SGOTM 21 - Jag älskar er

The power graph might be interesting: it looks like Willem started turn 0 with 18000. I don't understand score enough to know if it could be from techs, but I tend to doubt it. Is it possible he has a machine gun or something in his capital? I will have to look back at old demo screens, and see if his power value is exceptional among AI's, or normal. Can someone check the score value to tell us if the power could possibly be from tech?
 
You keep mentioning opening old saves. That would give me so much information... but doesn't post 162 say we can't do that? What am I misunderstanding?
And I meant the score differential for having a technology on turn 0 that would increase your power that much. I think that since we are higher in score than Willem, he probably doesn't have an advanced military technology, but I am not sure without a better understanding of what makes up a score.
 
You aren't allowed to open autosaves, because they might have irreversible actions embedded. Opening manual saves is fine, as long as you are *very* careful and don't move anything. You can get our 4000bc save on the submissions page http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php - choose Display Format -> List of Saves. Be careful to only download our saves, and not other teams' saves.
 
So, when the European crowd awakes, there are two questions:

1) What to do about the barbarian archer?

2) Should the workboat scout fur island or focus on fogbusting cow city?

1) His manners are questionable, but his weaponry is quite advanced. I'm impressed by his rude power.

2) i think I shouldn't comment on this.
 
1:I would move warrior Ne, then fortify to try to kill or at least reduce the strenght of the archer.

2:My vote on exploring.
 
1) Move warrior NE. Barbs won't enter borders until the civilizations has an average of >3 cities.

2) I think workboat could get 1 tile into the fog west of cow city, that's more info than we get from fur city and in a direction we are unlikely to scout anytime soon otherwise, so I vote for that. Comes with some additional fogbusting on the way.

Sorry the test game isn't accurate there, haven't had time to edit it. I did mention that I haven't done anything to the revealed lands, only the land shown in starting screen is accurate. In any case, even if a test is supposedly 100% accurate, I'd advice the active player to always start by having a look at the real save. There might be mistakes in the test game, or forests grown in the real game or something like that.
 
The power graph might be interesting: it looks like Willem started turn 0 with 18000. I don't understand score enough to know if it could be from techs, but I tend to doubt it. Is it possible he has a machine gun or something in his capital? I will have to look back at old demo screens, and see if his power value is exceptional among AI's, or normal. Can someone check the score value to tell us if the power could possibly be from tech?
You should read this article.

About soldier counts:
Spoiler :
Factor 1- Population points. For every two population points from all your cities you get 1000 soldiers. So;
1pop = 0 soldiers
2pop= 1000
3pop= 1000
4pop= 2000
5pop= 2000
6pop= 3000 and so on.

Factor 2- Technologies.
2000 soldiers – Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry
4000 soldiers- Wheel, Alphabet, Astronomy, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction, Steel, Radio, Satellites
5000 soldiers- Composites, Stealth
6000 soldiers- Mathematics, Chemistry, Combustion, Archery
8000 soldiers- Guilds, Fission, Flight, Bronze Working, Machinery, Assembly Line
10000 soldiers- Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Artillery, Industrialism, Rocketry, Advanced Flight, Laser
12000 soldiers- Gunpowder, Rifling, Military Science

Factor 3- City Improvement/Wonders.
1000 soldiers- Trading Post, Shale Plant, Totem Pole
2000 soldiers- Walls, Dry Dock, Forge, Factory, Stable, Mint, Assembly Plant, Industrial Park, Levee, Dike
3000 soldiers- Dun, Barracks, Ikhanda, Citadel
4000 soldiers- Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works, Ger, Statue of Zeus
6000 soldiers- Military Acadamy
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point
10000 soldiers- Great Wall, Cristor Redentor, Moai Statues

Factor 4- Units.
2000 soldiers – Warrior, Quechua, Galley
3000 soldiers – Archer, Trireme, Caravel, Carrack
4000 soldiers – Spearman, Impi, Holkan, Skirmisher, Bowman, Chariot, War Chariot, Immortal, Galleon, Airship
5000 soldiers – Catapult, Hwacha
6000 soldiers – Swordsman, Juguar Warrior, Gallic Warrior, Axeman, Dog Soldier, Phalanx, Vulture, Pikeman, Landsknecht, Longbowman, Horse Archer, Numidian Cavalry, Keslik, East Indiaman, Privateer, Guided Missle
7000 soldiers – Cho-Ko-Nu, Crossbow
8000 soldiers – Praetorian, War Elephant, Ballista Elephant, trebuchet, Frigate
9000 soldiers – Maceman, Samurai, Musketman, Musketeer, Janissary, Oromo Warrior
10000 soldiers – Berserker, knight, Camel Archer, Ship of the Line
12000 soldiers – Grenadier, Cataphract, Cuirassier, Conquistador, Cannon, Ironclad, Fighter
14000 soldiers – Missile Cruiser, Rifleman, Redcoat, Anti Tank, Machine Gun
15000 soldiers – Cossack, Cavalry
16000 soldiers – Transport, Carrier, Bomber
18000 soldiers – SAM Infantry, Artillary
20000 soldiers – Infantry, Stealth Bomber
22000 soldiers – Mobile SAM
24000 soldiers – Jet Fighter
26000 soldiers – Gunship, Mobile Artillary
28000 soldiers – Marine, Navy SEAL, Submarine
30000 soldiers – Paratrooper, Tank, Panzer, Destroyer, Stealth Destroyer, Attack Submarine, Tactical Nuke
32000 soldiers – Mechanized Infantry
40000 soldiers – Modern Armour, Battleship, ICBM

If Willem had 18000 on T0 that could for example be 4 archers, hunting and the wheel.

Btw. this is the reason why I think some EP on Shaka to see his demographics could be beneficial. If you see the power graph it is possible to figure out pretty accurately what units he has.

The unit health bars tell you how strong the most powerful unit on the map is. Looking at T0, it seems there's nothing stronger than archers out there. (Only tells about land units. There might still be ironclads or stealth destroyers in the waters.)
 
Then to the scoreboard...

Here's how score is calculated:
Spoiler :
Hover over our score and you will see some numbers for population, land, technology and wonders. Every line has some numbers in the form (X/Y) at the end. X is your amount and Y is the supposed maximum for the map (which can be exceeded).

How the X value is calculated:

Population is our total amount of population points.

Land equals the amount of land tiles that have been within our borders at least 20 turns, there's a delay here.

Technologies give 1 per Ancient tech, 2 per Classical, 3 per Medieval, ..... 7 per future as Chris said. But note that when translated to actual score this is closer to 6 per Ancient, 12 per Classical and so on.

Wonders is 5 points/per wonder owned. You also get 5 for palace and national wonders. Shrines count, but academies or other special buildings that can be built in multiple cities don't.

To get the real score for each category, which is shown at the start of the line, do the following calculations, always rounding down:

Population: X/Y*5000
Land: X/Y*2000
Technologies: X/Y*2000
Wonders: X/Y*1000


Extraction of some mostly useless data from Shaka's score:
Spoiler :
On this particular map the maximum (Y-value) for pop is 1054 and for land it is 1133. Y-values for Tech and Wonders are 334 and 310, as always in unmodded BTS.

The actual scores you get for pop, landtiles and techs are:

Population 1 2 3
Score 4 9 14

Landtiles 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Score 3 5 7 8 10 12 14 15 17 19 21 22 24 26 28 30 31 33 35 37

Techs 4 5 6 7
Score 23 29 35 41
(I'm assuming only ancient techs so far)

With a palace and no other wonders, everyone will have 16 points from Wonders at this stage of the game.

On T23, when we meet Shaka, he has only 65 points. The land tiles in his outer ring doesn't count yet, because he hasn't owned them 20 turns. The score for them comes in on T24. Reduce 16 points for palace and we know his total score for pop land and techs is 49. His pop must be between 1 and 3 (known from demographics and victory screen) and he must have between 2 and 9 land tiles.

The possible combinations to make 49 points are:
35-4-10 (6 techs, 1 pop, 6 land)
35-9-5 (6 techs, 2 pop, 3 land)
23-14-12 (4 techs, 3 pop, 7 land)
23-9-15 (4 techs, 2 pop, 9 land)

On T24 his score went up to 81. This increase includes the added land from 2nd ring, but can also include growth or a researched tech. In demos we can see that minimum population goes up to 2, so his pop must be either 2 or 3. Victory screen shows his land owned as 1%, which means he owns a minimum of 12 land tiles and his land must between 12 and 21.

Reducing 16 points for palace, his land, pop and tech now must add up to 65. The possible combinations that could be follow ups to his T23 score are:

T23:
35-4-10 (6 techs, 1 pop, 6 land)
-> T24:
35-9-21 (6 techs, 2 pop, 12 land)

T23:
35-9-5 (6 techs, 2 pop, 3 land)
-> T24:
35-9-21 (6 techs, 2 pop, 12 land)

T23:
23-14-12 (4 techs, 3 pop, 7 land)
-> T24:
23-14-28 (4 techs, 3 pop, 16 land)
29-14-22 (5 techs, 3 pop, 13 land)

T23:
23-9-15 (4 techs, 2 pop, 9 land)
-> T24:
23-9-33 (4 techs, 2 pop, 19 land)
23-14-28 (4 techs, 3 pop, 16 land)


Normally on immortal Shaka would start with 3 techs, so I find it highly unlikely that he has only 4 techs by T23. This means that unless he has been crippled by the game designer, on T24 he has 6 ancient techs, his capital is size 2 and he has 12 land tiles in his BFC. Inner ring has either 3 or 6 land tiles. The low pop would be explained by the fact that he has built a settler, he settles T25.

If he teched his 5th tech on T24 (this means he must have gone for BW, though I still think he would have got it earlier), he could have size 3 capital, 7 land tiles in inner ring and 13 land tiles in BFC.

When he settles 2nd city on T25 his score goes up to 86, because of one added population point. No more additions to score during my set until T28, which makes those 4 tech alternatives even more unlikely. If he has only 4 techs still by T28, then he most likely started with mining and went straight for BW->IW, which means we are in trouble...

If Chris can tell how his score has developed turn by turn, I might be able to figure out more, like if he indeed has been researching IW as 2nd tech.

In any case, us having higher score that Willem and Shaka is due to higher population.
 
Barbs won't enter borders until the civilizations has an average of >3 cities.
Seriously? Awesome! That changes my whole early game strategy! To make sure I am clear, in this game, they won't enter borders for any civ until the total (non-barbarian) city count for the whole world is 31 or greater, right?

Having a test game is great, please don't think I disapprove of your work, I am not really sure how to replicate it myself. I hope you continue to update it over the next few months as you have time, and yes, we will all need to remind each other (I assume) to mind the differences between them.

I had no idea that unit health bars did that... can I get a reference so I can learn how to do it myself, or is it just easier to explain here?

And the score explanation! Now score is no longer useless! I am stoked! I really had no idea of any of that.
 
Here's the more accurate info on barb behaviour: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7461350&postcount=6

Barbs can enter our borders on this map if they can pillage an improvement on the next turn when there is a total of 21 cities on the map. They can enter our borders to attack cities when there is a total of 31 cities on the map.

But, if they can attack a unit (kill a worker), they will enter borders regardles of how many cities there are. However, if I recall correctly there is a bias in barb movement to not move next to our borders until the requirement is filled to start attacking cities, so that archer shouldn't be moving next to our borders to grab the worker. Unless we lure him there with another unit he can attack. So whatever we do, if there is a barb unit 2 tiles from our border, don't put a warrior in between! And if he happens to be 1 tile from the 2nd gems when borders pop, don't move worker there! He will move away on the next turn. If fore some reason he does move next to our worker, get out of there immediately! Probably safest to stop the worker every turn so he can't auto-execute his move next turn.

This makes warrior move NE even better. Lure the archer away from our borders.

About the health bar, the length of the health bar is proportional to the strength of the strongest unit on the map. The best way to see how this works is by worldbuildering in different units in the test game and see how the length of the healthbars change. On T0 the health bar on our scout is as long in the test game as in the real game, meaning there are no units stronger than archers around.

This also means Mansa isn't around, because his skirmishers are strength 4.
 
OK, we have animal husbandry, there are horses in the far west, and it's time to design my second mini turnset. Everything went exactly according to plan.

Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2880 BC to 2520 BC:

Turn 28, 2880 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 28, 2880 BC: Pericles adopts Slavery!
Turn 28, 2880 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 30, 2800 BC: Hjartet has been founded.

Turn 34, 2640 BC: The borders of Hjartet have expanded!

Turn 35, 2600 BC: Kärlekshamn can hurry Settler for 2⇴ with 26ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 15 turns.

Turn 36, 2560 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!


BUFFY Log
Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 28/500 (2880 BC) [25-Jan-2015 19:00:13]
100% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 0 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Pericles(Greece) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 29/500 (2840 BC) [25-Jan-2015 19:00:14]
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 30/500 (2800 BC) [25-Jan-2015 19:01:37]
Athens founded
Hjartet begins: Warrior (8 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 13 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Kärlekshamn
Kärlekshamn finishes: Worker
Hjartet finishes: Warrior

Turn 31/500 (2760 BC) [25-Jan-2015 19:03:44]
Kärlekshamn begins: Work Boat (5 turns)
Hjartet begins: Warrior (15 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 13 per turn, 13 in the bank

After End Turn:
Kärlekshamn grows to size 4
Kärlekshamn finishes: Work Boat

Turn 32/500 (2720 BC) [25-Jan-2015 19:05:25]
Kärlekshamn begins: Settler (9 turns)
100% Research: 17 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 26 in the bank

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 33/500 (2680 BC) [26-Jan-2015 07:07:04]
100% Research: 17 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 23 in the bank

After End Turn:
Hjartet grows to size 2

Turn 34/500 (2640 BC) [26-Jan-2015 07:07:06]
A Mine was built near Hjartet
100% Research: 23 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 20 in the bank

After End Turn:
Hjartet's borders expand

Turn 35/500 (2600 BC) [26-Jan-2015 07:09:32]
100% Research: 23 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 17 in the bank

Turn 36/500 (2560 BC) [26-Jan-2015 07:11:04]
100% Research: 23 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 14 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Animal Husbandry
Hjartet finishes: Warrior

Turn 37/500 (2520 BC) [26-Jan-2015 07:12:56]
Research begun: Archery (3 Turns)
Hjartet begins: Work Boat (15 turns)


Map of the known world, with horses way off in the southwest
Spoiler :
2520bc_real_map.png


Current demographics
Spoiler :
2520bc_demo.png


I have a lot of demographic screenshots, but I know I missed one or two turns, and sadly they don't have dates visible! So if you want the turn by turn demographics, you'll have to download and open my manual saves here: http://gesserit.net/SGOTM21/saves. The manual saves are NOT PAUSED. Please use caution.
 
I'm off to work, so no time to write a draft PPP. Things to decide:

Research - give up on the horses and grab archery for defence, or go with sailing for trade routes and plant a horse city on the coast? If we're going for The Great Lighthouse, maybe the sailing route is best. We have a chop about to go into the capital.

Scouting - the warrior in the northeast is on a peninsula. Plains hill island is, in fact, an island. Finish scouting the peninsula, or turn around? I suspect the barbarian archer is long gone - he probably ran into the Zulu scout.

City builds - Hjartet just finished warrior 4 and has a workboat in the queue as a placeholder. What should it build? What should K build after it finishes the settler? Another settler for horse town? Both cities get 20 hammer chops next turn.

Espionage - with 20 more EPs, we could see Willem's research. But it wouldn't be too expensive to switch and get vision of Shaka's demographics.
 
Some ideas:

Tested a few games with warrior only defence. Being on a penisula warriors seems to be enough but maybe some other people should test this.

Research:
Without archery what about TW-pottery-writing-sailing-masony.

With this path K builded a library and runned 2 scientist plus 3 riverside cottages, the academy was up at t70 and when alpha was in we had a good tech led. TGL was built in cow city at t80 so it still a relativly safe date.
 
We could have horses without the wheel, by building on the river, but the city would really, really suck. No food. Even with the wheel, if we don't find more food, it's always going to be a problem child city.
 
I'm off to work, so no time to write a draft PPP. Things to decide:

Research - give up on the horses and grab archery for defence, or go with sailing for trade routes and plant a horse city on the coast? If we're going for The Great Lighthouse, maybe the sailing route is best. We have a chop about to go into the capital.

Scouting - the warrior in the northeast is on a peninsula. Plains hill island is, in fact, an island. Finish scouting the peninsula, or turn around? I suspect the barbarian archer is long gone - he probably ran into the Zulu scout.

City builds - Hjartet just finished warrior 4 and has a workboat in the queue as a placeholder. What should it build? What should K build after it finishes the settler? Another settler for horse town? Both cities get 20 hammer chops next turn.

Espionage - with 20 more EPs, we could see Willem's research. But it wouldn't be too expensive to switch and get vision of Shaka's demographics.

Some ideas:

Tested a few games with warrior only defence. Being on a penisula warriors seems to be enough but maybe some other people should test this.

Research:
Without archery what about TW-pottery-writing-sailing-masony.

With this path K builded a library and runned 2 scientist plus 3 riverside cottages, the academy was up at t70 and when alpha was in we had a good tech led. TGL was built in cow city at t80 so it still a relativly safe date.

Good work Chris!:goodjob: Nice teamwork, too... ecawilson, your comments are very useful, keep it up! And et & Zhary, nice input. :king: I guess I'm the only one who didn't contribute much to the set.

I think the settle plan for city next to cow is still the best. If so, we should probably get archery as the barb archers will start attacking almost as soon as we get city 3 founded, most likely. Put a couple hammers into an archer or two to have in queue for emergency whips, but warriors are still the preferred mp unit.

sailing>archery or archery>sailing... probably the former is better. All could change if we have seafood accessible by horse city, or copper/horse on the peninsula, so scout a bit more is ideal. Seeing willems research at this stage is not so important, since we cannot affect it in any way, and we need what we need before alpnabet. So shaka's demos seems like a better invest right now.

City 4 to get horse will slow us down more than archery, I think. Archery is cheap because all AI start with it. Meet some more it gets cheaper. Besides, if shaka gets impis in our face, horses does us no good at all.

If we go city4 and skip archery, I like Zhary's tech approach. We'll need to do something to keep economy strong, and pottery/writing lets us do that. Could risk the GLH, since some other priorities are sure to evolve in the next few turns.

We do not need to finish the forest chop if we want to save it for a GLH or something else.

I would consider a second exploration workboat in K... we'll use it to collect seafood eventually.

I think this should probably be thought thru carefully before proceeding, because strategic choices right now are critical for the competition.
 
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