A huge ~630MB update. What did it contain?

I just went through this on another forum...a forum belonging to a publisher that is a solid Valve DRM customer so the moderators can't allow much anti-Steam commentary so it ended badly.

You like Steam. You aren't going to contribute anything to the conversation at hand other than that you like Steam, and in fact like it so much that the only thing you are going to comment on is that other people don't...not addressing in any way the reasons they don't as set forth in the thread.

Since your faith is unshakable and not really related to the topic at hand the conversation will likely get derailed into 'attacks on your faith'...eventually it gets heated, and another conversation about the real issues of what Steam does will fizzle to an end that satisfies the faithful because the issue at hand gets dropped, and maybe even the thread gets locked. It's a standard tactic employed ad nauseum by Steam faithful everywhere.

As I said to Rah...no fun at all, too repetitive.

Judojimmy said:

I guess I am glad I don't play multiplayer... I have not had problems with the mods either. I am neutral to the steam issues, are people really arguing about it? I think it is the way everything is headed, like it or not. No physical transaction, all electronic.

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While is is a very true statement, that doesn't mean we collectively want it to happen. We as gamers are pretty much having our hand forced.

We basically rent our games, are subject to retail prices, & suffer from poor customer service complete with moves such as this one.

This is pretty much the 2010's version of a Blockbuster location.

Timsup2nothin said:

You like Steam.

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Indeed.

You aren't going to contribute anything to the conversation at hand other than that you like Steam, and in fact like it so much that the only thing you are going to comment on is that other people don't...not addressing in any way the reasons they don't as set forth in the thread.

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Because this exact exchange has already occurred twice on this board. Have you forgotten? I see very little point raising an argument which I have already constructed, and as it obviously failed to convince you, I see even less of a point in doing so. Similarly, the arguments you have put forth have done little to change my position.

Since your faith is unshakable

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Again, I request that I'm left to form my own positions and arguments. It's not really fair to you when you have to make both your argument and mine, now is it?

and not really related to the topic at hand

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My profession of being partial to Steam has exactly as much to do with the topic as the various posts bemoaning it.

the conversation will likely get derailed into 'attacks on your faith'...eventually it gets heated, and another conversation about the real issues of what Steam does will fizzle to an end that satisfies the faithful because the issue at hand gets dropped, and maybe even the thread gets locked. It's a standard tactic employed ad nauseum by Steam faithful everywhere.

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And to be honest, I haven't the faintest clue what you speak of here. I mean, I understand what you say; it just makes very little sense to me.

As I said to Rah...no fun at all, too repetitive.

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I'm not fun enough?

Judojimmy said:

I think it is the way everything is headed, like it or not. No physical transaction, all electronic.

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That depends wheteher there are enough people willing to accept it - or simply don't care. If you don't like STEAM, then just say so, write one star reviews at Amazon and vote with you wallet: Don't buy STEAM titles! Don't cave in! Don't hand over the fifty or so bucks if you don't get full access and full ownership over the game you want to purchase! Show the companies that they are actually hurting themselves when they hurt the honest and paying customer!!! And this whole DRM-nonsense will be over faster than you might expect...

gps said:

That depends wheteher there are enough people willing to accept it - or simply don't care. If you don't like STEAM, then just say so, write one star reviews at Amazon and vote with you wallet: Don't buy STEAM titles! Don't cave in! Don't hand over the fifty or so bucks if you don't get full access and full ownership over the game you want to purchase! Show the companies that they are actually hurting themselves when they hurt the honest and paying customer!!! And this whole DRM-nonsense will be over faster than you might expect...

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Good work. Add to this that if you really want a game that has Steam DRM, most of them can be bought somewhere else so your money doesn't go directly to Valve (I skip Steam exclusives). Other digital download sources are also available. When I am forced to interact with Steam to get something they had no hand in making I let the developer, the publisher, and the retailer of the product know that I do not appreciate it by e-mail bombardment. And I will never buy a Valve product.

Timsup2nothin said:

Add to this that if you really want a game that has Steam DRM, most of them can be bought somewhere else so your money doesn't go directly to Valve (I skip Steam exclusives).

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But that's already what I would call "caving in"...
Seriously - and I know from my own younger days how hard this can be if you really want that game - if it's STEAM: Don't buy it. Ever. Don't pirate it. Ever. Don't play it, don't talk about it, don't promote it, don't regard it with envy. Ignore it. Caving in means STEAM has already won, you accepted their terms, you raised their sales figures, you have proven them right. Caving in means the next game you so desperately want will once again be on STEAM.
I only once got weak for Civ V because it was so damned cheap (5 EUR for Vanilla, 2,50 EUR for G&K and about 7 or 8 Pounds for BNW) and just to see whether it's really as bad as many people say - which is hardly a reason for big regrets. But on the other hand (and although they hardly made any money in this deal) I helped to make this mediocre caricature of the Civ games of old the most successfull Civ game ever and also one of the best selling STEAM titles. And I am really embarassed for that.

covok48 said:

suffer from poor customer service complete with moves such as this one.

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How is this poor customer service from Steam's part? They're automatically updating your game to the latest version. It's not their fault that the latest version removes a feature, or that 2K/Firaxis didn't put the old version available as an alternative (which Steam supports).

I'm no Steam loyalist, it has a bunch of problems and I frequently buy games through other services, but blaming Steam for a mistake made by 2K/Firaxis doesn't make sense.

gps said:

But that's already what I would call "caving in"...
Seriously - and I know from my own younger days how hard this can be if you really want that game - if it's STEAM: Don't buy it. Ever. Don't pirate it. Ever. Don't play it, don't talk about it, don't promote it, don't regard it with envy. Ignore it. Caving in means STEAM has already won, you accepted their terms, you raised their sales figures, you have proven them right. Caving in means the next game you so desperately want will once again be on STEAM.
I only once got weak for Civ V because it was so damned cheap (5 EUR for Vanilla, 2,50 EUR for G&K and about 7 or 8 Pounds for BNW) and just to see whether it's really as bad as many people say - which is hardly a reason for big regrets. But on the other hand (and although they hardly made any money in this deal) I helped to make this mediocre caricature of the Civ games of old the most successfull Civ game ever and also one of the best selling STEAM titles. And I am really embarassed for that.

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I'm with you, for the most part. The problem is that if you follow 'I won't buy game xyz in the store because it has Steam DRM' you hurt sales in the store just as much as you make a statement about Steam. I do not buy through Steam, ever, but I do buy in stores and if it has Steam DRM I deal with it as I said before...I complain to everyone involved so they know I bought despite Valve, not because of them.

I also send e-mails to developers and publishers any time a game catches my interest but turns out to be a Steam exclusive to let them know I'm interested but will never buy through Steam.

And of course I will not buy Valve games, ever, because I hope they fold.

MaXimillionZero said:

How is this poor customer service from Steam's part? They're automatically updating your game to the latest version. It's not their fault that the latest version removes a feature, or that 2K/Firaxis didn't put the old version available as an alternative (which Steam supports).

I'm no Steam loyalist, it has a bunch of problems and I frequently buy games through other services, but blaming Steam for a mistake made by 2K/Firaxis doesn't make sense.

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This. I don't understand why all are blaming Steam for 2K/Firaxis' faults...

Another thing I have noticed about the Steam faithful...they like to sidetrack threads by going back to the same point over and over again even if it has already been responded to in the thread.

From page 1:
"The ability of VALVe apologists to lay the blame for everything bad at the feet of publishers, while practically giving credit for the games they publish to VALVe is outright hilarious. VALVe is a DRM maker, first and foremost. They deserve nothing but scorn."

Specifically, in this instance it is almost beyond questioning that the patch code was predominantly provided by Valve, since it is unlikely that 2k would assign anyone to recreate Steamworks from scratch. It is no surprise that in the process Valve over wrote any way to play MP games other than through Valve, because that is what they want; the elimination of choice.

MaXimillionZero said:

It's not their fault that the latest version removes a feature, or that 2K/Firaxis didn't put the old version available as an alternative (which Steam supports).

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Let's just say it's still totally unclear who made the call to remove that feature. This could as much be blamed on STEAM as it could be on Firaxis. What if STEAM clearly said, "OK, we support to move the game from Gamespy to STEAM-multiplayer, but only if direct-IP support is removed"? For me this is not totally out of the picture. STEAM clearly has a controll-paranoia conflicting with direct connections circumventing STEAM surveillance. I don't see any comparable plausible scheme or agenda on Firaxis' side...

Timsup2nothin said:

The problem is that if you follow 'I won't buy game xyz in the store because it has Steam DRM' you hurt sales in the store just as much as you make a statement about Steam.

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Well, my first priority is to not hurt myself (which wasting time and money on STEAM protected stuff quite obviously does). Concerns about the local stores are secondary to that. Usually I try to support them by buying STEAM-free games instead.

gps said:

Well, my first priority is to not hurt myself (which wasting time and money on STEAM protected stuff quite obviously does). Concerns about the local stores are secondary to that. Usually I try to support them by buying STEAM-free games instead.

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[potentially ban worthy response not given]

Tim, I respect you as a poster, I really do. But don't you think that this:

Timsup2nothin said:

I just went through this on another forum...a forum belonging to a publisher that is a solid Valve DRM customer so the moderators can't allow much anti-Steam commentary so it ended badly.

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happens because you generally post in a somewhat unpleasant and borderline inflammatory way when speaking about this topic?

Another thing I have noticed about the Steam faithful...they like to sidetrack threads by going back to the same point over and over again even if it has already been responded to in the thread.

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No fun at all. As evidenced, the loyalist comes along, ignores the entire topic, and writes off all complaints as just 'people being anti Steam'.

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Now, I'm obviously no moderator, and you're not breaking any rules as far as I know, but it's really not a pleasure to engage you when you create such generalizations as in the above examples. I would go so far as to say your posts here constitute nothing more than pure ad hominems which do nothing more to further any debate other than inflaming emotions.

Call this "changing the topic" if you wish. I'm making no argument about the merits of Steam here, nor am I trying to. That fight has been drawn out over the course of several threads. What I am doing, is suggesting that you could possibly be a bit more... amicable when discussing the topic. Of course, you're in no way obligated to listen to me. You make intelligent and entertaining posts when not on the topic of Steam, but when we turn our attention to it, your posts turn positively venomous, about the program itself (which I understand), but also about it's defenders and users, which is not at all related to the topic at hand and really does nothing to foster a environment which encourages a healthy debate. On the other hand, it certainly does a whole lot to make a thread devolve into nothing more than petty insults and general immaturity, on both sides.

Food for thought.

The Diocletian said:

Food for thought.

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Fairly presented.

Hi all, thanks for providing feedback on Direct IP multiplayer. We've decided to put up the pre-Steamworks version of Civilization IV (+ expansions) on Steam as an optional "Beta" download, which should allow Direct IP games to continue for those who want to play this way. We've posted some instructions on how to access this version of the game on our Knowledge Base. Hope this helps!

2K David said:

Hi all, thanks for providing feedback on Direct IP multiplayer. We've decided to put up the pre-Steamworks version of Civilization IV (+ expansions) on Steam as an optional "Beta" download, which should allow Direct IP games to continue for those who want to play this way. We've posted some instructions on how to access this version of the game on our Knowledge Base. Hope this helps!

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Any chance of Steam achievements down the road? Honestly I'm all for steamworks integration.

Welcome to Civfanatics 2K David!!!

Now, please tell us that Civ 6 will be more like Civ 4 in complexity and I guarantee you will become very popular here.

2K David said:

Hi all, thanks for providing feedback on Direct IP multiplayer. We've decided to put up the pre-Steamworks version of Civilization IV (+ expansions) on Steam as an optional "Beta" download, which should allow Direct IP games to continue for those who want to play this way. We've posted some instructions on how to access this version of the game on our Knowledge Base. Hope this helps!

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Welcome to CivFanatics.

Thank you for this info. We can play GoTM's again. Appreciate the help.

2K David said:

Hi all, thanks for providing feedback on Direct IP multiplayer. We've decided to put up the pre-Steamworks version of Civilization IV (+ expansions) on Steam as an optional "Beta" download, which should allow Direct IP games to continue for those who want to play this way. We've posted some instructions on how to access this version of the game on our Knowledge Base. Hope this helps!

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Hats off for listening to a, maybe rather small, but VERY dedicated fangroup

2K David said:

Hi all, thanks for providing feedback on Direct IP multiplayer. We've decided to put up the pre-Steamworks version of Civilization IV (+ expansions) on Steam as an optional "Beta" download, which should allow Direct IP games to continue for those who want to play this way. We've posted some instructions on how to access this version of the game on our Knowledge Base. Hope this helps!

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It's a shame that you can't create one gives you the option to do either. (which is what you probably should have done in the first place.)

I play a lot of direct IP but when we run into firewall issues that a player can't resolve it would be nice to have the other option available. Win Win.