to expand...

OK, fair enough. :)

A.
 
What might be interesting is to give some weaker units (like destroyers) a very high withdraw chance. It might be interesting to allow such units to attack and always be able to safely withdraw. Even though they can't win battles then, they could whittle the enemy down without fear of sinking.
 
IIRC, I have imported at least partially Multi Features from C2C which allows more features built on the same tile, but I also think we would see forts spanned everywhere. Plus, I don't actually see AI building always the stronger naval units. I had quite a variety of big battles on the sea with different ships starting from industrial era.
 
Afforess said:
What might be interesting is to give some weaker units (like destroyers) a very high withdraw chance. It might be interesting to allow such units to attack and always be able to safely withdraw. Even though they can't win battles then, they could whittle the enemy down without fear of sinking.
Click to expand...

That looks like a realistic idea to me
 
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