Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

I'm on the side of Not splitting the Preh era.

As an alternative though I do think that some of the Tech in the later Preh could be moved to the Ancient. And the number of turns for being in the Preh diminished accordingly while the Ancient lengthened in proportion to munber of techs moved.

JosEPh

sunrisereader said:

After i traded away a lot of law enforcement units for a tech to a AI and rebuild my law enforcement units i noticed that arresting criminals can give military slaves, is this an intended effect?

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Yes.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

I'm on the side of Not splitting the Preh era.

As an alternative though I do think that some of the Tech in the later Preh could be moved to the Ancient. And the number of turns for being in the Preh diminished accordingly while the Ancient lengthened in proportion to munber of techs moved.

JosEPh

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You don't think it makes complete sense that Ancient begins at Sedentary Lifestyle? What would you be considering a more appropriate start for ancient? Ancient is pretty long too so feels about the same in my estimation.

I suppose that's not what you're saying though... you're talking about moving some of the techs TO Ancient... but what? All of those that are there currently predate permanent cities and are reasons permanent cities were eventually founded don't they?

However, we really should reconsider a lot of the techs at the end of 'classical' as being Medieval instead IMO.

The wheel would definitely make more sense as a starting place for Ancient. Neolithic could start at Livestock Domestication and include agriculture, sedentary, tribalism, etc. I'm definitely on team split because both the ancient age and prehistoric age seem a little too long, so adding neolithic kills two birds with one stone. Overall though, more content should be added to Galactic. That is much more important!

I agree with some of the later classical techs being medieval

Eman448 said:

The wheel would definitely make more sense as a starting place for Ancient. Neolithic could start at Livestock Domestication and include agriculture, sedentary, tribalism, etc. I'm definitely on team split because both the ancient age and prehistoric age seem a little too long, so adding neolithic kills two birds with one stone. Overall though, more content should be added to Galactic. That is much more important!

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The arguments have been to make the Ancient start earlier, not later. Permanent cities was the major shift outside of living in a Hunter-Gatherer way of life which was the most profound development that could be said to lead to a new 'era'.

Permanent cities couldn't possibly have come about without agriculture, but I think that Sedentary Lifestyle is a perfectly acceptable gateway tech.

Arakhor said:

Permanent cities couldn't possibly have come about without agriculture, but I think that Sedentary Lifestyle is a perfectly acceptable gateway tech.

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This is actually a very good point. Agriculture should be the ultimate lead-in tech TO Sedentary Lifestyle! Thus Agriculture should really be a Prehistoric tech. And its true that for quite a while before permanent cities emerged, going by what I know of American history, natives were planting crops in many fields along their hunting/gathering routes before finally settling down at a fertile location and really expanding out the fields there to support the permanent community.

It's for the same reason that animal domestication would've taken place before sedentary lifestyle as well. The domestication made it not only more possible to conceive of surviving in one permanent location for long periods but also made it more necessary to because the animals were easier to grow to larger manageable herds if the living situations were more permanent. Protecting them would then be easier because the territory was more intimately familiar and the threats around that territory more predictable. But without having domesticated smaller herds of livestock, I don't think the feasibility of permanent settlements was as strong.

aka: to address a much earlier comment suggesting animal domestication should be in the Ancient someone made... I think we have the timing being before Sed Lifestyle correct now.

Arakhor said:

Permanent cities couldn't possibly have come about without agriculture, but I think that Sedentary Lifestyle is a perfectly acceptable gateway tech.

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Not according to current thinking, but I expect it really comes down to what you call a city.

The current thinking is that permanent settlements happened where there was an abundance of wild food all year round. People then started messing with nature by removing those plants and animals they saw as a a threat to their food supply. This leads to agriculture.

Also while permanent settlements mean that some of the people lived there all year round, it does not mean all the people did. Dietary evidence suggest that while the women, very young and old lived in the settlement eating semi domesticated animals the men ate more wild animals. The suggestion being that men gave up hunting or herding later than women. This is a good strategy from a tribes point of view as they would have a safe place for the very young increasing their chance at life without giving up on a variety of sources of food.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Not according to current thinking, but I expect it really comes down to what you call a city.

The current thinking is that permanent settlements happened where there was an abundance of wild food all year round. People then started messing with nature by removing those plants and animals they saw as a a threat to their food supply. This leads to agriculture.

Also while permanent settlements mean that some of the people lived there all year round, it does not mean all the people did. Dietary evidence suggest that while the women, very young and old lived in the settlement eating semi domesticated animals the men ate more wild animals. The suggestion being that men gave up hunting or herding later than women. This is a good strategy from a tribes point of view as they would have a safe place for the very young increasing their chance at life without giving up on a variety of sources of food.

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I suppose this explanation sounds palatable enough as to why agriculture would come afterwards. Sounds like the anthropologists have a rather debatable topic there.

Neolithic age included agriculture and sedentary lifestyle. The transition to a more bronze age type of society(where we would start ancient age) would begin with the wheel. Not just with sedentary lifestyle. Most tribes in Papau New Guinea are sedentary. But they are still hunter-gatherers, so the two dont necessarily have go side by side

Thunderbrd said:

I suppose this explanation sounds palatable enough as to why agriculture would come afterwards. Sounds like the anthropologists have a rather debatable topic there.

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Archaeological rather than anthropological it is all in the bones and teeth. Both diet and who is living where.

Eman448 said:

Neolithic age included agriculture and sedentary lifestyle. The transition to a more bronze age type of society(where we would start ancient age) would begin with the wheel. Not just with sedentary lifestyle. Most tribes in Papau New Guinea are sedentary. But they are still hunter-gatherers, so the two dont necessarily have go side by side

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Not all societies bothered with a wheel. It is useful if you have some flat ground but not much use if your nation is in the mountains eg Peru.

Agriculture with abundant crops and "improved" weaponry does lead to the type of war and battle represented in Civ.

One thing to keep in mind is that the four major things at the Prehistoric/Ancient boundary--Permanent settlements, animal domestication, agriculture, and megaliths--developed gradually over centuries. Anthropologists still debate the issue, but my understanding of history is that these four phenomena are co-evolutionary. That is, they are mutually reinforcing developments. The modern equivalent is the STEM cycle, where scientific knowledge, engineering prowess, economic growth, and centralized governance are co-evolutionary phenomena. It's hard to model co-evolutionary processes with a tree structure.

Eman: if you have specific thoughts on the Galactic Era, please share them in the space colonization thread under Modmods. I am planning an update to the modmod.

why doesn't stone and hammer add plus one to every city?

@TB, DH & Sparth.
You have made amazing progress while I was away.
I've for 2-3 days of non stop xml work now, just managed to update my BIG modmod to the latest revision. ^^

My plan is to finish animating an improved version of the alpha prime unit in my modmod and then I'll fix the droid tank and tuareg camel rider animation bugs; this should be done within the next weekend.
After that I'll have to playtest all the new stuff for a while.

Welcome back Toffer! I hope you stay for a little longer because your job for the mod is astonishing!

SOME of the OLD OLD RoM civics

I only changed Chiefdom, Depositism, Hereditary Rule, Rebublic, Democracy, Technocracy and Trade, very little / /

Just changes to the items not the civics themselves . .

EDIT: Well i guess i am only going to do very little here, but here are some changes that need to be done from RoM, not much and this will be my last on this. .

If no one is opposed to these little changes i will put them in the core civics . (not included is Civ8Players stuff) in the core to be changed, , only the changes I MADE, not the rest, sorry for the confusion . . . . .

strategyonly said:

Would anyone be opposed to me bringing back, SOME of the OLD OLD RoM civics in the core for now, till the other modmod people get things straight?? Just changes to the items not the civics themselves . .

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If these civs are included in my civ megapack then better is take them from this modmod because they are after some improvements.

Sparth said:

If these civs are included in my civ megapack then better is take them from this modmod because they are after some improvements.

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CIVICs not civs . .

strategyonly said:

CIVICs not civs . .

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Sorry, im blind