Classic GOTM 32 Spoiler 1: End of ancient age

al_thor: I know what you mean about those wasted cities, nearly every city in the old American lands and to the west of them are 1-shield cities even though they are all size 6/12. I've been playing C3C alot lately and forgot about the high level of corruption. I'm hoping to reverse the problem by taking advantage of the palace jump bug and move my capital to the other island. That should hopefully reduce the corruption on the whole original continent.

Really? Why?

I have never done the 'palace jump', so I am unfamiliar with the effects. Doesn't your original ring of cities (and especially your Capitol) go to pot? Or do you counter this with the FP built close to your original capitol?
I'll be putting Police Stations in many of the deserving American cities, but ALL of my Iroquois cities are doing great (can produce a Cavalry or Infantry in like 2 turns).

My FP was in the former Iroquois land. I actually switched to commie some time later to make the corrupted S cities productive enough to build courts and police.

I got a few MLG's. Nothing like a militaristic civ for leaders. I played as Spain recently and got no leader after 2 wars.

I built the FP in the high food city W of Tenochtitlan. Later i moved my palace to Washington and Tenochtitlan was my highest commerce city the whole game.

PTW 1.27 Open

I moved the settler south, decided not to settle off the coast but with coastal waters in the city radius, and moved west to settle on the dyes. I built a jaguar warrior and researched pottery at max. The turn the JW finished I met the Americans and traded warrior code, 3 gpt and 3 g for pottery and masonry. Started in on alphabet at minimum. I built two more JW and met the Iroquois in 3400 BC. I traded masonry for bronze working and 35 g.

In 2350 BC I swapped CB + 6 gpt + 80 g for IW from the Americans. It took me more than a thousand years to get a settler to some iron, and nearly another thousand to get it hooked up, because I went for the iron off to the west, through the jungle. This was a dumb move, one of many in this game, but this one didn't bite me later.
In 1700 I learned alphabet and traded it + 20 g for the Wheel and a worker from the Americans.
In 1225 I learned writing and built embassies.
In 730 I learned map making. I didn't make good use of this tech; I built maybe two galleys the whole game and did nothing with them. I finally met some off-continent neighbors using a suicide _caravel_.
In 490 I learned literature and traded it to the Americans for math, HBRiding, and their world map.
I learned the other required techs somehow and entered the middle ages in 10 BC.
Evidently the Iroquois never had anything of value, as I don't have a single recorded trade with them after our initial contact.

I built some cities, using RCP at 4,6,9,11 which got me silks and iron and some pretty good land. I didn't get enough workers early on, and I lost one to a barb. I had 6 cities at 1000 BC, and 10 by 550 BC when I stopped writing them down. My expansion wasn't great, but I'm continuing to improve.

The ancient age went relatively smoothly. It wasn't until the middle ages that I discovered I'd shot myself in the foot. I'll save that for the next spoiler.

Skipping over the huge blunders, I've gotten close to the end of this game and I'm trying to decide how to win (evidently, a hole in the foot isn't fatal). I'd like a cultural win, but I could go diplomatic or spaceship. I'll need a few more turns for a cultural win, and I'm concerned with someone else building a spaceship first. I'm contemplating spying on my rivals, but I'm concerned about the consequences if I get caught - I don't really want a war now, although I could deal with it if I had to. I've never planted a spy before. Is there a good source of information on the risks involved? I looked around but didn't find anything very helpful - just a few non-specific threads.

Off Topic: I always have to log in twice before it will let me post. Is there something I should be doing differently or is this just a weirdness I should live with?

CKS said:

Off Topic: I always have to log in twice before it will let me post. Is there something I should be doing differently or is this just a weirdness I should live with?

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It may be a refresh issue, not a login problem. If you are using IE, check under Tools/Internet Options/Temporary Internet Files/Settings and make sure the check for newer page is set to automatic.

I'm contemplating spying on my rivals, but I'm concerned about the consequences if I get caught - I don't really want a war now, although I could deal with it if I had to. I've never planted a spy before.

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If you're just looking you can use your embassy. Spies are necessary for sabotage or theft. I just recently realized that myself.

denyd said:

I built mine in right next to the capital, hoping someday get a GL and move the Palace to a distant land.

I've had very poor luck with leader generation. I've probably had over 30 elite victories and have yet to get my first one. I know they'll all start appearing after all the wonders are gone and the game is won.

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I did the same thing, only I rushed a wonder with my first great leader, realizing right afterward that I should have saved it for palace jump. Took my entire continent without getting another, and not planning to go after the other continent, though I may have to reconsider.

al_thor: CHECK OUT THIS LINK

If you can't get the link to work, here's what it is in a nutshell.

Step 1. Found the capital (duh)
Step 2. ASAP build the Forbidden Palace in the most productive city (usually right next to the capital). This is normally a quick build due to the available shields at this city (20-25 turns)
Step 3. Complete the conquest of your continent
Step 4. Begin the conquest of another continent.
Step 5. Once you get a Great Leader, use him to rush build a palace in one of the ex-capitals. Preferably a central city.

Benefits:
1. Your new capital is now immune to culture flips.
2. Your original island sees an instant drop in corruption
3. Your new lands are now productive
4. Those new cities are now less likely to flip (closer to the capital)
5. Your new capital can take advantage of the land improvements the AI has done

Cautions:
1. Do NOT use this procedure to move your capital to a place you don't intend to develop, it will cause you game to be disqualified from the GOTM
2. Beware, your city could flip before the palace completes (flips checked before builds)
3. The cost of the palace is variable depending on the number of cities, so if you take a capital, get a GL, use the GL to rush a palace and then take 3 more cities the price might go up, so save the palace rush for your last action of the turn.
4. You need to be sure that this new capital has a connection (road, harbor or airport) to the original capital or else you'll break your trade deals and will probably get lots of city riots.
5. Your new capital is much closer to the front lines and is vunerable, so protect it.

Xevious:
You will surely get one when you go after the other continent.

I built the Heroic Epic, which is probably why I have had 4 leaders already. I just started another war with America to clean them up, and I will most likely get another leader out of that.
I have one unit that became a leader as a Horse. I converted him to Knight and he became another leader. I have since converted him to Cavalry, but he is not Elite yet. I would love to get another leader out of him - he will definitely be retired into my capitol at that point - showered with booze, luxuries and women!

Moderator Action: Time gentlemen, please ... this conversation is getting way beyond the actions normally associated with the Ancient Age. -- AlanH

CKS said:

PTW 1.27 Open
I'd like a cultural win, but I could go diplomatic or spaceship. I'll need a few more turns for a cultural win, and I'm concerned with someone else building a spaceship first. I'm contemplating spying on my rivals, but I'm concerned about the consequences if I get caught - I don't really want a war now, although I could deal with it if I had to. I've never planted a spy before. Is there a good source of information on the risks involved?

Click to expand...

I can't give you any numbers or what not but I used spies for the first time in last month's gotm. They helped me out greatly, though beware. I used spies to monitor spaceship production of my three or four rival civs. When you plant a spy, you can then view the number of parts they've built and are currently building in the spaceship advisor screen. I had spies with both my friends and enemies.

I found it very difficult to plant a spy with a civ I was at war with. It took four or five tries to get one in. When I did, I was able to see that then only needed one SS component to complete. I took my chances and used the spy to sabotage production in a major city. I got lucky and happened to destroy their component and was able to go on and win via diplomacy.

Be willing to go to war though because if caught there is a good chance they will declare. I found that if they are overseas, then all you need to do is fight a defensive war. With railroads, you should be able to quell any invasion onto your home continent quickly.

Without spies, I would have been relegated to a loss in my first gotm but instead I earned my first victory on emperor. I don't think I would use them on a regular basis but in times of desperation, anything goes.

Good luck.

Moderator Action: Time gentlemen, please ... this conversation is getting way beyond the actions normally associated with the Ancient Age. -- AlanH

denyd - thanks for the awesome synopsis of 'palace jump'. Excellent. I will definitely try that sometime soon.

AlanH - sorry about the off-topic/off-base chatter. oops.

The question of blocking chokes came up when I was recounting my (admittedly sub-par) game. I'm absolutely terrible when it comes to graphics, but I opened up Paint and hopefully a screenshot is attached below. I wanted to illustrate the obvious benefits and locations for using the choke. Placing troops at these points won't anger the AI, but it will restrict their movement (and change their pathfinding).

The 'red' choke actually worked out for me. I put a scouting J. Warrior there when he wasn't busy, in the most restrictive position. When San Francisco was founded, I was forced to move off a square, but that J. Warrior allowed me to found Teayo and Cempoala rather late.

Now at the 'blue' choke, I noticed it late (after I'd scouted there). So Seattle was up before I blockaded. But I SHOULD have been there, forcing Abe to move Seattle or not build it at all. Instead, I had two J. Warriors to the west. You can't see it in this picture, but there are a few underdeveloped cities that slowly pushed my J. Warriors back. Petty, but it retarted their development.

The 'yellow' choke I regard as a missed opportunity. Two J. Warriors just SE of Boston could have severely ******** the development of 4 productive cities. If I'd pulled it off, they wouldn't have been settled until map making, and the biggest would probably be size 6 at the time of this screenshot.

Speaking of which, astute observers will note I'm building Knights. Oops. And I'd already made the picture. That is a MA tech, but let me assure you that no MA resources are shown in this screenshot. In addition, I haven't yet reasearched any Middle Age resources at all, so be assured that this screenshot doesn't show the LACK of Middle age resources either. The screenshot should be kosher.

Praetor, it's nice to give such a in-depth choking point analysis.
i just have one point to add. i think the importance of choking point varies with the victory condition you have in mind or the short-term goal you have in mind.
for my early game, the AI built some cities but by destroying them before they become productive we could cripple their development more effectively. also by allowing the AI to build cities, you are spreading out their defense units, and this will also make it a little easier for you to take their cities. however if you wait too long, this may be another story. of course maybe in a lot of games we'll rely on the AI for the techs and this might be a very bad idea. however for the monarch level game any way should work out fine.

1.27

Pregame Planning

I decided to move the settler south to scout and then, if no reason to move further appears, the worker will mine the start tile and I'll settle on turn two.

I decided to play an "always war" game. I.e. on first contact with each rival, I must declare war on that Civ and then never agree to peace. I may not make any gpt or luxury/resource trades before declaring war. (See Arathorn's Comprehensive Guide to Variants for a description of this and many other variants.)

I also decided to try for a Diplomatic victory. If I don't get it on my first try then I'll have to finish the game another way. To make this possible at all I'll make one change to the always war rules - I'll allow making peace with other Civs on the turn before building the UN.

Since I haven't played an always war game before I did some extra planning before starting.

My usual rapid expansion type of opening would be a very bad idea with always war - it would result in more towns than I could defend. I'd have to start with a military buildup. No new town should be founded until I had the strength to defend it.

Aggressively attacking an early rival seems like a bad idea with always war. Such an attack is best done by applying most of one's military. That would leave my home region poorly defended and I might have a few other rivals coming from different directions. I think the best way to start will be to wait for my rivals to come after me.

I won't want to explore immediately. The longer it takes until I meet rivals the better - more time to prepare for their attacks and more time to advance in tech and take advantage of the one and only trading opportunity with each.

Initially I thought I'd begin by building Jaguar Warriors and using them for an early military advantage. After thinking things through I changed my mind. Jags are fine for exploring but I won't be exploring. Jags are good for rushing a rival but I won't be doing that either. The loss ratio with Jags is high - affordable against one rival but seems bad against a number of rivals at once. I want my military units to survive the large majority of their early fights. And finally, I'll prefer to avoid an early Golden Age. It might be necessary if I'm pressed hard by multiple rivals. But if I can do without it, which seems likely at Monarch level, I'd rather have it later.

I decided that my forces in the early game would be archers at home, and then archer/spearman groups when I explore and expand. Archers at home because I'd rather attack incoming rivals on ground of my choosing than defend against their attacks and allow them to pillage.

I decided to start by building barracks. This is a gamble but a very small one I think. The militaristic Aztecs can build a barracks at half price - it is quite unlikely that another Civ will meet me before it and a unit or two are complete. And with a lot of fighting coming, veteran units will be helpful, as will promotions to elite and chances for leaders.

Research will of course be a problem. No trades after first contact, I'll have to learn everything I want, and do it without any trade income from other Civs. It seems to me that two approaches are possible. 1) Lag a bit behind in research. This is probably the most effective approach - after my rivals know a tech I can research it more cheaply. That would make it easy to maintain four turn research a lot of the time, picking up techs quickly to make up for my rivals trading among themselves. 2) Try to get ahead in research. This is more difficult. I'll need lots of commerce and will have to invest shields in libraries and universities.

I'm going for a diplomatic win. And of course I want it at as early a date as I can manage. It will take the AIs a long time to reach Fission on their own. So I decided to go for the second approach, to try for a research lead.

If I can get the Great Library it will help a lot, keeping me caught up in Ancient Times and getting me some optional techs. I decided to try for it.

The Aztecs know Warrior Code as a starting tech so I'll start by researching Bronze Working to make spearmen available. After that I'll research Alphabet, Writing, and then Literature, to get to libraries and the Great Library asap.

I expect to be in Monarchy from the time I learn it to the end of the game. A Republic in an always war game would soon have maximum war weariness from every rival and that would be a huge problem.

I will avoid razing any cities to maximize my chance for a diplomatic win. I might get away with doing it with early rivals but I don't want to gamble on that.

I'll want to completely eliminate any Civ I have extensive war with, particularly any Civ whose cities I take. Up to a certain point warfare doesn't permanently damage the relationship with an AI. But after taking some cities it is unlikely they'll ever be friendly again. So they must be destroyed or they'll block a diplomatic win.

The Ancient Age

I moved the settler south and built Tenochtitlan there next turn. The worker began by mining and roading the start tile, then moved to do the same on two other BGs.

My build sequence was barracks, archer, archer.

As soon as the first archer was complete I sent him a bit east, exploring ring 3 sites for my second city. Unfortunately this resulted in spotting an American warrior. I traded for Pottery then declared war.

After building the second archer I decided to gamble on squeezing in a granary build. While building the granary two American warriors approached and I took a risk. I could flip the granary build to a spearman or gamble on my archers. It was likely (2 out of 3) that I'd defeat both warriors without losing an archer. If I lost one archer odds were high that the other warrior would be damaged and my remaining archer would win. If I lost both archers (1 in 68 chance) then this would be one of the shortest games of Civ I've played. Both archers won, phew.

After building the granary I built spearman, archer, spearman, and finally a settler in 2070BC. By this time I'd scouted the available ring 3 sites. My second city went to the northwest where it could claim the wheat after building a temple.

I then built up military for a while. No further American forces arrived until 1700BC and by that time I was in little danger from invaders - I had 4 archers and 3 spearmen, all staying near my two towns.

In 1675BC an Iroquois scout came into sight and I declared war. I also saw my first barbarian at that date.

In 1325BC my third win with an elite unit produced a leader! I had a prebuild for Great Library in the early stages - I had it build a granary and I saved the leader. In 1100BC I learned Literature and the leader rushed Great Library. It considerably simplified my research of course - in 1050BC it gave me Masonry, The Wheel, Iron Working, Mysticism, and Horseback Riding.

My QSC status (1000BC):
4 cities (the capital and three in ring 3)
2 granaries, 3 barracks, 2 temples
6 native workers, 2 captured workers
6 archers, 4 spearmen
1 Great Library
47g in treasury

My world looked like this at 1000BC:



Click here if you'd like a copy of my QSC timeline.

Iron soon became a concern. Both America and Iroquois had iron but I did not. A group I sent to explore the Iroquois lands encountered a swordsman in 850BC while they were retreating home.

I decided to set up for a horseman rush on Iroquois to take their iron. I didn't know where that was but presumably I'd eventually find it They didn't have horses (at least, not connected yet) so by hitting them quickly I might avoid their UU and avoid triggering their Golden Age.

During this time I researched Polytheism and then Monarchy - I didn't want to wait until I received Monarchy from the Great Library.

My losses of horsemen against Iroquois swordsmen were heavy but in 370BC I captured my first Iroquois town, Niagara Falls. And in 310BC I took Salamanca and its iron.

I slowed my attack at this point. I wanted to pick off another Iroquois town or two but all the towns I could see were size one. I had to wait for them to grow in culture or population to avoid razing them. During this phase I got a second leader in 210BC, from a spearman while defending. Nice. This leader rushed Forbidden Palace in Niagara Falls.

I learned Monarchy in 150BC, flipped immediately, and triggered my Golden Age with a Jaguar Warrior.

I used my Golden Age production mostly to build barracks, horsemen, and libraries. My progress against Iroquois was slow but steady. In 70AD I got a third leader. I used him to rush Hanging Gardens. That's usually not a priority for me but in this game I'd have problems getting a lot of happiness - can't trade for luxuries. So Hanging Gardens seemed a good thing, better than holding onto the leader for another wonder later on.

After building a couple of libraries I started researching again. Techs weren't coming quickly enough from the Great Library. I learned Currency in 70AD and Philosophy in 150AD which put me into the Middle Ages - I'd received all other required Ancient techs from the Great Library by then.

And that's it for my Ancient Age. Status at 150AD:



The capital region is growing nicely. It has a number of ring 3 and ring 6 cities and is fending off American attacks from the south easily. I'm farming the Iroquois region, picking off towns as they grow. I have 33 horsemen at this date.

denyd said:

Mursilis woke and spoke for the first time in months “All right, Alpha Centauri at last”.

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I'm so glad to see that Mursilis is continuing his journal!

AlanH said:

Why block the choke points? I didn't have much trouble with the AI trespassing, and I'm not sure putting JWs in the way would help.

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I don't understand it too. I think it works exactly the same way without blocking. The americans in my game didn't start to settle to the east and at the end it was too late for them.

Goal:
Victory by achieving 2OK culture in my capital.

Strategy:

• Because the starting position didn't have any visible food, I decided to make settlers in my second city.
• I wanted the capital to be on the coast for coastal wonders, so I scouted with worker E, and moved my Settler NW.
• I researched straight for Monarchy, while on purpose slowing the tech race down (which I think may have been a bad move).

Tenochtitlan (20K city) at 400AD:
Culture 1666, 29 per turn
Production 21 shields per turn
Commerce 53 gold per turn
Forecast 2050 AD 18271 culture, 46 per turn

Summary:
I settled on the coast to the NW, which I think was ok.
Because of the lack of food my capital grow very slow and I decided to build a Granary after building Temple, Jaguar Warrior, Settler.

At this moment I made a bad move that had a huge negative effect on my game. After Tenochtitlan produced a Settler and started building Granary, I saw an opportunity to road to my second city before mining Tenochtitlans third tile. I counted shields and turns and reached the conclusion that I would be able to mine the third tile in time for Tenochtitlan to grow. So far so good.
What I didn't count on was that when Tenochtitlan finished its Granary I wasn't able to keep up improving the terrain with only one worker. This caused the city at size 4 and bigger to work 1 and 2 tiles without shields and sometimes even 3 tiles. I didn't catch up until size 11.

I think that this was one of the reasons that Iroquois finished the Pyramids 3 turns before me and I had nothing to switch to and wasted 320 shields! Monarchy was only 6 turns away then. This is how it goes when playing late.

Also because I only build 1 jag. warrior which I sent SE I didn't notice the wheat, game and fish. It was pure luck that the second settler did find them, while going to close the peninsula towards Iroquois.

While doing a lot of wars I have not manage to get a single Great Leader! This was something I hoped for while playing a militaristic civ.

I triggered my Golden Age in 370 BC, some turns after switching to Monarchy. The golden age generates 33 shields per turn at the peak in Tenochtitlan and really helped me building wonders.

I entered the Middle Ages in 400 AD, which is one of my latest dates ever, and I have not managed to build so many wonders that I wanted to. I usually do better even on emperor level.

Se also attached timeline for ancient age below.

I decided as early as in the spoiler thread that those mountains in the east just looked too inviting for my worker. I sent my settler SE while my worker went E. Next turn my worker started to move and found the slightly depressing and claustrophobic landscape. I decided to do one more move S with my settler to see if there was anything in the waters S of him - but also to get more space to my northern coastline in my inner ring of cities. The additional coastline in the S didn't exactly lift my feeling of being cramped up in a small place.

Here is some highlights of my early rounds:

3900: Tenochtitian. Start max research on Alph.
3650: First Jag finished. Send him tunneling south.
3600: Meet tall abe and trade masonry + 10G for burial and code.
3450/3400: Both me and abes scout are within 1 move from two goody huts. His scout get a brand new city, my Jag wakens a bunch of Carib barbarians - figures...
3250: Pop second hut, get 25G. Build second Jag. Send him straight northwards.
3100: Finish third Jag, send him Eastwards. Order settler, around this time I pop my third hut in the south. It's empty.
3050: Meet a fellow indian, Hiawatha, up in N. We trade and pass the peacepipe. I get Bronze, pot and 35 G while he gets masonry and code.
2900: Settler away.
2800: Settle Teotihuacan. Start granary.
2710: Learn Alphabet, start max science at writing.
2590: First of many barb villages razed in the deep south. Get both my due gold and a veterancy. My population start badly needed construction work on my palace next round.
2270: Hiawatha gives Iron plus 25G, I give alphabet.
1950: Settle Tiateloco 3 tiles NW of Teotihuacan.
1750: My second worker finished at Teotihuacan. I need more, lots of them. I see that abe has iron very close at home. Same with Hiawatha. No easy denial of resources here...
1725: Hiawatha gives us the wheel and 60G, we give him writing that we just finished researching.
1475: Settle Texoco 2 tiles NNE of Teotihuacan. Order barracks.
1475-1150: Discover both phil and code of laws. Settle Calixatlahuaca(i guess - mouthcurling names) 3 tilees EENE of capitol, as soon as it grows I put my second citizen on the goldmountain to aid my research rate. Barb razings and trades keep my cash away from the redlighted areas. Send a settler on a mission northeastwards to deny Hiawatha his little unique horses. Settle Tlaxcala 3 tiles SE of capitol.
1075: Pop a hut very late because abe is too lazy to scout the far SW area of our continent. And we get maths.
1000BC: Another hut gives us 4 angry barbarians. We get horseback from abe for our maths. I have gifted techs a few time to encourage a healthier research subject that might suit me when I finish my republic research in another 19 rounds after my 1000BC save. I have two southward bound settlers that are attempting to strangle abes supply of horses as well, making me a King of Horses on our continent(at least as far as I can see from the revealed tiles. The southernmost horse will be a longshot since it's so close to Washington and so far from home. My northtreking settler has reached his goal, and unless Hiawatha whips out a joker from his sleeve he will have to walk instead of ride for a very long time. He will settle next round, securing both the horse and the silk there. I have 6 cities, 3 settlers, 2 barrackses and 1 temple. A bit slow start for a 1000bc. But my two settler factories purr out a settler every now and then. And my research is above average for a monarch game. For once I smile when I see barbs, because my Jags and Horses can loot them to keep my scientists going at full throttle.



Here is a bit breefer description of my remaining time in AA.


800BC: Have to ask for a ROP with Abe to get my settler to the southernmost horses.
775BC: The utterly crazy Iroquois declared war on the Americans. I sat back and continued my routines as his warriors and a spear or two trudged through my lands.


730BC: I have to abandon my trek for the southernmost horses as abe finally got around to take them himself. I don't exactly know what to do with the settler far away from home. But in the end I send him towards a nice area with an irontile and some more dye far SE. He's eventually killed by a fundemental error in the game. My escorting horse sees an approaching pair of barbs - one horse and one warrior. I decide to take out the horse, but instead of going for the horse my horse kills the warrior ???? So the next round my marooned settler meets his end. Quite annoying and surprising in such a late patch edition of the game.
610BC: Finish researching the republic, connect silk to my empire next round. And go for the comforting 1 round anarchy to republic rule.
570BC: 200 years after Hiwatha declared war they have the sence to settle for peace. Hiawatha and Abe puff the pipes of pece together.
450BC: Loose our first suicide galley after first round at ocean. Berlin finishes the pyramids. GRRRRR! Madrid finishes the Oracle. Yawn! And two rounds later Hiawatha finishes the lighthouse

190BC: We have one round left on our last tech in the Ancient Age. Here is a view of my status at that time.

@Singularity I like the way you chose to black out your mini-map.