SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

I'd also like to try to find Izzy with our Trireme, which is a bit of a risk for Island D, but we can make peace with Willem upon discovering one of her cities and trade routes would be worth +7CPT. I didn't see any barb Galleys during my set.

Louis is almost done with Monarchy and will trade this + Meditation to Mansa for something bigger.

One of Louis' cities is almost done with a wonder.

Doshin said:

I'd also like to try to find Izzy with our Trireme, which is a bit of a risk for Island D, but we can make peace with Willem upon discovering one of her cities and trade routes would be worth +7CPT. I didn't see any barb Galleys during my set.

Click to expand...

We could beg map from Louis to reveal Izzy's culture.

True. If the map looks expensive (look to see how much ), let's trade an outdated tech instead.

We could easily reach Friendly relations with Louis while we are out of a religion.

PPP to T133

Tech: Paper->pause at Edu, Any condition that we want to research Machinery? If Mansa research Machinery, what should we research as CS alone is not enough to trade? Compass?

Diplomacy: Sign peace with William after learning Paper to get his map, beg map from Louis. Shall we close border with Shaka at some point if his SOD is using our road network to reach the barbarian city.

City build:

Ams: Culture,cata->whip->2 more catas with chops
Hagues: Culture,Pha->Culture,whip Pha->Pha
Sparta, Knossos, Myc, and Phar will also produce military units
Athens: 1 cata, 1 galley, and TC
Thebes: whip settler->WB->grows on Forge
Corinth: Archer->archer
Argos: Settler->grows on Forge->starts a settler @size7 and whip. Depends on the map from William, if north desert island has good spots, send this settler there, otherwise, this settler will be shipped to south island with the galley bridge.
Horse: WB->LH->WB Depends on where the settler from Argos goes, it might need to whip the WB for the last south island city.
Iron city: galley->whip @size3->WB if the settler from Argos goes to north, otherwise, another galley.
The eastern south island will produce a worker as suggested by Doshin.


War: Assemble 2 stacks of ~15 units, each stack will contain 5~6 catas + 3~4 swords + 2~3 Phalanx + 2 Spears

We should be able to DOW ~T114.





The test file was not identical as the real game, some of the worker micro were changed. Not a big deal as what I want to see is the build of TC and military production and movement.

There's a bug in the test, as you can see from the screenshot, Phar has been stuck @size1 22/22 F and can never grow.

Mansa should be able to trade for our Paper too because he has Theocracy.


I'd like for us to cancel our gems to Elizabeth for 1 per turn and trade gems to Mao for rice.

Can Amsterdam build a barracks 1st?
5xp catapults are much stronger than 2xp ones.

Everything else seems good.
Are we going to bulb with our Great Scientist, or are we going to make an Academy?

Paper + CS or Music is too much for Machinery. Mansa's tech rate will be stronger than us in the next 30 turns while we are busy at war and infrastructures. We can't trade away Edu, therefore we are not abundant of trade baits.

OK for the rice trade.

Amsterdam is a major GP farm, so I don't want to whip too much and produce many military units here. 3 catas are all and it will start on infrastructures after. As I said before, all Shaka's cities have wall, it's inefficient to bombard, so I'd like attack with catas directly. Level 3 catas are not much better than level 2 catas against units behind the wall.

Doshin and I discussed about the usage of GS some days ago.

Originally Posted by Doshin
Do you still think that an Education bulb is stronger than an ~T110 Academy?

I do, but bulbs are only worthwhile if the tech help us to accomplish some goal. We'll switch into infrastructure mode in ~12 turns, right? And we will have enough cities ready to build Universities?

Since we have no religious spread, no Forges, no Stone, and only 3 Libraries, I wanted to ask your thoughts.

My reply:
This is a hard question.

The bulb not only let us reach Edu sooner, but also reach other techs probably Astronomy earlier. T110 Academy might return more beakers than a GS could bulb, but how much more? When capital grows all the grassland tiles to villages, it might generate ~100C with Bureaucracy bonus, academy could produce 50bpt with 100% slider. The question is how many turns that we could run 100% slider and the average of commerce that capital might produce during these turn. 50 turns = 2000~2500 beakers which is probably close to the value of bulbing Edu.

Either way won't be too much different. Bulbing might be a little better.

Edit: I'd save the GS for a few turns until we capture 2 of Shaka's cities.

I can't think of anything else to add other than we might want libraries in Thebes (it has fur) and Knossos (it has gems) eventually.

Good luck Duckweed.

Hopefully the maps we get are very informative.

Doshin said:

...
We could easily reach Friendly relations with Louis while we are out of a religion.

Click to expand...

Ya, Hereditary Rule is his favorite civic.
We will eventually become Friendly with Louis if we don't adopt a religion.

Hopefully Louis settles that 2nd stone on the desert island north of his empire and trades it to us!

Duckweed said:

There's a bug in the test, as you can see from the screenshot, Phar has been stuck @size1 22/22 F and can never grow.

Click to expand...

See post #933. It is a very powerful and flexible trick (exchanged +5H –5H in Iron City, +3F –3H -1C in Horse City, added +1F in Thebes and +1F in Pharsalos during my last set), especially when capturing cities with food that lack Granaries.

----

I'm ok to make the Rice trade, but it has been available for a few turns now (whenever we traded for Monarchy) and Amsterdam's border pop gets +2 . I also think Elizabeth will have Corn to trade next turn and some AI are beginning to get more money/resources from Currency/Calendar.

Compared to the test:

Worker movement: Forests around Horse City and Pharsalos were chopped in a different order in the test. The real game management should be more flexible. A Barb Archer will snipe our Workers if they are undefended and move next to the barb city.

Knossos has a few more and a bit less than in the real game (from working Gems > Grass Forest).

-----

I think Machinery is an easy trade, if we can wait that long for Windmills and Macemen. Would you be interested in Philosophy, if Mansa does not grab this himself?

Looking at the test now.

edit:

Thebes: Library ---> Forge, if we are running the slider. This (I think) only costs 5H (base) more than Forge ---> Library.

Horse City: units > Lighthouse. A LH Whale is no better than a Grass river farm, while a LH costs 60H (10 Worker turns) and the farm costs 0H + 4 Worker turns. note: compare Worker positions in the real game, which are more flexible than the test.

Whales City: start an Odeon on T113.

Ephesus/Fish Island D: start the Worker immediately and, at 8 culture, build Culture with a queued Worker. The city will grow +5F and put +5H in the Worker. Continue to build the Worker to 45H, then grow to size 2 and whip. My PPP was only the generic model and none of this is tested.

Fish Island A (not settled): WB should be in place. This would give +3FPT @size 1, while the LH in Horse City gives +1FPT @ size 3.

Corinth has a Library.

Kaitzilla said:

I can't think of anything else to add other than we might want libraries in Thebes (it has fur) and Knossos (it has gems) eventually.

Click to expand...

Knossos has to work on military units for the moment, Thebes might need to whip another settler if there are more fish island to the east.

But, this reminds me that I could switch the archer build in Corinth to lib, this city has 2 gems.

Corinth already has Lib as Doshin reminded.

Doshin said:

edit:

Thebes: Library ---> Forge, if we are running the slider. This (I think) only costs 5H (base) more than Forge ---> Library.

Not only 5H, but 15H if we 2 pop whip Lib, plus that we might need to whip a settler here to settle more fish island.

Horse City: units > Lighthouse. A LH Whale is no better than a Grass river farm, while a LH costs 60H (10 Worker turns) and the farm costs 0H + 4 Worker turns.

With TC, whale tile is better. Moreover, as you can see, unless we skip the Fur improvement, we can't complete the farm before growing to size 3. We have to trade Fur to Mansa for the copper.

Whales City: start an Odeon on T113.

Yep, if there's no more happy resource from trade.

Ephesus/Fish Island D: start the Worker immediately and, at 8 culture, build Culture with a queued Worker. The city will grow +5F and put +5H in the Worker. Continue to build the Worker to 45H, then grow to size 2 and whip. My PPP was only the generic model.

I'll follow. but how much difference of the food bar when the granary is done in both way.

Fish Island A (not settled): WB should be in place. This would give +3FPT @size 1, while the LH in Horse City gives +1FPT @ size 3.

Corinth has a Library.

Click to expand...

As I explained in the PPP, I'll whip the WB in Horse city if the settler from Argos is sent to settle the island. This can be decided after we have the map from William.

Doshin said:

See post #933. It is a very powerful and flexible trick (exchanged +5H –5H in Iron City, +3F –3H -1C in Horse City, added +1F in Thebes and +1F in Pharsalos during my last set), especially when capturing cities with food that lack Granaries.
...

Click to expand...

This is dark wizardry!



How do you get 22/22 or 24/24 in a city without growing to the next population?

I have never noticed that Avoided Growth button is turned on in that city.

Ok to Forge in Thebes.

Duckweed said:

With TC, whale tile is better. Moreover, as you can see, unless we skip the Fur improvement, we can't complete the farm before growing to size 3. We have to trade Fur to Mansa for the copper.

Click to expand...

Do we need the +1 Fur for those 4 turns? Could you send the promoted Phalanx elsewhere? Is a LH better than an earlier, unpromoted Catapult? If you think so, then ok.

Duckweed said:

I'll follow. but how much difference of the food bar when the granary is done in both way.

Click to expand...

If we must work an unimproved Fish for one turn, the loss is either –3H (build Worker) or –3F (build Granary).

Building a Worker, the improved city generates 6HPT. Growing, the improved city generates 5FPT and 1HPT.


So building a Worker immediately gains +3F and saves a turn of growth. The ultimate difference is +2F –3H +3C.

If you build Culture with a Worker queued, the gain is +5F, which will save a second turn of growth.

Overall difference from both actions would be +7F +6C –4H, I suppose, which means whipping a Lighthouse 1–2 turns sooner for another +2/+4F and more commerce, etc.

Duckweed said:

I'll whip the WB in Horse city if the settler from Argos is sent to settle the island.

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about whether we should send one Settler towards The Hague, if there is not a suitable candidate to produce a Settler for Deer/Cow/Gems.

If Shaka doesn't target a barb city, I don't know if we could use a temporary gift city to Willem to move Shaka's stack. I don't think we can, which is why I didn't suggest it before.

----

Kaitzilla said:

This is dark wizardry!

How do you get 22/22 or 24/24 in a city without growing to the next population?

Click to expand...

As Duckweed says, turn the city governor's "Avoid Growth" option on for one turn. Perhaps the least used button in all of civ.

If Granary OF is not optimized and there is no good second tile to grow onto (or you want more food) you can fill the Granary's store for an additional turn. The food total needs to be almost exact (22/22F or 24/24F, etc.).

Remember to turn it off, or the city will be stuck at size 1 forever.

Doshin said:

Do we need the +1 Fur for those 4 turns? Could you send the promoted Phalanx elsewhere? Is a LH better than an earlier, unpromoted Catapult? If you think so, then ok.

As you noticed, Whale city will be unhappy @T113 without the Fur. Actually I'd probably send at least a Phalanx+Spear to the Horse site for defense as Shaka's SOD is going to move there. We are lacking catas to start the war so we could spare some units there.

If we must work an unimproved Fish for one turn, the loss is either –3H (build Worker) or –3F (build Granary).

Building a Worker, the improved city generates 6HPT. Growing, the improved city generates 5FPT and 1HPT.

5F * 5 = 25/22F
After the whip, 3F remain.
5F * 4 = 23/22F​

So building a Worker immediately gains +3F and saves a turn of growth. The ultimate difference is +2F –3H +3C.

If you build Culture with a Worker queued, the gain is +5F, which will save a second turn of growth.

Not true, the culture bug only works 1 turn when the border pops, so it's basically just a gain of 1 culture and 1H to granary in the same time. We can't build Culture with a Worker queued @T5, otherwise the city will grow to size 2 while the hammers to worker is not enough.

Overall difference from both actions would be +7F +6C –4H, I suppose, which means whipping a Lighthouse 1–2 turns sooner for another +2/+4F and more commerce, etc.

My intuition is that starting a worker immediately will be slightly better, but won't be that much. I usually will just take other's thought when I feel right and don't bother to test further.

I've been thinking about whether we should send one Settler towards The Hague, if there is not a suitable candidate to produce a Settler for Deer/Cow/Gems.

The site is not good during the war as we need to put defense there. Shaka's units could attack the site from 3 cities. Moreover, we don't have workers ready to improve or unsafe while 3 workers in that areas are busy at chopping and roading.

If Shaka doesn't target a barb city, I don't know if we could use a temporary gift city to Willem to move Shaka's stack. I don't think we can, which is why I didn't suggest it before.

Click to expand...

In that case, I'll adjust the stack composition, assemble a major stack for the city with his major SOD. Our stack is strong enough to deal with any surprising move.

Duckweed said:

Not true, the culture bug only works 1 turn when the border pops, so it's basically just a gain of 1 culture and 1H to granary in the same time. We can't build Culture with a Worker queued @T5, otherwise the city will grow to size 2 while the hammers to worker is not enough.

Click to expand...

Nope:

Doshin said:

T0: 0F 0H
T1: 5F 1H
T2: 10F 2H
T3: 15F 3H

T4: 6H

T5: 20F 3H
12H

T6: 18H
T7: 24H

....

T5 is the key: we can grow and build a Worker on the same turn. 5 free food from the culture bug! I used this trick for the Settler in Thebes.

Click to expand...

Doshin said:

Ephesus/Fish Island D: start the Worker immediately and, at 8 culture, build Culture with a queued Worker. The city will grow +5F and put +6H in the Worker.

Click to expand...

Nevermind, I'm dumb >.<

...

Would you guys say the game is now mainly a race to Sid's Sushi?

I thought that the city won't grow while queuing the worker. This is so powerful.

^^^ ya, it halves the minimum number of turns a city needs to stop growing in order to build a Worker or Settler. It would be broken if Music came earlier.

Kaitzilla said:

Would you guys say the game is now mainly a race to Sid's Sushi?

Click to expand...

I haven't calculated, but I don't think so. The payback time for corps is quite short in this game. Executives cost 100H + some to spread, neither Biology nor Medicine are required techs, Corporation obsoletes the GLH, and founding Sushi burns a Great Merchant.

The short-term costs are very high. If this were a Space game, I think we'd be racing Lib Biology or Medicine. As it is, we don't need to tech beyond Industrialism.

I don't know if a hidden objective would change our thinking.

Pause @T110

Updated maps

England, there's a great spot available in our north. Therefore, I'll send the settler from Argos north instead of south, and will produce a WB from Phar with OF from cata whip.



China. I took Doshin's comment and delayed the rice trade, unfortunately Mao trade rice to Toku next turn. Sorry for the rice trade, but we won't be short of health for while with the Corn from Liz. Our scouting WB also met Cathy's WB, her location should be in the NW corner of the map.



France



Mali, Izzy shares the same continent with Mansa, as you can see her culture west of the incense.



New Fish island



Shaka's 1st HA is close to the barbarian city, his major SOD is also moving toward that direction.



As you can see that Mansa started Phi last turn (I don't have Kaitzilla's luck on controlling his tech choice, Mansa's last tech is Monarchy and he completed it in 2 turns). Shall we start Machinery? I'm undecided, I'd like to hear your reasons.

Willem finally got his metal.

Could you show the tech trade screen?