G-Major 134

Here's the pace I've set:

T7: built a warrior (settled PH and work FPH)

T13: capture a worker!

T15: Huge setback My scout is killed! No more huts for me...however I suspect they're just about gone since I went with the Seas and Dense Clusters. I hope I can manage to meet everyone (or more accurately, they can manage to meet me) by the time Alphabet is available.

I did manage to get Agriculture and Animal Husbandry free and 249 gold. I have no use for AH at the moment...but the one thing my scout did before he died was reveal that Joao has horses in the first ring of his capital.

Joao is the first target since he's obviously so close with a worker steal only 6 turns after the warrior came out. More importantly, he has horse in the first ring. That means no GW rush for me. It's going to be chariot/HA/Knight.

Gandhi is next, so I set all EPs on him for now. Soon after, I learn he's researching Animal Husbandry.

Around T50:
I've sent 2 warriors to stake out Gandhi's Pig and Cow. Sure enough, a worker shows up on Pig right after he finishes AH. Wait.... Wait.... Naturally another worker shows up on the Cow. Pounce!

Meanwhile, I finally make peace with Joao and backstab him for another worker

T90 Empire status:

I'm researching HorsebackRiding.
I have 4 cities with Pop 8 total. 4 workers. 3 Gold. Horses.

The plan:
I have marble coming in the 2nd ring, so an Oracle is probably in my future. Ideally, Feudalism around T160. I think the Oracle will go that late, right?

Assuming I've taken care of 4 AI by then with my chariot/HA's, I'm hoping that my power is high enough to take at least 3 peace vassals. Ones that are really far away I hope.

That gives me 90 turns to vassalize the remaining ~7 civs if I want to reach my T250 goal.

You make it sound so easy!

Firmlife said:

I'm Sorry to hear that Seraiel, it seems kind of crazy to me to reject a game for a single crash. The good side is, as WastinTime says, at least we know they are strict and consistent.

The better side is, hey, now you have even more reason to play the gauntlet!

And the answer, WastinTime, is, yes copper, but in the middle of a desert I haven't settled yet but can if I get desperate. Alternately, a couple border pops will do it. Lincoln currently has iron for trade and I'm trying to see what he will require for it, but alas, work.

Click to expand...

My game didn't crash only once, but it crashed 4 times in about 20 turns always with the same reason.

I'm here to say that I already had games with multiple crashes that got accepted, because I was able to duplicate them by 100%, but in this game, I just must have moved one or several units differently, it's actually impossible to be completely accurate there with the amount of units in this game in specific.

I appreciate very much what the HoF-staff does, and don't want it to change any of it's rules, it's better for me and all if some games get excluded as if the HoF would be a place with games that had a significant amount of reloading in them.

Sry for all the fuss again.

I've finished a Space Colony game which I played because generating starts on Large / Highlands just takes so long.

That means, next, I'm gonna join this battle again .

WastinTime, 4 stolen Workers, need to steal too, otherwise I'll have no chance against you. I'm by far not as good at Workerstealing like you probably, but maybe I can manage to get one or two.

What would interest me is, how you manage to get a peace deal when you attack only with Warriors.

'til later,

Seraiel

Seraiel said:

What would interest me is, how you manage to get a peace deal when you attack only with Warriors.

Click to expand...

You have a couple options:

1) play Aggressive AI. They make peace faster/easier if you threaten cities.

However, Agg AI doesn't sound like a great idea for fast conquest, so I'm not saying I recommend that.

2) Wait. and wait some more. They should eventually give you peace. It's very hard to collect a lot of workers with this option.

3) Seek out their scouts and kill them.

4) Lure their archers into attacking your warriors on defensive terrain.

WastinTime said:

...
T90 Empire status:

I'm researching HorsebackRiding.
I have 4 cities with Pop 8 total. ...

Click to expand...

Have you stolen a settler, too?!! 4 cities with BW coming around T70, a worker starting to farm - for 15 turns - a wheat starting around turn 20... You are a magician...

FiveRings said:

Have you stolen a settler, too?!! 4 cities with BW coming around T70, a worker starting to farm - for 15 turns - a wheat starting around turn 20... You are a magician...

Click to expand...

I assume you're joking about the settler, they of course turn into workers if you capture them.

after T90
My economy started to collapse as I attempted to continue conquest. HBR took longer than expected and I had to pull out emergency procedures to stay afloat. Crawled my way thru Math and I decided to Oracle Currency.

Recall my plan was to research Monarchy instead of Math and I'd have free Feudalism right now. I chose not to because :
1) Math chops are nice
2) the AI wasn't going to give me math any time soon
3) The Mansa in my game is very backward, so no good tech trades
4) Currency is so good for the economy.
5) It's too early to take vassals. I need a core of keeper cities.
6) I don't have enough power yet to get peace vassals either.
7) Trading away Math and Currency is not a big deal, but I don't want to give away Monarchy and shorten the path to Longbows for anyone.

Oracle comes in quite early. I keep my fingers crossed that you get it and return to the game as Serael's date is an extremely good one. I am fascinated to follow your progress! I tried your approach and stole two workers early on, however, my start was with three corns but no gold/gems, so I gave up as I evidently can't keep with your pace under the settings. Ah, and I didn't get techs from huts, too...

FiveRings said:

Oracle comes in quite early. I keep my fingers crossed that you get it and return to the game as Serael's date is an extremely good one. I am fascinated to follow your progress! I tried your approach and stole two workers early on, however, my start was with three corns but no gold/gems, so I gave up as I evidently can't keep with your pace under the settings. Ah, and I didn't get techs from huts, too...

Click to expand...

When I said "decided to get Currency" I meant that in the past tense. I already did it around T180. As far as I could tell, no one was going to build it before 190 in my game.

It's T203.

I'm considering a couple missionaries to get a couple temples in my Oracle city (no religion spread yet ). The purpose being to pop a GProphet for a shrine. Half the world is Budda and half Juda. I have the Juda Holy city. This is where the T250 goal becomes important. It will take at least 10 turns to get those temples up and another 30 turns of GPP generation. Then the GPro needs to move. So I can't even get it online until around T250. Seems like a waste of hammers on the temples if I'm right about the end date. But if the game drags out, this could be a critical mistake cus I could run out of money.

I suppose I could just invest in a useless library so I can run 2 Sci. That will at least give me a shot at either a shrine or a golden age.

Or I could wait until someone gets CoL and use caste to pop one out.

I'm currently looking at a T209 Feudalism. Everything is going as planned for T250 win. However, it all hinges on being able to take 3-4 peace vassals. I don't know if I can do that this early. Even if I have to do it the hard way, I don't see this game going past T299. If the final date starts with a '2', I'll consider that validation of my T250 prediction. After all, this is only my first game, and have not played much Conquest in my career. I'm sure Kaitzilla or Tachy could get T250.

I optimized my empire and built a tiny bit of research to target T208 Feudalism.

Assuming that you have avoided Fishing (with this being a Highlands map...) a GS can bulb Machinery, or even Engineering.

A Machinery bulb will surely be better than a shrine, because 2-movement Xbows will devastate the AI before they can build Longbows, and conquest gold will fuel your final tech push. Xbows are markedly better than Longbows, since they render Swords and Axemen defenders useless (at least 50% of defenders before the AI reaches Construction and spams Catapults). I would be amazed if you need any to research beyond Engineering, but pillaging Cottages with Morale Horse Archers is an easy way to shore up the economy, although it increases the need to micro.

Obviously it is best to generate a large stack of 4XP Longbows and Xbows, so that you have enough promoted troops to continue pushing on when the AI reaches Feudalism. Guerilla III is a great promotion, but you should expect an initial 50% attrition rate, and the 50% that do survive will need to spend 3 turns (adjusted upwards for Marathon) healing, which will slow your victory date considerably if you don't have a large enough stack. Better than Horse Archers anyway.

My 2¢, as an ignoramus who has only ever played OCC on Marathon. Good luck!

I'm currently playing a game where I stole 8 Workers in the beginning from a neighbouring AI, and stole another 12 Workers in the first war. Conquered the Mids, the GLH, the Colossus, the GL and a few more wonders.

Still, my finish date will probably not be as good as it was in the rejected game. Problem is just, that I was unable to trade sufficient amounts of from the AIs. Currently I'm crawling to Liberalism with -60 / turn at 0%. Without Caste-Merchants, I'd have been broke many times already, once my units even went on strike, but as most of you will know, the first strike is free, so no units get lost.

Good to see, that WastinTime has economical problems too in this game. No idea what's causing the huge maintenance, probably unit- and city-maintenance, but running such a high deficit even at 0% with Caste-Merchants is something new for me aswell. Maybe this is also the reason, why T250 Conquest is hopelessly unrealistic with these settings. I'm quite sure, neither Kaitzilla nor Tachywaxon could achieve this.

Also, XBows are too weak and too slow if they have too wait on the siege, and not waiting on the siege would mean fighting Longbows which have a higher base-STR through all the hills and the cities. That doesn't mean, that GS-Engi-rush wouldn't be good, but I suppose Cuirrassiers are still better. Otherwise I'd at least prefer Ele- / Mace-treb.

Hopefully, Doshin will join the battle around this Gauntlet aswell, as he's a very good player, and more competition is always good.

Very interested in hearing game-reports from the others too, hopefully the settings of this Gauntlet are not too hard so that people are giving up.

All the AI seem technologically crippled in my game (some of that was my doing )
I don't think anyone will get longbows or elephants. The big problem I have now is that everyone thinks they're "Doing Fine on our own" when asked to be a peace vassal. I thought I understood the rules, but no one will cooperate.

Anyone have any advice on Peace Vassals? I'd rather not have to attack everyone.

Doshin said:

Assuming that you have avoided Fishing (with this being a Highlands map...) a GS can bulb Machinery, or even Engineering.

A Machinery bulb will surely be better than a shrine, because 2-movement Xbows will devastate the AI before they can build Longbows, and conquest gold will fuel your final tech push. Xbows are markedly better than Longbows, since they render Swords and Axemen defenders useless (at least 50% of defenders before the AI reaches Construction and spams Catapults). I would be amazed if you need any to research beyond Engineering, but pillaging Cottages with Morale Horse Archers is an easy way to shore up the economy, although it increases the need to micro.

Obviously it is best to generate a large stack of 4XP Longbows and Xbows, so that you have enough promoted troops to continue pushing on when the AI reaches Feudalism. Guerilla III is a great promotion, but you should expect an initial 50% attrition rate, and the 50% that do survive will need to spend 3 turns (adjusted upwards for Marathon) healing, which will slow your victory date considerably if you don't have a large enough stack. Better than Horse Archers anyway.

My 2¢, as an ignoramus who has only ever played OCC on Marathon. Good luck!

Click to expand...

My game has Seas, so there's plenty of seafood and water tiles give a nice 2 commerce. Not great, but necessary. I wouldn't want to pass on fishing (or sailing for trade rts on water), but I like your strategy and I hope someone tries it. If you're going to get machinery, seems logical to go one more tech to Guilds. Knights could easily be effective until Rifles.

I don't think Xbows move fast enough tho. I'm moving around the map pretty fast with my Horses. I've got the map pretty well roaded, so I get 4-movement. My plan was to do the guilds/knights thing, but I'm 99% sure I can finish with Horse Archers.

WastinTime said:

Anyone have any advice on Peace Vassals? I'd rather not have to attack everyone.

Click to expand...

Peace vassal mechanics are explained here.

IIRC, "Doing Fine on our own" means AI power is above average power or above 2/3 of your power. Note that your power is divided by 2, if the AI is not a land target.

Pollina said:

Peace vassal mechanics are explained here.

IIRC, "Doing Fine on our own" means AI power is above average power or above 2/3 of your power. Note that your power is divided by 2, if the AI is not a land target.

Click to expand...

thx, yes, I knew that, I've been reading the code. maybe I'll find something else in the link you referenced. thx again.
I'm sure my Power is double theirs, and they all can't be over the average power. In fact, none of them should be above average with my power so high. I killed off all the weaklings. And if I understand Land Target correctly, at least a couple of them have to be land targets. Maybe land target is the problem if it's not what I think it is.

Ah Ha!

"- They will also not accept peacevassaling if the possible master has either the pop or the land area for a dom win"

This might be it. I have the most population-- 13% over Cathy's 12%. So a little whipping might turn on the vassal switch. No problemo, cus I just got Vassalage and I've been waiting to whip.

I did not think I would have most population since most of my cities are very small. So I forgot to check that number.

And regarding LandTarget, everyone is a land target on highlands. edit: No, being on the same land mass is not 'land target'. You need to share 8 border tiles

Edit: No, that's not it.
I have the most population, but i don't have enough for a Dom win. That's 36%.
Gotta keep looking....

WastinTime said:

And regarding LandTarget, everyone is a land target on highlands.

Click to expand...

I thought you (or one of your vassals) needed an 8(?) tiles long border with an AI to be its land target.

Here are a couple test saves. Power ratio with Hatty is >3.0 in the first one and she will peace vassal. If you delete one of the tanks it drops below 3.0, and she won't peace vassal anymore. If she was a land target, the threshold would be 1.5.

In the second save I added a few cities near her border. The threshold is 1.5, as expected.

Pollina said:

I thought you (or one of your vassals) needed an 8(?) tiles long border with an AI to be its land target.

Here are a couple test saves. Power ratio with Hatty is >3.0 in the first one and she will peace vassal. If you delete one of the tanks it drops below 3.0, and she won't peace vassal anymore. If she was a land target, the threshold would be 1.5.

In the second save I added a few cities near her border. The threshold is 1.5, as expected.

Click to expand...

Thx for the test game. It appears that 7 tiles is enough. Edit:It takes 8 tiles.
Important notes: It has to be 8 tiles of the AI that touch yours. Water tiles do not count! Diagonals do count

I also learned that the Vassal's pop must be <= 50% of those of the Master.

So I tried it out on your test game:
If you raise Hatty's population to 6, she won't vassal.

That's my problem. I don't have the population yet. Looks like I need to capture and keep some more cities and maybe lay off the whip. Maybe I'll run Serfdom instead?

WastinTime said:

Thx for the test game. It appears that 7 tiles is enough. Edit:It takes 8 tiles.
Important notes: It has to be 8 tiles of the AI that touch yours. Water tiles do not count! Diagonals do count

I also learned that the Vassal's pop must be <= 50% of those of the Master.

So I tried it out on your test game:
If you raise Hatty's population to 6, she won't vassal.

That's my problem. I don't have the population yet. Looks like I need to capture and keep some more cities and maybe lay off the whip. Maybe I'll run Serfdom instead?

Click to expand...

It must be a combination of land and pop. If you take my first test game, you can give Hatty a very high pop (as long as you raise the pop for some distant AI, too), and she will still vassal. But if you increase her city culture to 15 for a border pop, she won't vassal anymore.

In the second save, she won't vassal at pop 6. But if you expand the borders in one of your cities, she will.

I encountered that issue in OCC conquest/domination games I've played. I couldn't cap an AI that had more than 50% of my land. Population wasn't the issue in those games.