COTM 02 First Spoiler: End Of Ancient age

al_thor said:

Ummmm....yeah, whatever. I never worked any tile twice. I went to Republic in 1025BC - long before that picture was taken.
What's your score BTW?

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I don't know what this shall add to the discusion, but my firaxis score in 550BC before I entered the middle ages was 308.

Don Vito said:

Hm. I tought the C in Cotm standed for Conquests. How did you manage to play with PtW

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Problems with playing too many games, don't know which is which. Consider it fixed

Random fan said:

Okay guys When I accepted your challenge (that I will settle right on the BG tile without scouting west with worker and you both - Smackster and Grahamiam will scout and then compare our results)
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So the point of this topic is to inform you about my misdeed and that if you wish I am ready to hold the challenge and if you don't I will understand

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We can simply do the challenge in reverse, as I settled on the BG, and you went for a wander. Wish I'd gone for that wander now of course.

klarius said:

why you don't attempt to get the Great Lighthouse?
Or formulated differently: What is Rotterdam doing after it got it's library.

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To answer the first question I'd have to go beyond this spoiler's restrictions - I'll try to remember to answer in the next spoiler

Rotterdam had a slightly unusual build sequence. After pumping a few galleys I had it build a temple. I don't tend to build many temples in my core. But one or two early ones can give a nice culture boost and that can tip the balance for me if there's also another reason to build them. In this case I'd built The Hague on the coastal silks to the SE and that left two coastal grass tiles between Rotterdam and The Hague which couldn't be worked until borders expanded, one of them a BG. And thus I wanted a temple in Rotterdam. After the temple I think its build sequence was library, harbor, marketplace, barracks. So much to do, so little time

Jason Fliegel said:

What about in an archipeligo game in which you're the only Seafaring civ? Don't forget that Printing Press is the required tech for trading contacts in C3C?

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It is as Bibor says. I never want to give contacts in trade. And it is hard to imagine a case where I'd get to Printing Press and not have them all, so I never want to trade to get contacts.

dmanakho said:

I have a guestion for the guys who moved settler far west into the middle of the island..

Don't you think it was kind of risky if you use common sense to do that??
At the beggining we didn't know we were on the island. It could have been as well a situation where you move your settler right next to the existing AI civilization. Wouldn't it be hard to expand in such a case?

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I don't remember ever seeing things that crowded on a standard size or larger map. I guess it could happen on tiny maps and maybe on small ones.

Even if it did happen, I wouldn't expect the AI to attack the wandering settler (I haven't tested that but it wouldn't seem like other AI behaviour if it did) so the only problem might be expansion. And expansion back toward the area we started from would be possible, so not much would be lost vs. having started there. If anything that way around might be an improvement in limiting the AIs expansion toward "our" area. I don't expect it would be hard to defend our area from a Monarch or even Emperor AI if it ran out of room and decided to attack relatively early.

1.22f

Since we are not allowed to talk about other civs and lands, this will be a short spoiler. I was one who sent his settler further west after seeing blue lines west of the mountains. Altough my initially thoughts were that this means fresh water and not silks, but anyway.
Finally I settled on the nice hill.

Expansion and happy trading was the main topic of the ancient age, here I can only reveal that I entered the middle ages in 1025 BC. I also started a revolution in this year and got 7 turns of anarchy. More in the next spoiler.



Some minimaps to show the development.

smackster said:

900BC For Construction, we get 360 Gold and Poly from "Somebody" and enter MA.

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Good research progress on Peninsula. I settled on river same spot as DaveMcW did. Achieved The Republic lingshot 1525bc. 5 turn anarchy period was painful with such tiny empire

1000BC stats:
10 x towns
1 x city
1 x settler
8 x workers
3 x Curraghs
2 x Library
1 x Harbor
3 x Granary
4 contacts
All AA techs, except Monarchy, Construction in 3 turns.
315gp.

925BC I learned Construction and entered on the MA. With 2 libraries boosting my research I was able to research Monotheism in 9 turns (11).

1.22

I pretty much followed the path I laid out in the pre-game discussion thread. My worker moved NW, I saw the rows of mountians, with hints of Forest on the other side and knew I had at least 6 turns of movement to reach much of anything, if anything was there. So I settled to the SE. Worker moved back, roaded and mined the Grassland, then joined the capital just after it reached size2. I set Lux to 10%, and 4 turns later built a Settler, which founded Rotterdam next turn on the hill to the West of the initial location in 3200 BC.

So here I was with no Worker. If nothing else, the turns were pretty easy! Both cities built Curraghs next; Amsterdam's went North and Rotterdam's West, and the exploration phase was on! Over the course of time I met 4 other civs following safe sea lanes. I did very few suicide attempts, and other than exploring a few remote islands, learned nothing new of value.

Rotterdam settled into a Warrior/Worker mode, needing 5 turns for each, and just growing to size2 before shrinking again. Amsterdam started building Settlers. It would finish one just upon reaching size 3, and the Rotterdam Worker (just built) would be joined to Amsterdam, putting it at size 2. A settler was built every 10 turns this way. A bit wasteful, but I thought the extra Rotterdam citizen was better off working a Whale space for Amsterdam then a bare coastal space for Rotterdam.

So gradually, a Warrior followed by a Settler started exploring the land beyond the mountains. The Hague was founded closeby on the River (wanted to reduce its initial corruption.) When I saw the Cattle, I knew where my future capital would go, and Utrecht was founded just SW of the cattle. At 1000 BC I'd grown to 6 cities with a Settler on the way to form #7. Amsterdam put out one more Worker, and was abandoned in 950 BC; Utrecht was size6 and just finishing it's Granary.

I planned to do the Writing-CofL-Philosophy slingshot to gain Republic. I was first to Writing, and after contacting the 4 other civs it was a bit hard not to trade it for all the other Techs that were available. I resisted; after all, even if one of them learned Writing and traded it around, I'd still have Code-of-Laws to trade for those same 1st tier Techs. So, I also learned CofL and had 8 turns to go on Philosophy when I saw one of the other civs had gotten Writing. Time to trade, and I got all 1st tier Techs, IronWorking, and some gold, for Writing. In 1500 BC I learned Philosophy, then got the free Republic, went to F1 to revolt, got 5 turns, exited, got "Do You Want to Change Govts?" question, said yes, and reduced the anarchy period a bit to 4 turns. Republic in 1400 BC.

I traded Philosophy around for HorsebackRiding and Mysticism, and whatever loose gold I could get. I researched Map-Making, which turned out to be wasteful as the AI learned it at the same time. Then Currency, learned in 825 BC, traded it around for Poly, Literature and Construction, and I was in the Middle Ages. Not a very strong militaristic start, but the isolation makes that a minimal issue.

I'm not convinced that migrating the Settler is the best starting move. Reasonably well played games that founded to the SE and then jumped Palace to the better location later have performed almost as well as moving the Settler NW first, and arguably better in the research arena. If there had been no Cattle bonus present, I would say that migrating the Settler is a poorer move. Granted the Dutch are an Agricultural civ, but you give up 2 known bonus spaces (and little else) for a chance to find fresh water; finding a Cattle space can not be expected. Building on the BG and planning a future Palace Jump based on exploration results seems a more likely and secure initial plan.

Not totally sure what the Middle Ages will hold. My Military is teeny-tiny, there's only one Luxury directly available, all strategic resources located so far are on other islands (quite devious, Ainwood), so it will take lots of Dutch ingenuity and diplomacy to bring all the pieces together. Looking forward to it!

SirPleb said:

[On researching Printing Press and trading contacts]
It is as Bibor says. I never want to give contacts in trade. And it is hard to imagine a case where I'd get to Printing Press and not have them all, so I never want to trade to get contacts.

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Interesting. I was slightly behind a couple of the larger civs in tech at that point so I figured that by selling the contacts (which the AI would be getting relatively soon anyway via Magnetism) and Printing Press, I'd get more bang for my research buck than if I went for Chemistry or whatever. Given SirPleb's history at this game, though, I'd guess I made the wrong call. Oh well.

well i researched printing press and then regretted it. But it worked out for me. I trade for money and other cool stuff communications to another civ the turn b4 it was wiped out. I knew it was gonna happen. So it kinda worked out for me

Open.

Clogdancer, the mighty worker was slightly drunk from eating too many over-ripe apples he'd found in the forest. The fermented taste didn't bother him at all as he waddled through the camp.

"I know cow-sniffing" he said to bypassers, who just gave him a quick look and walked away.

"There ARE cows in this world" he proclaimed wisely and continued, and I am the one that can find them. I'll show you all.

And he set out on a long trek that took almost half of the ancient age, as if he knew what an ancient age was. "I can smell those cows, they are right over that hill there" he said and...

William of Orange whacked the snoring worker over the head, "Get up you lazy bugger, we have an empire to build!"

I settled on the spot and built 2 curraghs and then settler. Found the second city on the river next to the silks, which after a settler who finally got the cow, continued with a granary.

1000bc I had an even dozen towns.

I decided to do the Republic slingshot as I didn't feel like wasting 20 turns of research on it. Entered MA 825bc.

I can't take this game seriously with 10 people just happen to find the fabled cow. Perhaps I listen to Clogdancer next time.

well done. that is very impressive to enter the MA in 825 BC ( well in my opinion it is)

is Denyd participating it COTM 2 because im looking forward to his spoiler

SniperDevil said:

well i researched printing press and then regretted it. But it worked out for me. I trade for money and other cool stuff communications to another civ the turn b4 it was wiped out. I knew it was gonna happen. So it kinda worked out for me

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How do you guys get the Printing Press in the AA, or am I missing something?

gozpel said:

Open.

I settled on the spot and built 2 curraghs and then settler. Found the second city on the river next to the silks, which after a settler who finally got the cow, continued with a granary.

1000bc I had an even dozen towns.

I decided to do the Republic slingshot as I didn't feel like wasting 20 turns of research on it. Entered MA 825bc.

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I think I understand that you managed to build 12 towns by 1000bc despite settling on the start square. That was very impressive. Did you abandon the capital early on or have you some as yet undreamt of secret squirrel methods of achieving early growth.

Who said this?

And the Philosophy - Republic slingshot starts to feel just as bad too. We "know" how the AI researches and take advantage of this and the COTM seem to be lot of fun, where 93% of the players use this trick everytime in every game. I for one won't use it again and if I reach Philo befor the AI I will use it for a non-gov tech.

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Haha, I know I said that, but the 20 turns of lost research doesn't seem valid and I have the right to change my mind The bonus Republic gives in commerce is greater than my stubbornness.

BUT I never abandon my capitol, why on earth should I raze the cradle of my civilization? I rather live with the corruption and trudge on.

I have my ways of squeezing out settlers quickly and usually my towns are on pop 1 when I hit MA.

Offa said:

I think I understand that you managed to build 12 towns by 1000bc despite settling on the start square. That was very impressive. Did you abandon the capital early on or have you some as yet undreamt of secret squirrel methods of achieving early growth.

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i think u should read his post more carefully

civ_steve said:

In 1500 BC I learned Philosophy, then got the free Republic, went to F1 to revolt, got 5 turns, exited, got "Do You Want to Change Govts?" question, said yes, and reduced the anarchy period a bit to 4 turns. Republic in 1400 BC.

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Are you sure you shaved off a turn? The turn switch occurs after the computer has gone through all the build orders of the cities - at least that's when the year changes in the lower right corner. Maybe you checked your anarchy period the second time when one turn had passed? I don't want to be a kill-joy, just want to be sure if this trick really works.

Megalou said:

Are you sure you shaved off a turn? The turn switch occurs after the computer has gone through all the build orders of the cities - at least that's when the year changes in the lower right corner. Maybe you checked your anarchy period the second time when one turn had passed? I don't want to be a kill-joy, just want to be sure if this trick really works.

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Sure it works, but half the time you get more turns of anarchy, I've turned 5 into 8 before (on ). I only recommend doing it when you get say 6+ turns. Of course some may say its a little exploitive.

Smackster

Megalou said:

Are you sure you shaved off a turn? The turn switch occurs after the computer has gone through all the build orders of the cities - at least that's when the year changes in the lower right corner. Maybe you checked your anarchy period the second time when one turn had passed? I don't want to be a kill-joy, just want to be sure if this trick really works.

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I'm having the same doubts myself. It's allways 5/4 or 4/3 turns when i try this trick. The anarchy RNG is probably the worst of all the random elements in this game....

editSmackster: Thanks for clearing that up. Guess I've been lucky/unlucky with my attempts then...

D.K. said:

i think u should read his post more carefully

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I just read his post more carefully, and I think it's your turn now D.K. . After Gozpel's worker stopped daydreaming he said:

Gozpel said:

I settled on the spot and built 2 curraghs and then settler. Found the second city on the river next to the silks, which after a settler who finally got the cow, continued with a granary.

1000bc I had an even dozen towns.

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Note the bold!