New pitboss

ReallyEvilMuff said:

I offered this in a previous post to get the game rolling, and have already played my turn this turn as if that would be acceptable. I felt bad about causing a reload to a couple of turns back, and want to get the game moving again, and this solves most of my complaint without causing a reload. I am waiting for caledorn/HBHR reply on that.

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I have no objections to this solution if you're okay with it - in fact it is by far the best solution from my POV as it sets a precedent that obviously is desirable in this game by allowing double moves in peacetime, no matter what, which means I am unlikely to get involved again in any rulings.

As for the long posts that continues on the discussion I had with 2metraninja, I have no further comments on that, as I consider the matter closed with my offer to either resign as admin, or ensure the rules for this game are clarified to state that peace time double moves are allowed. I have absolutely no interest in discussing whether RB, Apolyton, CFC or whatnot community has the best rules. I have stated what rules I prefer to rule by, and asked for a clarification of the rules in this game if I am to be able to even make any rulings if the need pops up again. The solution here offered does clarify it, and minimises my intervention in a pretty nice and solid manner.

Caledorn said:

I have no objections to this solution if you're okay with it - in fact it is by far the best solution from my POV as it sets a precedent that obviously is desirable in this game by allowing double moves in peacetime, no matter what, which means I am unlikely to get involved again in any rulings.

As for the long posts that continues on the discussion I had with 2metraninja, I have no further comments on that, as I consider the matter closed with my offer to either resign as admin, or ensure the rules for this game are clarified to state that peace time double moves are allowed. I have absolutely no interest in discussing whether RB, Apolyton, CFC or whatnot community has the best rules. I have stated what rules I prefer to rule by, and asked for a clarification of the rules in this game if I am to be able to even make any rulings if the need pops up again. The solution here offered does clarify it, and minimises my intervention in a pretty nice and solid manner.

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I actually thought it set the other precedent, ie that peacetime doubles aren't allowed. Thus as a peacetime double move had been done but we would agree to not reload here as it could be sorted by swapping the turns back a turn later if everyone is in agreement.

No worries 2metra. I just dislike the idea that benefit could be gained from fiddling around with a timer. I could have done that and probably succeeded as I have little planned this weekend, but it wouldn't have felt right. I see less issue in settler moves as a turn x for both parties is turn x. I differentiate with war because the turn you see it coming is a big benefit, making you more aggressive with the whip, your unit builds, where you move units and how you play in general. The settler moves though, I see your logic completely. Whilst what caledorn says may not feel 100% fair, it is the best way in my view to arbitrate which doesn't rely on luck as who gets to the game first when a turn rolls. It is the best way to rule on the situation. It is a necessary evil.

I'm not quite sure what you mean HBHR, I logged in to look and saw you 2 tiles away from where you were turn 101. You surely had time to log in last turn and finish your moves though as you hadn't finished your turn and logged in pretty much when the turn rolled? I don't get how I could double move you sorry as I had already been playing first in the order...

ReallyEvilMuff said:

I actually thought it set the other precedent, ie that peacetime doubles aren't allowed. Thus as a peacetime double move had been done but we would agree to not reload here as it could be sorted by swapping the turns back a turn later if everyone is in agreement.

No worries 2metra. I just dislike the idea that benefit could be gained from fiddling around with a timer. I could have done that and probably succeeded as I have little planned this weekend, but it wouldn't have felt right. I see less issue in settler moves as a turn x for both parties is turn x. I differentiate with war because the turn you see it coming is a big benefit, making you more aggressive with the whip, your unit builds, where you move units and how you play in general. The settler moves though, I see your logic completely. Whilst what caledorn says may not feel 100% fair, it is the best way in my view to arbitrate which doesn't rely on luck as who gets to the game first when a turn rolls. It is the best way to rule on the situation. It is a necessary evil.

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As for your first paragraph, the precedent being set is that it is okay, because you can just double move back. So it does set a precedent that only the final turn before declaring war is part of a turn split, and up until that final turn anything goes.

The second paragraph is the entire core of it all. A player who is anywhere remotely paying attention to what he is doing (and of course all players who are in a game to win will be paying attention) will know well in advance when it is time to go to war, and be able to plan accordingly a few turns before making the big move to declare. There are very very few wars that are declared on a random whim, and in real competitive games I would say there is none. Avoiding timer games is the reason why I prefer the rules that state that you start to adhere to a turn split a few turns before declaration of war. That is my personal preference, to avoid bad blood between players and to avoid admin intervention (this would not even be a discussion if everyone here adhered to it, and the game would be playing on with you and HBHR probably in a war now).

Caledorn said:

As for your first paragraph, the precedent being set is that it is okay, because you can just double move back. So it does set a precedent that only the final turn before declaring war is part of a turn split, and up until that final turn anything goes.

The second paragraph is the entire core of it all. A player who is anywhere remotely paying attention to what he is doing (and of course all players who are in a game to win will be paying attention) will know well in advance when it is time to go to war, and be able to plan accordingly a few turns before making the big move to declare. There are very very few wars that are declared on a random whim, and in real competitive games I would say there is none. Avoiding timer games is the reason why I prefer the rules that state that you start to adhere to a turn split a few turns before declaration of war. That is my personal preference, to avoid bad blood between players and to avoid admin intervention (this would not even be a discussion if everyone here adhered to it, and the game would be playing on with you and HBHR probably in a war now).

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I thought the precedent that it is not ok, and should not happen in the future. But this time a reload can be avoided as an admin approved double move back sorts out a majority of the issue. So essentially I would not want this to happen again to anyone in the game, but this time to save hassle the admin approved turn order switch is acceptable. But I understand completely your desire to not get in the middle of these things

Exactly on wars. The only whim wars are poorly defended sets/workers in the open that suddenly appear in your sights.

I'm not quite sure what to make of it all now. Part of me wishes to avoid this I had just not ended my turn and rolled into playing the next one first, as that would have been easier. But I guess we would have just had this convo one turn later, and I would have felt a bit low and indefensible saying 'I did it back because he did it first!' Very Jeremy Kyle (Springer for you Americans)

Well, there is nothing stopping the discussion from continuing. I will not involve myself if the discussion keeps being about hypothetical situations that will never arise, nor if it discards long term strategic thinking (like a good player knowing well in advance when he wants to go to war), and nor if it continues to entail what Civ community has the "best rules". But even if I don't involve myself, I will of course base any future ruling upon what you players agree upon. If the discussion can focus on this game however, and how to approach issues like this, without the above and without getting personal towards other people's preferences, then I will be happy to offer my views and arguments, if any arises.

That's fine caledorn. I basically agree with everything you said, whilst sympathising with 2metra and agreeing that it isn't a great rule re settlers. There's just no other fair way to do it though. I've pretty much said my all on this, and will stand by whatever ruling you use, I just hope that it doesn't mean I need to clock watch before a war...

I am repeating again there is clear definition what consist of a double move. The reason why nothing is said about peace-time double moves is simply they are not forbiden. Like all other things not forbidden.
As for clock games, I said I have no time for them because maintaining peace time turn order for me is almost impossible. I have no time, nor desire for that. But because someone had the luck to been playing first before me the turn I deside to go to war with him, this to force me to not use the attacker's advantage of choosing the timer half? This I cant agree with.

However, I see why you are feeling being wronged like if someone is trying to take advantage because he have more time or he set up things like that. But hbhr says he could not finish turn and he could had declared last turn and he did not do that or something like that so the case is not 100 percent clear. Should we penalize him if he was acting with the assumption he is not doing something wrong ? Or because his english is worse so he cant explain well?

About getting personal, I for myself see as belitling and disregarding being told "this works for Rb so it must work for everyone without explaining. Ok, clock games are not nice, but if i cant spell them right, i am not going to forbid them, but will look for a way to secure myself againt them. Mind you, here we dont have proof hbhr did tried to abuse rl time.

2metraninja said:

I am repeating again there is clear definition what consist of a double move. The reason why nothing is said about peace-time double moves is simply they are not forbiden. Like all other things not forbidden.
As for clock games, I said I have no time for them because maintaining peace time turn order for me is almost impossible. I have no time, nor desire for that. But because someone had the luck to been playing first before me the turn I deside to go to war with him, this to force me to not use the attacker's advantage of choosing the timer half? This I cant agree with.

However, I see why you are feeling being wronged like if someone is trying to take advantage because he have more time or he set up things like that. But hbhr says he could not finish turn and he could had declared last turn and he did not do that or something like that so the case is not 100 percent clear. Should we penalize him if he was acting with the assumption he is not doing something wrong ? Or because his english is worse so he cant explain well?

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But HBHR surely could have finished last turn - if you look at civstats he logged in the minute the turn rolled. Also he didn't declare but his previous posts he clearly thinks that I would have double moved him in an unacceptable manner if I held the timer and went before him next turn, so he thinks that there are peace time double moves too. I don't think we are penalising him because we are just returning the turn order to how it was. I certainly hope we aren't penalising him because his English isn't good, hence why I gave Caledorn my PW to see first hand the situation.

I am not entirely familiar with what happened besides that there is no war declared. Thus by the rules I took the time to spell out and put in the first post, there cant be a double move case. Tricky? Yes, might be. Either you can set this with the other player, or you suck it up or you act tricky and not quite gentlemanly (as you see it) on your turn. Hbhr cant complain about double move as there is no war declared.

2metraninja said:

About getting personal, I for myself see as belitling and disregarding being told "this works for Rb so it must work for everyone without explaining. Ok, clock games are not nice, but if i cant spell them right, i am not going to forbid them, but will look for a way to secure myself againt them. Mind you, here we dont have proof hbhr did tried to abuse rl time.

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I most certainly never said or implied anything even remotely like that. Everyone here can read the chat, as you posted it with my blessing. Everyone here can read what I have responded to you, and I have been adamant and crystal clear to the fact that my personal preferences is not meant to be either yours, nor anyone else's preferences.

I find it amazing that, instead of offering a nice little apology if you said something that could be perceived as a personal attack, you go frontal assault mode and whip up something completely fictional (that I have belittled or disregarded your personal preferences), and I must admit I also find it very very distasteful that you take that into public discourse instead of leaving quarrelling out of this thread.

Remember, 2metraninja, that I am doing the hosting work and admin work as a courtesy and favour for the community. It costs me time and effort whenever I have to reload a game, fix something technical that needs to be taken care of, and so forth. You are not exactly showing much appreciation of neither my services nor my time by acting the way you do towards me over this simple disagreement. I stated several times that I couldn't care less about what rules you like over what rules I like, and that there is no such thing as "the best rules" as it all comes down to personal taste. So now stop treating me as I am belittling any of your opinions or views on the rules, and accept that I am perfectly able to be a game admin without having to adhere to the rules I personally prefer as long as the rules are unambiguously written.

Edit: And if you read the two PMs I sent you on Hangouts/GTalk before you posted here, you know what made me annoyed and why. I will be happy to share those two PMs with the rest of the players, but I believe the point of taking up things in private is that the rest of the players wouldn't have to suffer through public quarrelling.

As a funny story to lift the suspence a bit, I saw similar thing, but with reversed roles. In one game one guy was claiming double move because he showed on other guy borders with army but not declared a war. The potential victim sees this and plays turn. In the next turn he plays before the potential attacker. The wannabe attacker ask for a reload. When asked why he did not declared war he is like: well, i though it is obvious.

I think you are not entirely correct to say I dont appreciate what you are doing for us, as I use every case to say "thank you" for all you do. And I had never saw you felt insulted from what we discussed about principles to know I need to apology. I said I will abide by your ruling despite what it is.

On the other hand, I said I did felt belittled for being told few times in a row that the examples I give are not going to ever happen and that I must stick to what is proven to work in a different site. Or being said few times that if there were simple and easy to follow rules to follow, you would had ruled by them. I dont really insist you to rule as I see it fair, but for me there is obvious that the rules are there. It is said what is forbidden and what is considered a double-move. Anyone could had said if he dont like those rules in advance.

Until now I did not saw something which needs to be hidden, we are discussing rules and principles here. So I dont see problem with making this discussion here.

2metraninja said:

I think you are not entirely correct to say I dont appreciate what you are doing for us, as I use every case to say "thank you" for all you do. And I had never saw you felt insulted from what we discussed about principles to know I need to apology. I said I will abide by your ruling despite what it is.

On the other hand, I said I did felt belittled for being told few times in a row that the examples I give are not going to ever happen and that I must stick to what is proven to work in a different site. Or being said few times that if there were simple and easy to follow rules to follow, you would had ruled by them. I dont really insist you to rule as I see it fair, but for me there is obvious that the rules are there. It is said what is forbidden and what is considered a double-move. Anyone could had said if he dont like those rules in advance.

Until now I did not saw something which needs to be hidden, we are discussing rules and principles here. So I dont see problem with making this discussion here.

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I DO see a problem making this discussion here, so I will leave it at that. You can go on and flame the thread all you want. I have better things to do than quarrel with you over this. And congratulations for actually alienating me.

I am not in a mood for quareling, nor I was looking for one. I was using wife's iphone and got my hand tired of clicking the small letters and whistles.

For me the case is clear. You judge as you see fit and we abide to it.

Crosspost with Cal

2metraninja said:

I am not in a mood for quareling, nor I was looking for one. I was using wife's iphone and got my hand tired of clicking the small letters and whistles.

For me the case is clear. You judge as you see fit and we abide to it.

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Good. Case closed.

Sorry Caledorn, but i need you reload the game, i don´t move my troops, so is not fair ¿why you dont like reload?
And REM, my bro was in airport when turn roll back, i can send you the passboard if you want, he try to log in before the turn roll, but was impossible, but don´t ask reload inmediatelly because preffer lost this move to win the first part of the turn. But, if this was not possible, then i need you reload the last turn. Sorry, but is the fair things. And REM, when you log in the last turn (330 BC,) surely you see my troops in the forrest near to your borders, so why you don't say the truth and admit i don't move my troops...?
And yes, i dont speak english, and don't use google translate because in my personal experience, don't work well, so, usually i can't explain very well my opinions
I accept the Caledorn decission, even if don't agree, but i need the reload, is the fair thing.
PD: OTH, actually i'm playing in a very good BTS champioships, The Spanish championship, lasting at least 10 years (first pitbosses was with Vanilla), playing at least four new games every year, is very good organizated, have extensive and clear rules, "don'be a jerk" can be one of them, but in this championship, double move TWO turns BEFORE the turn you DoW is fine, despite this, This games evolve very very well, so in my personal opinion, are not nothing wrong with this, but again, i accept this rule (although in the first post rules, dont say nothing about this).

OT4E said:

From my experience attempts to implement complicated rules about double moves dont bring appropriate result. So I am completely fine with "stop being a jerk rule".

One important thing I think must be mentioned is that the responsibility for performing double moves lies on the player. And it is fully your duty to take care of everyone to be happy with how are you making moves. If you see that you are going to interact with a potential enemy you must comply turn order. It can be 1 turn before the war is declared or even more. In doubtful situation better let your opponent move first.

About settlers there cant be clear solution. Someone is always being first to move settler somewhere. Harsh ruling will result in not finishing turns, timer-tracking and not sleeping during nights that will obviously give advantage to the players who can share more real time to the game.

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This.

So, my final ruling is then as follows:

In this specific incident, to avoid further slowdown in the gameplay, REM is allowed to double move HBHR in the next turn. This means that HBHR shall not log in next turn until after REM has logged in and played his turn. Alternatively, if a reload to the previous turn is absolutely necessary, I will have to rule that a war declaration can only happen this turn (that means that if I reload to the previous turn, no war declaration can be made on the previous turn. but must wait until the previous turn has been finished by all players). Please consider the implications of nearly everyone having to play two turns over again though before forcing me to do a reload.

For the remainder of this game, rule #7 also means this:

"The responsibility for performing double moves lies on the player. It is fully your duty to take care of everyone to be happy with how are you making moves. If you see that you are going to interact with a potential enemy you must comply turn order. It can be 1 turn before the war is declared or even more. In a doubtful situation better let your opponent move first."

Do note that this is almost a perfect copy of how my original interpretation of how the "Do not be a jerk" applies to pre-war time double moves.

As for the settlers issue that was really just an example on my part, please ignore anything related to settlers for this game and move them as you see fit yourself. I will not allow reloads or penalise anyone for double moving settlers, as my ruling only applies to pre-war double moves.

And finally, I will not engage in a discussion about "How many turns is the correct amount of turns before declaring a war?". The ruling I have done clearly states that it can be 1 turn, or more, and it also clearly states that if you are in doubt, then you should let your opponent move first. If another situation like this arises, I will make any future rulings based on this same interpretation, and I will rely on player reports to make a ruling if that should happen. If I find that someone has obviously done pre-war double moves, I will give penalties (where the harsher ones would be orders to skip a turn of movement for units, deletion of units, and so forth) on the offending party, as there is a clear precedent being set here in this ruling. Does anyone have any major issue with this precedent?

HBHR said:

Sorry Caledorn, but i need you reload the game, i don´t move my troops, so is not fair ¿why you dont like reload?
And REM, my bro was in airport when turn roll back, i can send you the passboard if you want, he try to log in before the turn roll, but was impossible, but don´t ask reload inmediatelly because preffer lost this move to win the first part of the turn. But, if this was not possible, then i need you reload the last turn. Sorry, but is the fair things. And REM, when you log in the last turn (330 BC,) surely you see my troops in the forrest near to your borders, so why you don't say the truth and admit i don't move my troops...?
And yes, i dont speak english, and don't use google translate because in my personal experience, don't work well, so, usually i can't explain very well my opinions
I accept the Caledorn decission, even if don't agree, but i need the reload, is the fair thing.
PD: OTH, actually i'm playing in a very good BTS champioships, The Spanish championship, lasting at least 10 years (first pitbosses was with Vanilla), playing at least four new games every year, is very good organizated, have extensive and clear rules, "don'be a jerk" can be one of them, but in this championship, double move TWO turns BEFORE the turn you DoW is fine, despite this, This games evolve very very well, so in my personal opinion, are not nothing wrong with this, but again, i accept this rule (although in the first post rules, dont say nothing about this).

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I am having a hard time accepting these arguments, travel papers or not, because of this:

10/24/14 6:44 am sub Logged out
10/24/14 6:41 am sub Score decreased to 246
10/24/14 6:18 am sub Logged in

That is nearly 30 minutes spent in the game in the previous turn, according to Civstats. If your brother were not able to move the units within a 26 minute window, it seems to me that it is very unfair to the rest of the players to demand a reload, and that you should accept that you are at a disadvantage.

As for the double move rules, I firmly believe that other ways of implementing these rules works just as well, perhaps even better, in other communities. It all comes down to a matter of personal taste for different communities, and different experiences with what works and not. The important thing is that everyone knows what rules apply to the game they are in, and that everyone abides by them. It is unfortunate that an incident like this had to occur in this game, but at least now the rules have been clarified for the future so hopefully incidents like this will not reoccur in this game.

Caledorn said:

I am having a hard time accepting these arguments, travel papers or not, because of this:

10/24/14 6:44 am sub Logged out
10/24/14 6:41 am sub Score decreased to 246
10/24/14 6:18 am sub Logged in

That is nearly 30 minutes spent in the game in the previous turn, according to Civstats. If your brother were not able to move the units within a 26 minute window, it seems to me that it is very unfair to the rest of the players to demand a reload, and that you should accept that you are at a disadvantage.

As for the double move rules, I firmly believe that other ways of implementing these rules works just as well, perhaps even better, in other communities. It all comes down to a matter of personal taste for different communities, and different experiences with what works and not. The important thing is that everyone knows what rules apply to the game they are in, and that everyone abides by them. It is unfortunate that an incident like this had to occur in this game, but at least now the rules have been clarified for the future so hopefully incidents like this will not reoccur in this game.

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Awesome, Caledorn, you are really bad admin, and a really big "jerk"... a good admin take in count all the players, don't just his friends... say that, you need found a permanent replacement to my civ, don't because we can't still destroy the REM's civ, actually i'm sure he is dead anyway, but because we are not playing in a game where the admin is incompetent...
And REM, you really dissapoint me, because you are cheater; you clearly know we don't move the troops, but you don't say a world about that, just take advantage of this, you not have sportmanship
About the other players, good game, sorry for you, is better for you try another admin, an unbiased admin. And take in count you are playing with one cheat player.

Best regards

PD: i suggest an impartial player, don't Caledorn, of course, take the saves and log in like admin, and see who is lying. Just for the records, i'm out anyway.