American Muslims fear a new wave of Islamophobia

Sommerswerd · Sep 27, 2015

jackelgull said:
Anyone who believes Islam is contained within one book obviously knows little about Islam.

First, is Islam a way of life or not?

Second, sure there are some Muslims (and Christians) that do not look at the book as the sole (or primary) source of doctrine. But that is more a reflection of the character of their particular denomination, age being a highly significant factor. As a religion ages, it incorporates all kinds of new traditions, doctrines, rituals, etc.

Which is why a denomination like Catholicism for example, as you say, relies on the Pope's decrees etc... its old and stuff gets tacked on to the religion over time... While a denomination like the Jehovah's Witnesses, which is very young (in religious terms) pretty much sticks to the text of the Bible and the various interpretations that they publish. Some religions that you would describe as "bare bones" are intentionally so, and regard the whole "beautiful, living, breathing tapestry of Papal decrees, apocrypha etc" as nothing less than utter heresy and Satanic-influenced defilement of true faith.

If your point is that you personally embrace the "living breathing" thing, fine, but if you're trying to argue that either Christianity or Islam as a whole embrace the idea, I have to disagree, just based on my actual experience with denominations of both that do not.

caketastydelish · Sep 27, 2015

daft said:
(The Sacred Black Stone of Mecca!-do your research and figure out where it must have came from, their whole religion is based on a bunch of lies, and all those pilgrims trampling themselves over to get there, my goodness, please forbid this Earth from these mindless hordes overtaking the true enlightenment of the West), please, before it' too late...
(it's like Orcs overtaking Middle Earth!)

orcs: muslims
men of the west: christians
elves: jews
hobbits: buddhists
dwarfs: atheists
goblins: hindus

Is that right?

MagisterCultuum · Sep 28, 2015

caketastydelish said:
orcs: muslims
men of the west: christians
elves: jews
hobbits: buddhists
dwarfs: atheists
goblins: hindus

Is that right?

No, that is not right.

Tolkien himself was quite explicit that the Dwarves represented the Jews.

(Tolkien usually protested against any such comparisons between the races in his novels and any real world peoples, but he came right out and admitted that the Dwarves were obviously modeled on Ashkenazi Jews.)

If you don't find the long beards and love of gold stereotypical enough, then remember that they were a persecuted minority who longed to go back East and reclaim their ancestral homeland of Mount ~~Zion~~ Erebor. Even their beliefs about the reincarnation of their leaders were based on the Jewish tradition of Gilgul.

caketastydelish · Sep 28, 2015

Source?

Anyway, I thought it was extremely obvious I was joking. I don't actually think any of that.

Formaldehyde · Sep 28, 2015

jackelgull said:
Anyone who believes Islam is contained within one book obviously knows little about Islam. For example, if you're a Muslim from the Indian subcontinent, and belong to a sufficiently religious family, you probably own the fazail e amaal, which is a book of hadith collected and interpreted by this Indian Islamic theologian, and often has as much influence as the Quran. Why? Because the Quran doesn't contain everything. In fact, in a strict reading of the Quran, only three of the five daily prayers are mentioned. Something similar can be said of Christianity. Christianity isn't just the Bible and Jesus. It is a living breathing tapestry made of the Pope's orders, the various apocrypha, the books by theologians who study the subject in depth. To rely strictly on the Holy book is like keeping a car with only the engine, wheels, and driver's seat, steering wheel, accelerator and brake. Sure you have the essentials, but you miss much of the beauty of the product. It's reducing these religions just to their bare bone essentials.

That is just it. Those who make blatantly obvious Islamophobic statements while claiming that Islam must be a "religion of violence" refuse to see any nuance at all, while insisting there can't possibly be any "beauty of the product". This is despite the overwhelming majority of them believing in the very same god as Muslims themselves in myriad different ways from other Christians and Jews.

Many of them even claim to be experts on the topic because they have read the Quran in English, or some other similar language, while completely ignoring all the religious scholars and practitioners of Islam who categorically state they really know little or nothing at all about this religion.

Meanwhile, the rampant Islamophobia from all this reprehensible propaganda is victimizing even more completely peaceful Muslims in the US and Europe. This is really no different than the rampant antisemitism which used to exist in these same countries before the Roman Catholic Church finally stood up against passion plays in the 60s creating an impetus strong enough to finally rein it in.

Speaking of which, I wonder why the Pope doesn't vehemently stand up in opposition to all this...

Tahuti · Sep 28, 2015

MagisterCultuum said:
No, that is not right.

Tolkien himself was quite explicit that the Dwarves represented the Jews.

(Tolkien usually protested against any such comparisons between the races in his novels and any real world peoples, but he came right out and admitted that the Dwarves were obviously modeled on Ashkenazi Jews.)

If you don't find the long beards and love of gold stereotypical enough, then remember that they were a persecuted minority who longed to go back East and reclaim their ancestral homeland of Mount ~~Zion~~ Erebor. Even their beliefs about the reincarnation of their leaders were based on the Jewish tradition of Gilgul.

The Elves of Dragon Age neatly corresponded to Jews. Interestingly, the Dwarfs from that universe had a religious philosophy closely representing Spinozism.

warpus · Sep 28, 2015

Clones: Oppressive white heterosexual males
Jedis: Feminists
Darth Vader: Oprah?

Formaldehyde · Sep 28, 2015

Far-right Lebanese-American hatemongering author says that there is "no chance" for Muslim-Americans to "blend in", ironically unlike she obviously has.

Link to video.

“Because this is what they are being told in mosques across the United States,” Gabriel responded, claiming that American mosques are “instructing their people not to shake hands on Christmas or Easter or wish the Americans a happy holiday.”

“Is there any chance that the Muslim community will ever turn it around?” Lynch asked.

“No,” Gabriel responded, “there is no chance, we are seeing a reverse, actually, instead of a blending in, instead of assimilation.”

The talking head is no better;

We are all afraid of the lone wolf or the radical Islamist taking over this country at this point.

Newly elected Republican congressman in Georgia thinks the First Amendment doesn't apply to Muslims

Jody Hice, a Baptist minister and talk-radio host, is running for Congress in Georgia’s 10th Congressional District as a stern defender of the First Amendment and religious freedom. But that freedom does not apply to those of the Muslim faith.

“Although Islam has a religious component, it is much more than a simple religious ideology,” Hice wrote in his 2012 book. “It is a complete geo-political structure and, as such, does not deserve First Amendment protection.”

Hice believes that the Muslim Brotherhood is infiltrating the United States, with the intent to impose Sharia law on all of us. He also believes that it’s fine for women to seek political office, at least if certain conditions are met. “If the woman’s within the authority of her husband, I don’t see a problem,” he told the Athens Banner-Herald in 2004.

Given all that, it will not surprise you to learn that Hice would eagerly vote to impeach President Barack Obama. He also believes that gay people are engaged in a plot to convert our young people to homosexuality, and that “homosexuals have a right to be married; they just don’t have the right to marry each other.”

He had to defeat other reactionary loons to become the representative:

Republican voters in the 11th Congressional District, which stretches from Buckhead up I-75 to Adairsville, also face a runoff. Not surprisingly, both Bob Barr and Barry Loudermilk have called for impeachment proceedings against Obama. Barr, who helped lead the disastrous impeachment of President Bill Clinton, is particularly intent on charging once more into the impeachment breach.

As a former congressman, Barr is somewhat of a known quantity, even if his core beliefs seem to shift as expediency demands. The same cannot be said of Loudermilk, a nine-year veteran of the Georgia Legislature and the likely front-runner in the race.

Loudermilk is an eager member of the Glenn Beck wing of the GOP. He is also an apostle of faux historian David Barton, who preaches that the U.S. Constitution is a document intended to create a conservative Christian government. Like Hice, they reject the notion of a separation between Christianity and state, and argue that the First Amendment was intended only to keep government from favoring one particular Christian denomination.

In their world view, Obama is anti-Christian and pro-Islamic, and they hint at darker motives.

“Eight days before the (2008) election, Barack Obama stated that ‘we’re eight days away from fundamentally altering government in America’,” Loudermilk says. “The 22nd grievance in the Declaration of Independence says, ‘The King has fundamentally altered our forms of government.’ I mean, he (Obama) was basically saying, ‘I’m going to take you back to the tyranny’” that the Founders rejected.

Coming soon, to a Congress near you.

abradley · Sep 28, 2015

Formaldehyde said:
{Snip}

I agree with Gabriel that Islam isn't capable of working with Liberal Democracy.

That said , as I've posted, have live with and around Muslims and found them to be good people, my hope is that American Islam will be will be Liberalized over time.

One spot I liked and wouldn't mind living there was Abha, Saudia Arabia. If your more adventurous try Najran, near the Yeman border, when I was there there were tribesmen with their Curved daggers eyeing westerners, not a comfortable feeling especially if all you've got is your nail clipper and brief case for defense.

Don't know of specific instances, but I expect there are American Muslims working with the US government to stop terrorist.

warpus · Sep 28, 2015

Yes, Ahmed Bauer for example, guy's been doing real good work.

Tahuti · Sep 28, 2015

abradley said:
I agree with Gabriel that Islam isn't capable of working with Liberal Democracy.

Islam is very democratic. It is incompatible with Liberal individualism, though then again, so is Christianity. Liberalism didn't take root in the West until Christianity was supplanted by Enlightenment Individualism. Marxism went to become what Christianity was during the times when it was persecuted by the Roman Empire, albeit secularised to blend in with the changes the West underwent with the Enlightenment.

Formaldehyde · Sep 28, 2015

abradley said:
I agree with Gabriel that Islam isn't capable of working with Liberal Democracy.

Yes. You have made that Islamophobic position quite well known in this forum.

abradley said:
That said , as I've posted, have live with and around Muslims and found them to be good people, my hope is that American Islam will be will be Liberalized over time.

What makes you think they aren't already "Liberalized", whatever that is supposed to mean?

abradley said:
Don't know of specific instances, but I expect there are American Muslims working with the US government to stop terrorist.

You mean like most every single mosque and Imam in the country? But your very same god forbid if even they are allowed to have the very same rights as everybody else. Right?

Commodore · Sep 28, 2015

Formaldehyde said:
What makes you think they aren't already "Liberalized", whatever that is supposed to mean?

My guess is it is supposed to mean the same thing as being the average American Christian in the sense that they claim to be Christian, but rarely actually follow the tenants of their religion.

Basically, just being Muslim in name only.

abradley · Sep 28, 2015

Formaldehyde said:
Yes. You have made that Islamophobic position quite well known in this forum.

What makes you think they aren't already "Liberalized", whatever that is supposed to mean?

You mean like most every single mosque and Imam in the country? But your very same god forbid if even they are allowed to have the very same rights as everybody else. Right?

The attempts to introduce Sharia, where is the Islamic outcry against it?

As for rights, what right are they denied?

abradley · Sep 28, 2015

Tovergieter said:
Islam is very democratic. It is incompatible with Liberal individualism, though then again, so is Christianity. Liberalism didn't take root in the West until Christianity was supplanted by Enlightenment Individualism. Marxism went to become what Christianity was during the times when it was persecuted by the Roman Empire, albeit secularised to blend in with the changes the West underwent with the Enlightenment.

In what way?

jackelgull · Sep 28, 2015

abradley said:
In what way?

The point of Christianity is to submit before a god, to restrain one's desires and wants to secure a spot in heaven with Him. That is incompatible with Western Liberalism which is all about the individual and his/her potential and his/her greatness.

abradley · Sep 28, 2015

jackelgull said:
The point of Christianity is to submit before a god, to restrain one's desires and wants to secure a spot in heaven with Him. That is incompatible with Western Liberalism which is all about the individual and his/her potential and his/her greatness.

What's wrong with restraining (controlling) ones desires? Do you think our nstion's laws should be abolished? They restrain our desires.

Addon

San Marino.

Leonel · Sep 28, 2015

Formaldehyde said:
That is just it. Those who make blatantly obvious Islamophobic statements while claiming that Islam must be a "religion of violence" refuse to see any nuance at all, while insisting there can't possibly be any "beauty of the product". This is despite the overwhelming majority of them believing in the very same god as Muslims themselves in myriad different ways from other Christians and Jews.

Many of them even claim to be experts on the topic because they have read the Quran in English, or some other similar language, while completely ignoring all the religious scholars and practitioners of Islam who categorically state they really know little or nothing at all about this religion.

Meanwhile, the rampant Islamophobia from all this reprehensible propaganda is victimizing even more completely peaceful Muslims in the US and Europe. This is really no different than the rampant antisemitism which used to exist in these same countries before the Roman Catholic Church finally stood up against passion plays in the 60s creating an impetus strong enough to finally rein it in.

Speaking of which, I wonder why the Pope doesn't vehemently stand up in opposition to all this...

Just tell them what Christian's tell me when I point out the genocidy parts of the Bible and say that they just aren't reading it properly.

jackelgull · Sep 28, 2015

abradley said:
What's wrong with restraining (controlling) ones desires? Do you think our nstion's laws should be abolished? They restrain our desires.

Addon

San Marino.

Yes, but liberalism is about restraining desires only if those desires prevent someone elses freedom, which is why Christianity and Islam have a sexual fidelity clause that liberal western laws don't. Restraining people's sexual freedom doesn't enable a freedom of someone else. I'm not saying that Christianity or Islam is wrong in this regard. There is something to be said about self discipline and sacrifice that I'm highly sympathetic to. Also, Christianity and Islam are centered around things bigger than the individual, God and His religious community. In liberalism, the individual is the highest being. I see merit to both views.

El_Machinae · Sep 28, 2015

Sommerswerd said:
This is my point, exactly. The holy books need to be entirely revised/edited. Not legalese'd or cleverly interpreted to preserve the illusion of infallibility and "divine inspiration" etc. The scriptures are in many cases, wrong, outdated, obsolete, violent, oppressive, etc. The scriptures need to be removed and/or revised to reflect the modern world, and the old versions need to be relegated to "historical reference" status ... just like the map.

Actually, either work. If the 'common interpretation' becomes a benign one, then the religious book can be a force for good. So, the trick is to empower the memes that are of net benefit. The violent believer will never believe a non-believer's interpretation. But he will be swayed by the words of a fellow believer.

So, the positive memes need to be nurtured and even spread wherever possible. Lots of faiths cause damage in real time, so a major risk is 'letting perfect be the enemy of good', where we throw away good ideas 'cause they're not perfect.

American Muslims fear a new wave of Islamophobia

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