Article O Revisited

Comnenus · Jul 28, 2004

Code:

Article O
The area contained within the national boundaries of [country name] shall
be divided into areas called provinces, each of which is under the
control of a Governor as stated elswhere in this Constitution.  The
boundaries dividing such provinces shall be set as determined by the
congress, and may extend beyond the cultural boundaries.

Here is another Article we need to move forward on. It seems pretty straightfoward to me. Any discussion? I know this is simply a repost of the previous Article, but it works as is IMO.

Cyc · Jul 28, 2004

Article O
The area contained within the national boundaries of Japanatica shall
be divided into areas called provinces, each of which is under the
control of a Governor as stated elswhere in this Constitution.~~ The
boundaries dividing such provinces shall be set as determined by the
congress, and may extend beyond the cultural boundaries.

The bold portions would be removed and/or changed. The first part would have the specific Article named, not "elsewhere in the Constitution". The second part would be replaced with "These boundries must be defined and approved by the House well ahead of expansion, and may extend beyond the cultural boundaries."

Civman2004 · Jul 28, 2004

Here's an out-there thought

What about a ministry of cartography? It seems to me that the boundaries of the provinces are likely to be somewhat fluid. You only have to look at the history of Australia (and, from what I know, the US too) to see this. Also, they are likely to change as various things are uncovered (strategic resources, enemy locations, etc). This will probably take a long time to implement if it is a good idea, but what do people think? One thing that would need to be thought through is various restrictions that the ministry had to operate within, eg
- province must be between x and y squares in land area
- province must contain at least a cities, but no more than b cities
- province must not contain more than 3 areas of land under enemy control.

Thoughts? Comments? Questions?

Octavian X · Jul 28, 2004

Why worry about drawing meaningless lines on maps, worrying about tile count and such? Wouldn't this process be a lot easier if cities were simply listed as members of a province, with no care given to exactly which tiles was where? We'd save a lot of time in the process of organizing provines, I think.

Comnenus · Jul 29, 2004

Octavian X said:
Why worry about drawing meaningless lines on maps, worrying about tile count and such? Wouldn't this process be a lot easier if cities were simply listed as members of a province, with no care given to exactly which tiles was where? We'd save a lot of time in the process of organizing provines, I think.

I think this can be left to the Cartography department, but I see no reason to write any of it into the Constitution.

DaveShack · Jul 29, 2004

Octavian X said:
Why worry about drawing meaningless lines on maps, worrying about tile count and such? Wouldn't this process be a lot easier if cities were simply listed as members of a province, with no care given to exactly which tiles was where? We'd save a lot of time in the process of organizing provines, I think.

This is actually an interesting idea which could remove some of the sources for conflict in the past. The minor drawback is that it takes away some of the psuedo-governmental flavor from the game.

A truly radical idea got tossed out there sometime in the last year. I can't give the proper credit because can't remember who suggested it, or when. What if we elect N=ceiling(# cities / cities per province) governors each term in a multi choice poll, which the top N vote getters being governors, with seniority determined by number of votes. Then the governors pick their cities, highest seniority picking first. This would have the effect of balancing production.

Comnenus · Jul 29, 2004

DaveShack said:
A truly radical idea got tossed out there sometime in the last year. I can't give the proper credit because can't remember who suggested it, or when. What if we elect N=ceiling(# cities / cities per province) governors each term in a multi choice poll, which the top N vote getters being governors, with seniority determined by number of votes. Then the governors pick their cities, highest seniority picking first. This would have the effect of balancing production.

This adds 2 more polls and time for the new Governors to chose cities. The Cartographers could create a map of the proposed provinces at the direction of the Congress. Then you have the normal election for Governors.

That would entail the following change:

Article O
The area contained within the national boundaries of Japanatica shall
be divided into areas called provinces, each of which is under the
control of a Governor as stated elswhere in this Constitution. The
cities constituting such provinces shall be set as determined by the
Congress. A map of the provinces will be created under the direction
of the Congress.

Civman2004 · Jul 29, 2004

slightly off topic alert
I'll relate an experience I had many moons ago, back in the days of Civ I

I used to love Civ I. The problem was, we only had 1 CD, and so did all my friends (couldn't by another CD as we were living in a 3rd world country). So eventually we got together and worked out a way we could play together. What would happen was the first city had to build settlers until each player on the team had a city. From then on, it was every man for himself. What would happen was various states within 1 empire. We made a heap of rules, such as each state had to contribute x units towards the national guard, which was used at the discretion of the national president.

So the national president governed such matters as research, the national guard, treaties, etc, but any units owned by the provinces were at the discretion of that province.

We also kept track of how much of the treasury was being sourced from each province, and 'split' the treasury into different parts for rush building, etc. Any cities captured by a particular province became part of that province. Provinces could loan money or units to other provinces. It was a bit of work, but really enjoyable, especially with no multiplayer option.

back on topic
I guess the gist of the above though is what if we started to give the provinces a little bit more autonomy?

But going back to Octavian's suggestion that the provinces simply be a list of cities, I do see one drawback:

How do we decide which province a new city is part of? Especially if we had provinces with large gaps between cities, what happens to one placed in the middle. With no borders, there could be a fight over ownership

(I must admit I like the idea of looking at a map and seeing provinces laid out, which is probably biasing me against Octavian's very practical idea)

But if we were going to move towards more autonomy for the provinces there would be great value in maintaining actual borders. Not saying we should be going in such a direction, it's just a suggestion. By giving more responsibility to the governers, we increase the value not only of holding cities, but also of holding pieces of land, and of defending that land, or at least making it more easily defensible.

Edit: oh, and I'm a fan of the idea of all governatorial elections being in a 'pool' - it means we could have 1 nomination per citizen, and still give people a decent chance in an election. Perhaps such an election would be best done by giving people multiple (say up to n, where n is the number of provinces) votes - can that be done?

Comnenus · Jul 29, 2004

Civman2004 said:
slightly off topic alert
...what if we started to give the provinces a little bit more autonomy?

The feeling I have been getting around the DG forum is less autonomy, less power to the leadership. Perhaps there have been problems in the past with leaders not being too democratic.

How do we decide which province a new city is part of? Especially if we had provinces with large gaps between cities, what happens to one placed in the middle. With no borders, there could be a fight over ownership

The modified form of the Article posted above, if it were accepted, would have the cities assigned to provinces by the Congress, ie, the citizenry.

Edit: oh, and I'm a fan of the idea of all governatorial elections being in a 'pool' - it means we could have 1 nomination per citizen, and still give people a decent chance in an election. Perhaps such an election would be best done by giving people multiple (say up to n, where n is the number of provinces) votes - can that be done?

I would support a system where a candidate runs for a particular province. That way you can vote for the better candidates for the best provinces and give a chance to unproven people in lesser provinces. However, I am certain a multiple vote system could be set up. We've already had at least one poll where multiple votes were allowed (turn chat time).

Civman2004 · Jul 29, 2004

Yeah - but that poll you could vote for as many as you wanted. This one we would have to limit the number of votes you could do - which could be a bit trickier

oh, good to see you agree with me so wholeheartedly on the other issues

Comnenus · Jul 29, 2004

If there are no objections, I will add the changes to this Article that I listed above (post #7).

Comnenus · Jul 30, 2004

Having been duly informed by the right honorable Chief Justice that I posted an illegal poll for this Article (no notice given of a proposed poll), I am taking care of that obligation now. The previous poll is closed out (or will be soon I assume). Following is the text of the proposed article for the proposed poll.

Code:

Article O
The area contained within the national boundaries of Japanatica shall
be divided into areas called provinces, each of which is under the
control of a Governor as stated elswhere in this Constitution. The
cities constituting such provinces shall be set as determined by the
Congress. A map of the provinces will be created under the direction
of the Congress.

Please note that this proposed article makes only a minor change in the article originally polled and defeated (though overwhelmingly supported). I propose that this proposed article go forward to the proposed poll. Discussion will be open for at least 24 hours.

Cyc · Jul 30, 2004

Well, in my original comment, I suggested that instead of saying the control of Governors is stated "elsewhere in the Constitution", we actually say " in Article E. of the Constitution". This would make the readers lean in the direction of thinking that we actually knew what we were talking about.

Also in Proposed Article E. you state the following The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and admendments to the Constitution.
a.The House will present all proposed Articles and Amendments and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.

Here you call them the Congress. Is this some attempt at confusing the citizens or some hidden way of helping them understand who they are and what functions they perform? In my original comment, I included the term House and as it is used in Article E, I would think that we should use it here also. And as our Provincial borders should be drawn up well ahead of time and should not be confined within our national borders, I suggest we include this statement ~ "These boundries must be defined and approved by the House well ahead of expansion, and may extend beyond the cultural boundaries."

"A map of the provinces will be created under the direction of the Congress." is not really a true statement. The House isn't going to worry about maps unless no one creates them. The Cartographic Office will direct the creation of the maps. The House will direct and approve the Provincial borders by means of polling. So wording regarding these thoughts should be used.

Comnenus · Jul 30, 2004

Cyc said:
Also in Proposed Article E. you state the following The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and admendments to the Constitution.
a.The House will present all proposed Articles and Amendments and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.

Here you call them the Congress. Is this some attempt at confusing the citizens or some hidden way of helping them understand who they are and what functions they perform?

Actually, that was just an anachronism, and an oversight on my part. The originals of both referred to the Congress, and in making updates only Article E got changed. Whether they are called the Congress or the House of the People is immaterial, but I agree that the terminology needs to be consistent in both articles.

Comnenus · Jul 30, 2004

Code:

Article O with changes
The area contained within the national boundaries of Japanatica shall
be divided into areas called provinces, each of which is under the
control of a Governor as stated in Article E. of the Constitution.  
	1.The House will direct and approve the Provincial borders by 
                means of polling. 
	2.The Cartographic Office will be responsible for the creation
                of the maps.

Is this what you had in mind?

Cyc · Jul 30, 2004

Comnenus said:

Code:

Article O with changes proposed by Cyc
The area contained within the national boundaries of Japanatica shall
be divided into areas called provinces, each of which is under the
control of a Governor as stated in Article E. of the Constitution.  
	1.The House will direct and approve the Provincial borders by means of polling. 
	2.The Cartographic Office will be responsible for the creation of the maps.

Cyc, is this what you had in mind?

Well, I don't really like numbered items in the Constitutional Articles, let me draft something. You also need to learn how to edit the length of your lines when you use the code tags.

Also, I don't want my name in the Constitution, so please remove it from any of your proposed polls.

Code:

Article O
             The area contained within the national boundaries of Japanatica 
             shall be divided into areas called provinces, each of which 
             is under the control of a Governor as stated in Article E. of the
             Constitution. These boundries must be defined and approved by 
             the House well ahead of expansion, and may extend beyond the 
             cultural boundaries. City locations shall be determined by the 
             Will of the People.

Comnenus · Jul 30, 2004

Sorry, I forgot about the defining in advance and extending across cultural borders.

Enumerated sub-paragraphs were taken almost word for word from your post #13, paragraph 4, above.

I have to go to work now, so I'll only get back occassionally until I'm off.

Comnenus · Jul 31, 2004

I looked at wording the Article a couple of different ways, but decided against it, because everything I was going to say is already succintly put by the last version posted.

It does rely on Article E being ratified in its present form or without any changes that would nullify the relevant phrase. That is the only thing I have against it.

Comnenus · Jul 31, 2004

Code:

Article O
             The area contained within the national boundaries of Japanatica 
             shall be divided into areas called provinces, each of which 
             is under the control of a Governor as stated in Article E. of the
             Constitution. These boundries must be defined and approved by 
             the House well ahead of expansion, and may extend beyond the 
             cultural boundaries. City locations shall be determined by the 
             Will of the People.

This is the latest version of this Article as it would go to the vote. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions for modification?

Comnenus · Jul 31, 2004

There being no further discussion forthcoming on this Article, I will ask for Judicial Review.

Article O Revisited

AKA Kenshin

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Inventor

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Something goes here...

AKA Kenshin

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Looking for the door...

AKA Kenshin

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Looking for the door...

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