This is for Christians. What Bible Version do you use

What version of the Bible do you use?

  • KJV

    Votes: 23 41.1%
  • NIV

    Votes: 21 37.5%
  • NASB

    Votes: 6 10.7%
  • RSV

    Votes: 3 5.4%
  • NLT

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • ESV

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • NKJV

    Votes: 5 8.9%
  • CEV

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ASV

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 15 26.8%

  • Total voters
    56
CurtSibling said:
The 'truth'?
Isn't that what religionists always claim to be privy to?

Well, they're not the only ones, are they? ;-)

CurtSibling said:
Well - While your research efforts are indeed worthy -
The real level of revisionism in history is nigh-impossible to gauge now.

No matter what you deem to be the truth.

I hope you're not asking to re-open the debate about your Biblical conspiracy theories - that would certainly send this thread flying off-topic...

Classical Hero, no-one knows who the author of Luke-Acts was. There is no reason to suppose it was Luke the companion of Paul.

And the texts cited prove nothing. 2 Tim 3:16 simply says that Scripture is inspired by God and "useful" for a variety of things. But what does "inspired by God" actually mean? It doesn't mean that God used the Biblical authors as instruments, as pagans believed about Homer and Hesiod. It seems a pretty vague thing to say. And as for "useful" - well, so's Augustine's "Enchiridion", but I don't see anyone arguing that that is divinely inspired.

Again, 2 Pet 1:20-21 - what does "moved by the Holy Spirit" mean? Wordsworth was "moved" by daffodils to write a poem, but no-one thinks the daffodils wrote it. Perhaps it just meant that the authors felt "moved" by their experiences of God to write them down. Perhaps that's what "inspired" means in 2 Tim as well.

In any case - when these authors refer to "Scripture", what do you think they're talking about? They're talking about the Old Testament, certainly not the New. 2 Tim is thought to be one of the latest New Testament books to be written, and 2 Pet is actually the latest of all, probably dating from some time in the second century (note that it plagiarises Jude) - but still there is no evidence that the authors are thinking of what we think of as the New Testament when they talk about Scripture. In fact, which books counted as the Bible hadn't been fixed yet and wouldn't be for many decades to come. Jews and pagans alike of the time tended to treat any very ancient (or supposedly very ancient) books as "Scripture" - which is why Homer was so venerated. They did not draw clear lines between "Scripture" and "non-Scripture" that modern Protestants do. So the authors of these texts would probably be thinking of all ancient Jewish books, including the ones Protestants consider apocryphal but which are part of the Catholic Bible.

And finally - why believe that these texts are actually true, unless you already believe the Bible to be true? I don't see why I should take the word of the author of 2 Tim as fact - especially when he was dishonest anyway, writing under the name of Paul! (All scholars unanimously agree that the Pastoral Epistles - 1 Tim, 2 Tim, Titus - are the work of a later author who knew little of Paul's actual theology.) The Koran also claims to be the word of God, but it doesn't follow that it actually is. In fact, I'd say it has a better claim to be God's word than the Bible - at least it's something of a literary unity, consisting solely (in theory) of the revelations given to the Prophet. As Stapel rightly points out, the Bible's a mishmash of all kinds of stuff. If I were God and I were going to give humanity a definitive statement, I wouldn't do it like that. I think Stapel's conclusions about the Bible are completely right.
 
Plotinus said:
I think Stapel's conclusions about the Bible are completely right.
:hatsoff:

Plotinus,
Finally there is someone that feels the same way about it. The Bible is a very varied and very interesting book, that becomes even more and more interesting when trying to explain its existance from a non-theistic/neutral/historical view.
 
:mad: ;) I read the one with the most convenient translation :hmm:
 
@classical hero
The point I was making is that since the Scriptures were written by Jews thinking about things with a Jewish mindset, then that is the approach one should take with regard to reading and interpretation of Scripture. Any other mindset will allow for things to be taken out of context.

Originally posted by Plontinus
In any case - when these authors refer to "Scripture", what do you think they're talking about? They're talking about the Old Testament
Yes, yes, and yes. During the 1st Century, there were no other Scriptures around other than the Jewish Tanak. So when writers in the "New Testament" refer to Scripture, they are referring to the Tenak, or what Christians would call the Old Testatment (although there are some differences between the two).
 
As promised, here are some examples of biased and dangerously misleading mistranslations in the New International Version of the Bible. Sorry it took me a while to come back with this but I don’t have immediate access to a copy of the NIV, and I’m very pleased about it!

You can read the preface to the New International Version at http://www.gospelcom.net/ibs/niv/background.php

Note that the project was initiated by “committees from the Christian Reformed Church and the National Associations of Evangelicals”. It claims that since scholars were from many different backgrounds, there was no sectarian bias. The churches named are “Anglican, Assemblies of God, Baptist, Brethren, Christian Reformed, Church of Christ, Evangelical Free, Lutheran, Mennonite, Methodist, Nazarene, Presbyterian, Wesleyan”. All of these are Protestant, and most of them are evangelical or contain strong evangelical wings. Again, we are told that “the translators were united in their commitment to the authority and infallibility of the Bible as God's Word in written form”. In other words, they were fundamentalists.

You can find some more information on the NIV at http://www.bible-researcher.com/niv.html which cites a couple of biased translations. It also talks about the fact that many hardline conservatives (almost exclusively in America, where the Authorised Version of the Bible is still revered by many) also hate the NIV and think it doesn’t go far enough in its conservatism. Very peculiar people (they assume that the King James Bible is the standard, not the original text in the original languages) and proof that the poor old NIV translators have managed to alienate people on both sides. I’d almost feel sorry for them if they hadn’t made such a dodgy translation.

Here are a few examples of mistranslation in the New International Version. They are all from the New Testament, because I know it much better than the Old Testament and in any case I don’t know Hebrew at all.

For each of these verses, I’ve given a literal translation of my own (based on “The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament” by A. Marshall, London: Bagster 1958), followed by the RSV version of the text, then the NIV, and then an explanation of what’s going on.


Matthew 26:63-64

Literal – And the high priest said to him, “I demand of you, by God the living, that you tell us if you are the Christ, the son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You say – yet I say to you, from now you will see the son of the man sitting on the right of the power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

RSV – And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

NIV – The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

This is from Jesus’ trial before the high priest shortly before his crucifixion. The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Messiah or Christ. Jesus answers, “You say… yet I say…” This formulation in Greek (“plen” – “yet”) means something like “but on the contrary”, so Jesus is saying here, “That is what *you* say, but *I*, on the contrary, say this…” In other words, Jesus is essentially denying that he is the Christ, and instead talks about the Son of Man. The NIV has completely changed the meaning to make it seem that Jesus agrees with the high priest calling him Christ, rather than disagreeing with it. The Greek for the first part of Jesus’ answer is just two words – “su eipas” – “you say”. Where has this “Yes” come from? (This is an odd verse anyway, since the parallels in the other Synoptics contradict it. See Mark 14:62, where Jesus really does claim to be the Christ, and Luke 22:70, where he dodges the question. The NIV also mistranslates the Luke passage to make it seem that Jesus claims to be Christ.) Obviously, the translators of the NIV (1) want to make different texts that refer to the same event agree with each other, because they can’t accept the notion of there being anything in the Bible that isn’t true and (2) want to make the Bible say that Jesus is the Messiah. So, irrespective of what’s actually in the Bible, they do that by completely making up new text for it.


Romans 1:1-4

Literal – Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called an apostle, separated to the Gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in holy writings about his son, born from the seed of David according to the flesh, appointed son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness by a resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ the lord of us.

RSV – Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, he gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our lord.

NIV- Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God – the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God, by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is the opening of Paul’s letter to the Romans, and scholars agree that this passage is actually an earlier statement of Christian faith that Paul has put right at the start of his letter to show that he and the Roman Christians believe the same thing (Paul had not met this church before he wrote to them). In other words, this is a very old doctrinal statement, one that predates Paul himself. It seems to suggest that Jesus started off as a normal human being, but at his resurrection became something else – “the Son of God in power”. This is what’s sometimes called a “two-stage Christology” – the idea that Jesus’ nature changes as he goes from an earthly life to a heavenly one. The crucial word in Greek in this passage is “horizein”, which I translated as “appointed”. Does it mean that Jesus actually *became* the Son of God at his resurrection (classic two-stage Christology) or does it mean that he was *always* the Son of God, even before, and it was only at this point that he was *recognised* to be Son of God? The latter interpretation would be more in line with later understandings of Christ, which would become orthodox. According to those, Jesus was always fully human and also fully divine. The “two stages” of earlier belief were replaced by “two natures”. And we find that the NIV translates “horizein” simply as “declared” – implying this interpretation. In other words, they have changed the meaning of this verse to fit in with later theology. In fact, “horizein” always means “appoint” or “designate”, both in the New Testament and in other contemporary writings. To be fair, the NIV does have a note at the bottom saying “or ‘was appointed to be the Son of God with power’”, which is more accurate. But they relegate the correct translation to a footnote and have the inaccurate, biased one in the main text. That’s not very helpful. Anyone without the Greek to hand – which is presumably most readers – would assume that the version in the main text is the most likely translation, or the one that most accurately conveys the meaning of the Greek.


Romans 3:25

Literal - …for a showing of his righteousness because of passing by the previously occurring sins in the forbearance of God…

RSV – This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins….

NIV – He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished…

Now this is a biggie, even though it might seem pretty incomprehensible. Paul is talking about Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. He is saying that, in the past (that is, before Christ), God did not deal with sins, but now by sacrificing Christ he has proved that he is indeed righteous (presumably, although this is not explicit, by dealing with those past sins after all, and by providing a means to salvation for everyone now).

There are two subtle mistranslations here in the NIV. The first is of “dikaiosunes”, which I have translated “righteousness”. This is the usual meaning of the word (it has moral overtones). However, no-one completely agrees on what it means here – in fact there is a vast literature arguing about just this one word (it is a word that reappears frequently in Romans and elsewhere in Paul and is clearly very important for understanding his theology). Basically, Greek words with the “dik-” root originally meant “in accordance with custom”. That is, you had “dikaiosunes” if you were “right” – if you fitted in. But in Judaism, the word took on a new meaning, because the authors of the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) used it to translate Hebrew words of the “sdk” group, which similarly mean conforming to a social norm. These words can also mean conforming to the norm of government – that is, justice – and also the norm of God – that is, being right with God. And so the Greek “dik-” words took on this meaning within Judaism too – and hence within Christianity as well. In other words, if you see a word beginning with “dik-” in the New Testament, you know that it could mean one of a range of things. However, in the context of God, it generally seems to have moral overtones. That is, it means doing what is right, being right, fitting in, being all right with God.

(This, incidentally, is quite apart from another massive controversy over what Paul means when he says that God gives people “dikaiosunes”. Does he mean he actually changes them so that they become “right”, or simply that he chooses to treat them as if they are “right” without actually doing anything to them? But that’s an argument for another day.)

The RSV goes for “righteousness” while the NIV goes for “justice”. As I’ve suggested, in this sort of context (God) “righteousness” is probably a better translation. “Justice” is how you would translate “dikaiosunes” in a legal or political context. But “dikaiosunes” has already cropped up several times in Paul’s argument in Romans, and each time it is clearly talking about the relationship between human beings and God. Compare, for example, “dikaios” in Romans 1:13 – which even the NIV translates “righteous”. Again, see 3:5, where the NIV correctly talks about “our unrighteousness”. Obviously these verses are talking about immoral behaviour making people out of kilter with God – there is no notion here of what we would think of as “injustice”, which is a more specific kind of immoral phenomenon.

The second and more blatant mistranslation in Romans 3:15 is “paresin”, “passing by”. The RSV correctly translates this as “passed over”, but the NIV inexplicably goes for “left... unpunished”.

To understand why these are misleading, and what they are doing there, you need to know two important things. The first is that conservative evangelicals, such as the translators of the NIV, believe that Christ’s death was a divine punishment. They believe that God’s justice demanded that he punish everybody’s sins, so he transferred those sins to Christ (himself, of course, since Christ was God) and punished him *in our place*. The demands of cosmic justice were therefore met and humanity could get away scot-free.

The second thing you need to know is that, historically, this is a minority view among Christians. Nobody believed it before the Middle Ages and not many people believed it before the Reformation. After the Reformation, however, it became very popular among Protestants (largely because Calvin and his immediate successors developed and preached it) – to such an extent that many Protestants today genuinely believe it to be a central doctrine of Christianity. It is not: what is central to Christianity is that Christ, in his life and death, provides the means to salvation. But there is no “official explanation” of how this works. The notion that Jesus was punished in our place is one such explanation, but not the only one. Throughout history, different Christians have believed all kinds of different explanations for how salvation is possible through Christ. And if you want to know Paul’s, read Romans 6, where he explains that through faith in Christ we become united to him: therefore, when he dies, we sort of die as well – a spiritual death, which allows us to escape from sin. Because Christ was raised from the death, our union with him means that we too will be raised from the dead and live a new life. No mention of divine justice or punishment there.

Back to this verse. By using the word “justice”, the NIV suggests that dealing with sins is a legal matter rather than a moral one, as “righteousness” (and the preceding two chapters of Romans) would suggest. That ties in very closely with the “punishment” theory – the idea that the basic way of dealing with sin is to punish it, that sin is a problem for “justice” to deal with. And the NIV backs that up with its use of the word “punished” in reference to sins of the past. In other words, the NIV is teaching that God’s justice demands that sins be punished – but God did not punish sins in the past. Now, however, he has dealt with sin, and we can see that he is just after all. The implication, of course, is that he has dealt with sin by punishing it after all – by punishing it in the person of Christ.

In other words, what we have here is a subtle but very definite mistranslation of the passage to support the conservative evangelical doctrine of the atonement.
 
Romans 7:5, 18, 25; 8:3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12 – in all of these verses, the NIV translates the word “sarx” – meaning “flesh” – as “the sinful nature” or similar. No-one knows precisely what Paul means by “sarx” in these contexts but it is something distinct from “hamartia” or “sin”, although clearly related to it. It could, perhaps, mean “human nature”, although that is disputed. In any case, “sinful nature” it isn’t.


Romans 9:5

Literal – (from the Jews came) the Christ according to the flesh; the one over all, God, be blessed to the ages, amen.

RSV - …of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.

NIV - …from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, for ever praised! Amen.

This is a notoriously ambiguous verse. Since Paul doesn’t use punctuation, it’s not clear whether “the Christ” and “God” are distinct subjects in the sentence, or if they are both meant to refer to the same thing. The RSV goes for the former, the NIV for the latter. However, I think that most scholars agree that the former is by far the more likely. Nowhere else in any of his letters does Paul even hint that Christ is to be identified with God, and you’d think that if he believed that he would have made it a little clearer. Of course, the NIV translators believe that Christ is God, so they make Paul say the same thing. Again, they give a translation similar to the RSV’s as an alternative in the footnote, but favour the less likely one in the main text.


1 Corinthians 6:9

Literal – …nor the soft, nor the “arsenokoitai”…

RSV – “…homosexuals…”

NIV – “…nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders…”

This is a notoriously difficult passage to translate. It’s part of one of Paul’s lengthy list of “sinners” who will not get into the Kingdom of Heaven. The two words here are “malakoi”, which literally means “soft”, and “arsenokoitai”, which is actually a completely new word, unknown anywhere before Paul used it here, and unknown after him except in discussions of this passage. What does it mean? It’s usually translated something like “sodomite” – that is, a homosexual. That’s a little odd given that there were plenty of words for gay people in Greek, none of which Paul chooses to use here – perhaps it is an insulting word, something like “buggerer”. It’s often suggested that “arsenokoitai” means those who, shall we say, take the active role in gay sex, whilst “malakoi” means the passive partner, but really there is no evidence for this. “Malakoi” might mean effeminacy or luxuriousness, but doesn’t appear to have explicitly homosexual overtones. The RSV translation isn’t enormously good here, since it just ignores “malakoi” completely and makes it “homosexuals”. But the NIV is way out. Where did these “male prostitutes” come from? And there is no word in the Greek that suggests “offenders”.

Philippians 2:5-7

Literal – …Christ Jesus, who in the form of God existing, did not think it robbery to be equal with God, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in the likeness of human beings…

RSV – …Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

NIV - …Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Another traditional text which Paul has worked into his letter – in fact it may well have been a very early Christian hymn, and the NIV is right to print it as verse. However, it’s completely wrong to translate the word “morphe” as “nature”. It means “shape” or “form”, meaning how something appears to be. The text says that Jesus appeared divine, and was then born and appeared human. It says nothing about what he actually *was* at any point, only how he appeared. (Note that verse 9 supports the “two-stage Christology” I mentioned early, and suggests that Jesus was only exalted later, after his death.) The usual Greek word for “nature” is “phusis” and that does not appear here. In other words, the NIV has again mistranslated this verse to make it fit in with their theological understanding of Christ. Again, it adds “or ‘the form’” as a footnote, as if this were a minor variation rather than the actual meaning of the word.

Titus 2:13

Literal - …expecting the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of the great God, and our saviour, Christ Jesus.

RSV - …awaiting our blessed hope, the appearance of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

NIV - …while we wait for the blessed hope – the glorious appearing of our great God and saviour, Jesus Christ.

This is another ambiguous verse like Rom 9:5 dealt with above (note that Titus, however, is not by Paul, although it claims Pauline authorship). There are three possible interpretations –
(1) We await the glory of God, and God is the same person as our saviour Jesus Christ.
(2) We await the glory of God, and we also await Jesus Christ, our saviour (who is someone distinct)
(3) We await the glory of God, and Jesus Christ our saviour is identical with the glory of God, which is something distinct from God himself.

That is, this verse could be identifying God and Jesus, it could be distinguishing between them, or it could be distinguishing between God and his “glory” and identifying Jesus with the latter. Distinguishing between God himself and his various attributes was increasingly common in Judaism between the writing of the two Testaments – so you could talk about God’s Wisdom or his Power or his Glory as if they were sort of semi-independent beings. In fact, it was exactly this sort of thing that would later help Christians to understand how Jesus could reflect God’s greatness and act on his behalf without actually being identical to the Father. Grammatically speaking, the first option probably makes most sense as the meaning of this verse, although the others are perfectly possible. The RSV gives the first option but notes alternatives in the footnote. The NIV also goes for the first option, but doesn’t give any footnotes to suggest that it’s only a possible translation.

2 Peter 1:1

Literal - …in righteousness of our God and our saviour Jesus Christ.

RSV – …in the righteousness of our God and saviour Jesus Christ.

NIV – …through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Exactly the same situation again – is the author identifying Jesus with God or simply mentioning them both? There’s no way to tell from the text, although to be fair 2 Peter is the last book of the New Testament to be written – from the second century, probably – and so it is that much more likely that the author has a “later” doctrine of Jesus, possibly identifying him with God. In any case, the RSV plumps for “identification” whilst giving the alternative in a footnote, whilst the NIV has no footnote once again.


These are just a few examples of mistranslation, which I found basically by looking at verses that I knew to be controversial, or which I suspected an evangelical translator might be tempted to mistranslate, and then checking them against the Greek. There are probably many others, but I don’t know the NIV well enough to find them, and I certainly don’t have the time! You may well be able to find others on the Internet if you look. But hopefully these few examples will be enough to make the general point.

In sum: the New International Version is a very bad translation of the Bible. That’s a shame because often it’s not bad at all. Much of the time it seems quite accurate in conveying the meaning of the text, and it’s certainly easy to read. But on many occasions, as in the examples I’ve given here, it is dangerously misleading. Anyone relying on the NIV to tell them what the Bible says is going to come away with a subtle but significant set of misunderstandings – not only about what the Bible says but, by implication, about what Christianity teaches. The NIV imposes onto the Bible the theological outlook of its translators, who represent a single point of view within Christianity – the fundamentalist one. That means that the NIV is worthless except as a source for finding out what fundamentalists think the Bible says.

So if you want an easy-to-read translation of the Bible, I would recommend the Good News Bible, which is even more of a paraphrase than the NIV (often, it is very much a paraphrase and not a translation at all), but I think it does a pretty good and honest job and is more easy to read anyway. If you want a translation that accurately reflects what the Bible says, that is as close to the original text as possible whilst still being readable, then go for the Revised Standard Version or the New Revised Standard Version. As the name suggests, it’s the standard version. It’s not perfect but it’s a vast improvement over the NIV. The New English Bible is also a good translation and is often used as an alternative to the NRSV.
 
Plotinus said:
1 Corinthians 6:9

Literal – …nor the soft, nor the “arsenokoitai”…

RSV – “…homosexuals…”

NIV – “…nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders…”

This is a notoriously difficult passage to translate. It’s part of one of Paul’s lengthy list of “sinners” who will not get into the Kingdom of Heaven. The two words here are “malakoi”, which literally means “soft”, and “arsenokoitai”, which is actually a completely new word, unknown anywhere before Paul used it here, and unknown after him except in discussions of this passage. What does it mean? It’s usually translated something like “sodomite” – that is, a homosexual. That’s a little odd given that there were plenty of words for gay people in Greek, none of which Paul chooses to use here – perhaps it is an insulting word, something like “buggerer”. It’s often suggested that “arsenokoitai” means those who, shall we say, take the active role in gay sex, whilst “malakoi” means the passive partner, but really there is no evidence for this. “Malakoi” might mean effeminacy or luxuriousness, but doesn’t appear to have explicitly homosexual overtones. The RSV translation isn’t enormously good here, since it just ignores “malakoi” completely and makes it “homosexuals”. But the NIV is way out. Where did these “male prostitutes” come from? And there is no word in the Greek that suggests “offenders”.

Hard to say indeed, but we can explain some of it from the usual ways to go in that time in Greece.

I was taught that homosexual relationships in the form of loving couples living together was simply not common in those days.
It was common though, for rich men, to pay the poor parents of young men/boys, in return for their son's sexual services.

From this point of view, we can simply conclude that Paul was talking about male prostitution, as it was the most common way of homosexual contacts in those days, in those area.

Drifting off topic a bit. When reading over and over again the Genisis story about Sodom:
Did God burn the place to punish homosexuals? Or to punish the inhospitals?
We simply can't say!
 
Well, I understand that in first-century Rome, gay relationships were fairly common, but tended to be "behind the scenes". And it was considered a bit shameful to be the "passive" partner. So Julius Caesar, for example, was married, but had gay lovers - and people mocked him because he was "a man in the Senate but a woman in the bedroom". Certainly, prostitution was not the only kind of homosexual contact that went on at this time. Of course, Jews denounced the whole thing - the list of "sins" that Paul gives is a standard Jewish list of "typical sins" of Gentiles, although as I say the word "arsenokoitai" is a neologism.

We're not told what the sin of the Sodomites was at all. Tradition has often assumed that it was homosexuality and taken their name as an abusive term for homosexuals, but in fact the Bible is silent on the matter.
 
Plotinus said:
Well, I understand that in first-century Rome, gay relationships were fairly common, but tended to be "behind the scenes". And it was considered a bit shameful to be the "passive" partner. So Julius Caesar, for example, was married, but had gay lovers - and people mocked him because he was "a man in the Senate but a woman in the bedroom". Certainly, prostitution was not the only kind of homosexual contact that went on at this time. Of course, Jews denounced the whole thing - the list of "sins" that Paul gives is a standard Jewish list of "typical sins" of Gentiles, although as I say the word "arsenokoitai" is a neologism.
Paul was from Tarsus, The letter was meant for the Corinthians. Though it is highly speculative, my best guess would be to search 'the answer' in Greece.
What I know from (mostly earlier) Greek habits, is that the 'passive one' usually had age 15, and the active one usually 40+.

Even if not, 'behind the scene' raltionship usually are not based on equal mutual respect. Compare it with Clinton/Lewinsky, and you get my point ;) .

We're not told what the sin of the Sodomites was at all. Tradition has often assumed that it was homosexuality and taken their name as an abusive term for homosexuals, but in fact the Bible is silent on the matter.
From a historical point of view, the lack of hospitality seems the most plausible to me.
 
Originally posted by Plontinus
Of course, Jews denounced the whole thing - the list of "sins" that Paul gives is a standard Jewish list of "typical sins" of Gentiles, although as I say the word "arsenokoitai" is a neologism.
Of couse he denounced such things. He was a Jew afterall. And that same list of sins can be found within the Torah.
Originally posted by Stapel
From a historical point of view, the lack of hospitality seems the most plausible to me.
If you actually go back and look at the story closely, you will find that both Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their wickedness.
 
Stapel said:
Drifting off topic a bit. When reading over and over again the Genisis story about Sodom:
Did God burn the place to punish homosexuals? Or to punish the inhospitals?
We simply can't say!

It was refering to general sexual sins, not specificly homosexuality.
 
The Bibles I read are 'Catholic centered,' except one. Other than that, I don't know the versions.
 
This is another long post.
Plotinus said:
Well, I understand that in first-century Rome, gay relationships were fairly common, but tended to be "behind the scenes". And it was considered a bit shameful to be the "passive" partner. So Julius Caesar, for example, was married, but had gay lovers - and people mocked him because he was "a man in the Senate but a woman in the bedroom". Certainly, prostitution was not the only kind of homosexual contact that went on at this time. Of course, Jews denounced the whole thing - the list of "sins" that Paul gives is a standard Jewish list of "typical sins" of Gentiles, although as I say the word "arsenokoitai" is a neologism.

We're not told what the sin of the Sodomites was at all. Tradition has often assumed that it was homosexuality and taken their name as an abusive term for homosexuals, but in fact the Bible is silent on the matter.
The Bible does say what the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was. Let me quote some Bible verses.
Genesis 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
The word know is the most important word in this verse. Here is this word again, but in a different tense only.
Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
It is obvious that the word know can be used in a sexual context. THe word in Hebrew is Yada'. This word means to know in an experiental way. It is an intimate word. Sexual contact is always intimate and this is the best word to use for such contact. Thus it is clear that the men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the Angels. Angels in the Bible only came in the form of men when they wanted to communicate with humans. Clearly their sin was that of homosexuality. Another list of sins that include homosexuality as one of them is found in Romans
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet
.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Again, Homosexuality is one of the sins listed here, and it gets an explaination. The Bible is clear that Homosexuality is a sin. It goes against marriage since we see that God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, or Adiele and Eve. Let the Bible speak for itself and it shows that Homosexuality is a sin. This is a bit off topic, but since this has been discussed, I'll talke about it.
 
Well, I don't think it would be right to turn this thread into one about the Bible's views on homosexuality, but I would say that the verses quoted from Genesis don't prove by any means that the Sodomites' sin was homosexuality. Obviously they *were* engaging in homosexual activity but it's not obvious that that is their sin. On the contrary, as Stapel said, they were commiting a sin of inhospitality by demanding to shag the guests. Obviously they were pretty unpleasant people and obviously they were condemned for their "wickedness" but it is far from obvious that their homosexuality was part of that "wickedness". Maybe if the guests had been female and the Sodomites had behaved in the same way, they would have been condemned just as much.

Besides all that, if you look at Gen 19:13, the angels say that they were sent by God to destroy Sodom, suggesting that this was going to happen anyway before they even got there and the mob tried to rape them. In other words, Sodom was condemned for its wickedness before the angels even got there. So what happened in that incident doesn't seem very relevant.

Again, Rom 1:26-27 makes no mention of Sodom, so you really can't appeal to that as evidence for why it was destroyed.
 
Incidentally, you're on shaky ground in appealing to Adam and Eve as evidence for the Bible's supposed support of heterosexuality. You'll notice that they only "know" (as the AV coyly puts it) each other after being expelled from the Garden. For centuries, Christians inferred from this that sexuality was a kind of afterthought on God's part, and the product of sin, and that Adam and Eve were definitely not to be taken as the archetype or prototype of a sexual relationship. It's only in recent years that some Christians have tried to use the story to oppose homosexuality.

I'd also add that the passage from Romans 1 condemns not homosexuality per se, but those who give up "natural" relations with the opposite sex and turn instead to their own sex - that is, not people who are naturally homosexual, but those who are naturally heterosexual but engage in homosexual behaviour anyway (a common phenomenon in the ancient world). You couldn't apply such verses to gay people today because being gay is entirely natural for them - they're not "leaving the natural use of women" because the "use of women" isn't natural for them.

In any case, who cares what that miserable old bugger Paul thought about such things? As NateDawg rightly points out, he's just lifting standard anti-Gentile polemic from the Pharisaic Judaism in which he was brought up.

Anyway, none of this has got much to do with the original point - which is that the NIV translation of that 1 Cor passage leaves an awful lot to be desired. I wouldn't have put the example in if I'd known it would lead everything off topic...
 
NateDawgNY said:
Of couse he denounced such things. He was a Jew afterall. And that same list of sins can be found within the Torah.
Paul was a Jew? I beg to differ. There are quite some strong indications he was not.

If you actually go back and look at the story closely, you will find that both Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their wickedness.
That is exactly what I meant to say. What does wickedness mean?
 
Stapel said:
Paul was a Jew? I beg to differ. There are quite some strong indications he was not.

I'm not sure what those indications would be... Paul was certainly a Jew, and a Pharisee to boot. When he became a Christian he didn't regard that as a conversion to a new religion, rather the fulfilment of the religion he already followed. This is why his letters are full of constant worrying about the status of the Law and the Jews - if you read Romans 9-11, which is really the heart of the letter, he keeps oscillating between the notion that the Jews have an advantage over Gentiles because they are God's people, and the notion that they have no advantage because salvation comes through Christ alone. Both these notions were very dear to Paul and he had a bit of a problem with the fact, because they contradict each other.
 
Plotinus said:
I'm not sure what those indications would be... Paul was certainly a Jew, and a Pharisee to boot. When he became a Christian he didn't regard that as a conversion to a new religion, rather the fulfilment of the religion he already followed. This is why his letters are full of constant worrying about the status of the Law and the Jews - if you read Romans 9-11, which is really the heart of the letter, he keeps oscillating between the notion that the Jews have an advantage over Gentiles because they are God's people, and the notion that they have no advantage because salvation comes through Christ alone. Both these notions were very dear to Paul and he had a bit of a problem with the fact, because they contradict each other.

The idea of Paul not being a Jew lies in the idea he was not meaning a single word he wrote down. A theses that should not be disregarded, in my opinion.
 
Plotinus said:
[Stapel] Sounds like a bit of a conspiracy theory to me! What evidence might there be for that?

First of all, the letters itself:
They are ridiculously pro-Roman. And Paul sais hi to several Roman topshots. Very suspicious.

Second: There are serious holes in Paul's life, which can be explained, when acepting he had a different agenda

Third: Paul was a Roman, working as a tent-maker, probably for the Roman Armies.

Anyway: it indeed is a conspiracy theory. But there is evidence the Romans were capable of creating these conspiracies!
 
Back
Top Bottom