SGOTM 22 - Anti-TSR

Roads at Bovino-N and -2N1E allow Cuirs from Damascus to attack Nemet on T207.

Notes on ZPV's Plan
In general, I agree we should beat Brennus down heavily by T208. After that, I think it's foolhardy to try to finish him off without cannons. We still have a lot of warring to do.

Bovino and HC
1. HC needs 3 more Cuirs for DoW. Brennus wkr at Calleva-2S1W will finish road IBT and Brennus could capture HC.
2. Put sacrificial warrior at Bovino-2S1E so BrSoD has choice of warrior or Bovino-SE (or HC-NE). Otherwise warrior blocks clear 1t-path to Bovino.
3. 2 wkrs can safely move to road Bovino-N this turn. We might want this road to allow Damascus Cuirs to attack Nemet.
4. I would move all but 7 units out of Bovino to make it more attractive as a target.

Gil Units
1. Galleys can move 1E this turn, then close borders with Brennus to teleport to Nibru-2W, then move into Nibru.
2. CR3 prat on marble can't upgrade till T206, land at Vienne T207, maybe too late for Vienne or Bibrachte. Maybe use for later attack on Verlamion or Camulo.
3. We could attack Vienne on T206 with 3 healed Cuirs + 4 healed Prats, though I don't necessarily recommend it. Otherwise T207.
4. Best solution for T207 attack on Vienne is all Cuirs and Prats moving asap to Nibru and boarding galleys same turn. Then they can heal in Nibru and while moving 1 turn. Otherwise CR3 Mace doesn't heal fully.

Gil trebs
We should send 1 accuracy + 1 other treb to each of Nemet and Duroc to bombard to 0% on T207 or T208. Easy pickins'. Those trebs should be timed to drop off into our two mini-SoDs of Cuirs. Nemet SoD comes from Damascus, the other from Bovino.

Mecca
I agree with the Mecca-galley plan, except I would add 1t galleys in Aksum and Gondar, load each with 2 Cuirs with the plan of capturing Gergovia-Tolosa.

Upgrades
My strong opinion is that we should only upgrade the 4 Gill CR3s and the 2 Damascus CR3s. Save other cash for teching Steel. We'll have plenty of time to finish Brennus off and it won't take 20t because they can board galleys via Bovino-Nemet or whatever. Furthermore, we could pre-build trebs, which only cost 80g to upgrade. Far better use of our gold than a bunch of exorbitant chariot + prat upgrades.

Steel
My very strong opinion is Steel asap. Well-promoted fortified rifles will cost us at least 2-3 Cuirs or Grens without revolting or bombarding cities. Our warring can easily bog down in BrennusLand and cost us a lot of units. With our small number of production cities, units are at a premium. So Steel frees us to focus on Hannibal and Darius while we gradually clean up Brennus. It also frees us from spending money on eps. Forget revolting castle cities from now on. And forget Rifling. We don't need it.

If our warring with Brennus goes well, we could just upgrade the 5 trebs we have to finish Brennus off with. Or add 3-4 more to finish the same turn we get Steel.

Gil's SoD
Gil's SoD will return to Eridu on ~T210 and will be a monster to capture (right now it's trivial). Something to think about. I guess our Brennus cannons could finish it off. Or a spy on the Gondar galley could revolt it later on. Or maybe we figure out how to raze it before T210.

Green light

1. Brennus worker will not finish the road ibt when we DoW this turn, so HC is safe.

2. Warrior: 2S1E works, but I strongly prefer SE because it allows our Prats in Rome and other 1-movers to kill a unit in the SoB and end up in the city to heal T205. Implies we move most units in Rome towards Bovino this turn. You should also send all chariots...even the ones you're not going to upgrade (they can move and still upgrade this turn). There will be a bunch of flanked siege to clean up. Let's use those Rome units even if many will return in case we need another city. Heck, even send the archers! Leaves more Cuirs that can move in on Brennus. Promote archers to C1 just for fun and get some kills!

4. If you want to leave 7 in Bovino, that's fine, but put all the rest just one tile away (on a road of course)

I would consider drafting Bovino. The unit will be put to good use immediately. Your call, no need to discuss. Just planting the thought.

Trebs
Sad to see no Trebs in Bovino. We could have used a few, but I guess this DoW is coming much earlier than we planned. Trebs could have moved in T204 with a stack of Cuirs--the ones not needed for SoB wipeout (assumes we have enough leftovers), but I see uses for still building some now.

We could get one Treb moving T205 out of Bovino after the Cuir. I would also put one out of Rome this turn. It's too slow for Nemet and 1 tile late for the possible T205 march, but if we delay to T206 because we are healing or we see heavy losses without siege, let's at least have the option of trebs in the area. Put a 3rd Treb in HC next turn, after the Cuir. It will move T206 also and can be used for nice efficient Calleva job. To get the Treb in HC...stop working the windmill and work the mine for at least 3 turns.

Good ideas here - thanks for the feedback. I'll be able to do most of it.

I'm looking to DoW this turn, run EPs on Brennus this turn (MilSci), and start Steel next turn.

Don't we have enough EP for MilSci already (403)? Or is the plan to steal it next turn, without the religion bonus (717)?

Are 1t earlier grenadiers worth more than 1t earlier cannons?

Pollina said:

Don't we have enough EP for MilSci already (403)? Or is the plan to steal it next turn, without the religion bonus (717)?

Are 1t earlier grenadiers worth more than 1t earlier cannons?

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Right. If we're DoWing Brennus, then we don't need Christianity anymore and can revolt because to Hindu in 2t, making MilSci *60% cheaper.

Revolt back to Theocracy also. Not sure about Slavery vs. Castes.

WastinTime said:

1. Brennus worker will not finish the road ibt when we DoW this turn, so HC is safe.

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Mousing over, it reads:

"Worker, Build a road(2)

Build a Road: 1 Turn"

What makes you so sure he won't finish the road ibt? Of course I don't know whether the worker moves before the units in Calleva, do you?

2. Warrior: 2S1E works, but I strongly prefer SE because it allows our Prats in Rome and other 1-movers to kill a unit in the SoB and end up in the city to heal T205. Implies we move most units in Rome towards Bovino this turn. ... There will be a bunch of flanked siege to clean up. Let's use those Rome units even if many will return in case we need another city. Heck, even send the archers! Leaves more Cuirs that can move in on Brennus. Promote archers to C1 just for fun and get some kills!

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Good idea on using trivial units. Not sure it particularly matters whether our 1-mvmt units heal faster, but your point makes sense. My concern is a code-diving concern -- that blocking the only 3-tile path to Bovino might dissuade the SoD leader from moving on Bovino and instead it might move to the hill at HC-2N. I don't dive code so I don't know but iiuc there is a separate routine for mapping paths.

Speaking of which, if BrSoD moves to HC-NE or HC-2N, we'll need the appropriate roads and our Cuirs positioned such that they'll be able to return to Bovino or HC the same turn to start healing sooner. That takes a bit of thought but should be doable, I think. Maybe prioritize roads at HC-N and HC-2N1W this turn.

WastinTime said:

TrebsIt's too slow for Nemet

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See my above post for how to get both Nemet and Duroc bombarded to 0%. These two cities are super-low-hanging fruit.

You should also send all chariots...even the ones you're not going to upgrade (they can move and still upgrade this turn).

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To reiterate, my hunch is that Steel is on our Critical Path, not upgrading chariots to Cuirs at this juncture. All the moreso if cannons are the slow link in the chain. Those chariots can still be upgraded later, when we're making our final push and are flush with cash. We should have plenty of Cuirs right now for Bagacum, Calleva, Duroc, and Nemet.

Btw, ZPV, unless the 7 cats leave Bibrachte, capturing it will be extremely tight with only 12 Cuirs. I'm thinking it might be better to leave New Bad-T till later unless we can capture it with prats.

ZPV said:

I'm looking to DoW this turn, run EPs on Brennus this turn (MilSci), and start Steel next turn.

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Hannibal has MilSci, not Brennus.

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting we spend our money on upgrading chariots, just sayin' move them first and then upgrade if you're going to upgrade. I haven't made up my mind on Steel yet. Don't hold up the game for me on that. Whatever you guys work out as most efficient.

Brennus road. I suppose it's not unheard of for the AI to leave a worker vulnerable, but 99.9% of the time, that worker will run away, not complete the road and sit there to be captured. I think HC-NE is not reachable, so we don't need those 2 roads near HC. If the stack goes to HC-2N, then we can hit it and get to bovino with our units stacked at Bovino-SW.

Thoughts on Steel

Looks like 9t without sacrificing military, but let's say LC's 8t plan is a reality. That'll be tough with the GAge ending.

We're going to spend around 2300-2500 gold

By the time we get Steel, our GAage is over forever, so
Rome could make a cannon in 1t.
Damascus, Bovino: cannons in 2t
everyone else: at least 3t

Brennus will hopefully be down to 4-5 core cities plus any new size 1's he settled.
the closest city needing cannons: probably Camulodunum (and Vienne)

Our first 2 cannons would be able to attack Camolu 14t from now or Vienne in 13t (assuming they can get a nice boat ride) There could be caravels everywhere and then they have to walk and cannot be used until 17t from now. Nibru could get one to Vienne in 15t (13t with safe boating)

My concern is the case where we get our first 2 cannons to Camulo in 17t. They will likely see one more battle in their lifetime if they survive the first one. That's not a lot of use.

Compare that to spending 2070 on 9 chariots. These units can rack up a lot of kills. starting next turn.

Seems like the wise choice is to do both! We don't need 2300 gold right now to research steel. We just need 300 gpt. So spend half our money on upgrades now and just expect to get enough income to keep researching Steel.

Start by demanding all of Sal's money for 10t peace.

Also demand Darius' gold? We won't go after him for 10t, right?

GGs
We will be getting our...what is it? 8th?...GG in just a couple turns assuming the SoB is wiped out as planned. Are we thinking +50% hammers somewhere?

And the current GG. replace our dead healer? or not? Just do another +50% hammers?

I do not think Cannons are our critical path.
I think our critical path is
1) Damage Brennus sufficiently that we can clean up his remaining cities later. We can't throw away our units at this stage.
2) Sweep through Hannibal's cities. We can afford to sacrifice 30-40 cuirs at this stage if we need to.
3) Unit positioning for cleanup (particularly Darius and Brennus)

WastinTime said:

Thoughts on Steel

My concern is the case where we get our first 2 cannons to Camulo in 17t. They will likely see one more battle in their lifetime if they survive the first one. That's not a lot of use.

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We can have at least the first couple cannons, if not 5 or more, ready to attack Camulo in 15t. That's without a galley chain. By then we'll have captured Bagacum and Durnovaria, upgrade trebs for 80g each at HC-3W1N, voila. But 15t is too slow.

For Camulo, Bibrachte, and/or Verlamion, we could upgrade them at Bovino-2N2E, move them directly NE onto waiting galley chain, CF w/Brennus if necessary but it won't be, and we attack Camulo (12t), Bibrachte(13t), and Verlamion(15t). My plan has 2 trebs each at Nemet and Duroc on T207. You're asking for some more at Calleva. Use them for bombarding, then upgrade them a few turns later. Bingo! (We should have the cash for them, with our many captures around T107/108.)

You guys act like you've never had to do CIV magic with your doomsday, cannons-take-forever scenarios.

Seems like the wise choice is to do both! We don't need 2300 gold right now to research steel. We just need 300 gpt. So spend half our money on upgrades now and just expect to get enough income to keep researching Steel.

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That's my thinking -- do both, that is, upgrade about 4 CR3 grens (maybe a couple more to free all the Cuirs for Bibrachte), who might make a difference, and get Steel, which guarantees that we wipe out Brennus.

ZPV said:

I do not think Cannons are our critical path.
I think our critical path is
1) Damage Brennus sufficiently that we can clean up his remaining cities later. We can't throw away our units at this stage.
2) Sweep through Hannibal's cities. We can afford to sacrifice 30-40 cuirs at this stage if we need to.
3) Unit positioning for cleanup (particularly Darius and Brennus)

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Completely agree with #1, #2, and #3. Allow me to re-phrase "critical path" to "guaranteed critical path," that is, cannons guarantee our critical path. Without them, it's a crapshoot. Why play craps?

What I don't see is you two explaining how a few more Cuirs is going to make a huge difference right now and how we're going to beat down on Hannibal, Darius, and Sal, while "cleaning up" Brennus with his 5 riflemen in the next 15-20t.

To me, the point of Steel is to 1) free our units to go down on Hanni et al., and most important 2) protect against real doomsday possibility of Brennus the Unit Spammer spamming rifles. If we have a simple-to-produce SoD of 10 cannons, then let Brennus spam rifles.

One more thing I don't see is what difference it makes upgrading the chariots sooner than a little later.

Hmm, perhaps I wasn't clear.
I don't mean "never research steel" - if Brennus gets Rifling earlier than expected then we probably have no choice but to go for Cannons and a slowish war (probably after we DoP and target Hannibal) - but then I probably want to spend the EPs to see his research as well before researching it.

I do mean "go for the early steal of MilSci and a couple extra grenadier upgrades (not all the CR2s, but some) to hit Brennus harder now".

Chariot upgrades don't do anything for us at the moment. All they do is give us Cuirs where we already have Cuirs and are building more.

I think we're all on about the same page. We will CF Brennus soon after he starts popping out Rifles and upgrading LBs, etc. Then we can turn on Hannibal before he gets Rifles. So I don't think we need to rush Steel in 8t. That's about the time we will CF.
So let's spend some money, and if we have to go 0% research for a turn or two while we try to get some conquer gold. That's OK.

Green light

ZPV said:

I don't mean "never research steel" - if Brennus gets Rifling earlier than expected then we probably have no choice but to go for Cannons and a slowish war (probably after we DoP and target Hannibal) - but then I probably want to spend the EPs to see his research as well before researching it.

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Delaying Steel even farther is contrary to the main argument you and WT have presented -- slow cannons -- isn't it?

We're expecting Brennus to get Rifling on T207 or T208 at the latest, right? Maybe he'll tech a bit slower with 2 fewer happies and no Bureau. To me, even T209 or T210 is already too soon. By then he can revolt back to Slavery and start whipping rifles, which we know BtS AIs do. He's got huge cities. There's no way we can capture all by then. To me, that means we go for Steel, period. But if we're going for Steel, period, then we want it asap and there's no reason to spend eps on seeing his research, because that just slows Steel down.

The only alternative I see, if we want to avoid Steel at all costs would be to send out some pillaging groups of Cuirs+grens and stone-age Brennus. That seems like a lot of work.

ZPV said:

I do mean "go for the early steal of MilSci and a couple extra grenadier upgrades (not all the CR2s, but some) to hit Brennus harder now".

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Currently, your plan lists T205 for Gren upgrades. That's when we can revolt back to Hindu and as Pollina pointed out, we will already have enough eps. Moving the less-fortified spy out that turn, before conducting the mission, will give us something like 97% odds, instead of the 78% I think it's now showing.

When I study the Vienne and Bibrachte battles you proposed with those grens and the 12 Cuirs, I see Vienne being easy and Bibrachte totally dependent on what is built or added between DoW and T208 and whether the cats leave. It's dicey at best but absolutely worth a try. Waiting till T209 with more grens is a crapshoot, though still worth arriving there, but not worth suiciding our units against hopeless odds.

WastinTime said:

I think we're all on about the same page. We will CF Brennus soon after he starts popping out Rifles and upgrading LBs, etc. Then we can turn on Hannibal before he gets Rifles. So I don't think we need to rush Steel in 8t. That's about the time we will CF.
So let's spend some money, and if we have to go 0% research for a turn or two while we try to get some conquer gold. That's OK.

Green light

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Right. To be clear, I'm not arguing for Steel(8) at all costs. 8t was just my original estimate. It hired mercantilism scientists everywhere. If we want to build a galley in Aksum in 1t, iirc we need to hire an engineer. Et cetera. But I would try to maintain 100% Steel until T207 or so, to see if our CaptureGold can then maintain it. As you pointed out, it will be a lot harder after the GA is over.