Term 3 Judiciary

classical_hero · Oct 9, 2004

This came to my attention after reding blackheart's comment on this poll. [thread]101775[/thread]. Here is what he had to say.

blackheart said:
I am satisfied with the MSAV's work but there is always room for improvement. We need a rapid response system and a system to upgrade our units.

here is my responce to that comment.

classical_hero said:
Upgrading units is Domestics Job. But could that be part of Defence's job?

Domesitic has control over finances, according this from the constitution, article D section 1.

The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be.... ,as well as the distribution of funds, as prescribed by law.

Whereas Defence has control over troops, according to the constitution article D section 3.

The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all military strategy and troop activities, as prescribed by law.

I would think that as part of the military strategy, ungrading would be part of that strategy.

I would therefore like to request a Judical review on who has the powers over upgrades.

Black_Hole · Oct 9, 2004

I dont think upgrades should count as "troop activities"
Thus i believe domestic still has that power

classical_hero · Oct 10, 2004

Black_Hole said:
I dont think upgrades should count as "troop activities"
Thus i believe domestic still has that power

The problem that I have seen is that many people have been asking this in military thread as to why there has been no upgrading. I really want a clarification of this issue. It could be classified as "troop activities" because if you do not have a modern enough army, then wars that are waged are less likely to in our favour and it is an issue regarding troops.

gert-janl · Oct 10, 2004

classical_hero has requested a Judicial Review, concerning article D of the Constitution. He wants to know which official does have the authority over military upgrades.

He refers to article D.1/D.3 of the Japanatican Constitution:

Code:

D.1   The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be responsible for all
domestic initiatives, worker allocation, as well as the distribution
of funds, as prescribed by law. 
...
D.3   The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all military 
strategy and troop activities, as prescribed by law.

The Court decides that this Judicial Review has merit, and marks this Judicial Review as DG5JR22.

Strider · Oct 10, 2004

I think it should be Domestics job to decide if we are going to upgrade units, and how much we should spend on it. It should be military's job to decide what units are upgraded, and where they are upgraded.

gert-janl · Oct 10, 2004

CJ's Ruling DG5JR22

The Constitution isn't very clear about what official has the authority over troop upgrades. But the Constitution is very clear about which official has the authority over the distribution of funds. (namely the domestic minister, as stated in D.1)
So it's constitutionally impossible to let the defense minister decide over upgrades, as they require (lots of) money.
Hence it's the domestic minister who has the authority over troop upgrades.

However, the Minister of Defense remains responsible for the military strategy/state of the military. In order to keep up the strategy and to modernise the National Army, the Minister of Defense is obligated by article D.3 to file requests of upgrades.

So basically, the Minster of Defense should determine if troop upgrades are required, and then file an upgrade-request with the Minister of Domestic Affairs (this can be done preferably via the government forum). The latter will decide whether or not the upgrade will take place.

KCCrusader · Oct 10, 2004

DG5JR22 Submitted by:classical_hero
Regarding Upgrades

Since the Military minister is in charge of all military and strategic objective, as stated by the constitution, he shall have a say in the upgrade process as it pertains to strategy.

Since the Domestic Minister is in charge of all distribution of funds, he shall have a say in the up grade process as it pertains to gold.

In order to satisfy both of these needs, it is necissary to separate the responsibility of upgrading.

Opinion on DG5JR22: The Military minister shall be in charge of suggesting when upgrades are necissary, which units should be upgraded and what barracks will perform the actions.

The Domestic Minister shall be in charge of allocating appropriate funds for the upgrades. The Domestic minister may allocate none, all or some of the upgrading money requested by the Military advisor.

mhcarver · Oct 10, 2004

First a few things that are absolute:
The military Minister is in charge of all military troops and objective

The Domestic Minister is in charge of the distribution of funds.

The upgrading of troops is the distribution of funds and therefore control over troop upgrades goes to the Domestic Minister . The Domestic Minister may accept or deny requests by the Military Minister for upgrades but may not upgrade troops if the Military Minister has not requested it.

Ashburnham · Oct 15, 2004

I have a quick question about constitutional authority. Do I, as the Interim Culture Minister, have the authority to override the building instructions posted by governors.

Specifically, can I interrupt production of something already being built and order a Wonder to be built instead?

Thank you.

mhcarver · Oct 16, 2004

Ashburnham said:
I have a quick question about constitutional authority. Do I, as the Interim Culture Minister, have the authority to override the building instructions posted by governors.

Specifically, can I interrupt production of something already being built and order a Wonder to be built instead?

Thank you.

note this is not an official ruling
In my opinion(I invite the other justices to disagree) you can post instructions that interrupt production to build a wonder but only if it is the Will of the People. IE if you post a poll that approves building a wonder in a city they you may post those instructioms

gert-janl · Oct 16, 2004

Ashburnham, you raise a very good point and I'd love to give my opinion about this issue. (this could have been a JR, don't hesistate to file them in the future if you need clarification!)

Since this is not a Judicial Review, this is not an official ruling, but only my opinion as a citizen posting coincidentally in the Judicial thread.

I disagree with my fellow judge (as he invited me to

) in saying that a minister have the authority to override governor's instructions.
First of all the Constitution is not very clear about the hierarchy of officials. Therefore I allow myself to conclude that when posting instructions every instruction has the same weight, and all need to be followed by the DP. Posting contradicting instructions would therefore be confusing to the DP, as the DP needs to determine what instruction has more citizen support, while that's exactly what the officials have to do!
Having concluded that I want to refer to article E.2.b. which states the following:

Code:

Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities,
and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, 
allocation of laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of citizen
 soldiers.

This clearly gives the governor the authority on instructing the DP with buildqueues. So this can never be done by the Culture Minister.

You're question now is probably what you can do about wonder building. Well, it's your job to decide if wonders will be build, and (mostly after discussing with the responsible governor) more importantly where. Once again, the Constitution doesn't give us a clear bearing who has more authority, the minister of the governor, so you have to agree with each other. Of course the minister ór the governor can show poll results to clarify their opinion, if any discussion between the responsible officials will arise. It's these inter-office discussion that makes the demogame extremely interesting, so I would support to argue in public, instead of spamming each other's PM account which deprives the citizens ánd other officials from a nice rhetorical fight!

Ashburnham · Oct 16, 2004

Thank you mhcarver and gert-janl for your opinions on this matter. But, I'm afraid that-- due to the conflicting opinions of the two justices who answered my question-- I'm going to have to file a judicial review. My question is: Can a ministry override the instructions of a governor when it comes to city production?

gert-janl · Oct 17, 2004

I understand your point, Ashburnham, and since I believe this Review has merit, your request will be added to our agenda.

----
Ashburnham has requested a Judicial Review, concerning the authority of ministers over governors as provided by the Constitution. He wants to know if a minister can override the instructions of a governor when it comes to city production.

The Court believes this Judicial Review has merit, and it will be marked as DG5JR23 in the Court's Docket.

gert-janl · Oct 17, 2004

CJ's Ruling DG5JR23

First of all the Constitution is not very clear about the hierarchy of officials in the government. Therefore I conclude that when posting instructions every instruction has the same weight, and all instructions need to be followed by the DP. Posting contradicting instructions would therefore be confusing to the DP, as the DP needs to determine what instruction has more citizen support, while that's exactly what the officials have to do!
Having concluded that I want to refer to article E.2.b. which states the following:

Code:

Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities,
and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, 
allocation of laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of citizen
soldiers.

This provides the governor with the authority on instructing the DP with city buildqueues. So this can never be done by the Culture Minister.

The question remains what the constitutional task of the Culture Minister is. It's his task to decide if wonders will be build (as provided by article D.6), and (mostly after discussing with the responsible governor) more importantly where. Once again, the Constitution doesn't give us a clear bearing who has more authority, the minister of the governor, so you will have to agree with each other.

mhcarver · Oct 17, 2004

I agree with the Chief Justice on his points that the constitution is vague on the power of the culture minister. This is something that should be fixed in the next demogame. I believe that the Governor has control over build ques as to make sure that someday an overzealous culture minister can't just order every city to build a wonder.So I agree with the CJ on the point that the governor is the authority on all city build ques however The Culture minister is the sole factor in control of wonders. Because of this I believe that the Culture minister can issue binding instructuons overiding a Governors que as long as it is the proven Will of the People

blackheart · Oct 17, 2004

I'd like to file a judicial review about turnchats. Is there a law that enforces when turnchats occur (I don't think there is)? And how can we change or make rules about the turnchats?l

Furiey · Oct 17, 2004

With regard to DG5JR23 there have been several failed attempts/discussion concerning getting override powers added to the constitution, including these (and others around the same time) here:

Citizen Discussion: Reinstate the 'Traditional' powers of MA and CM?
Democratic Proposal: Mutability of Build Queues

gert-janl · Oct 17, 2004

Blackheart said:
I'd like to file a judicial review about turnchats. Is there a law that enforces when turnchats occur (I don't think there is)? And how can we change or make rules about the turnchats?

Since this is a plain question about the procedures, without judicial complications the Court decides that this request has no merit for a Judicial Review.

I will, however, be honoured to answer your question.
No, there is currently no Constitutional Article or even a lower law in our ruleset concerning Turnchats.

About the procedure to be followed to add a new piece of law into either the constitution or our Code of Laws I refer to Constitution Article I.2 and Code of Laws article I

Code:

CoL I. Code of Laws Amendments

1. Altering the Code of Laws requires the proposed change to be presented in a
   discussion thread. When discussion dies down, a proposed poll must be posted 
   at the bottom of the discussion thread and remain there for at least 24 
   hours for review.  During this period, some form of a "Second" and a "Third" 
   must be obtained from at least two citizens other than the bill's author. 
   During this period of review, if any changes are made, the 24 hour review
   period starts over at that time and all "Seconds" and "Thirds" are lost.

2. Once the review period ends, and a "Second" and a "Third" obtained, the
   author of the proposed change may request a Judicial Review, by posting 
   in the Judicial thread. Having passed Judicial Review, the proposed poll
   may be posted in the Poll sub-subforum. The poll must remain open for 72 
   hours.

3. A quorum of 37% of the active census is required for the poll results to be 
   valid. 55% (dropping fractions) of those voting must approve of the proposed 
   change for it to be admitted to the Code of Laws.

I suggest that you write a new Article in the Code of Laws, as it would, in my opinion, fit better there than in the Constitution.

mhcarver · Oct 19, 2004

Has anyone seen the Public Defender around? It's coming up on three days since the last JR was added to the docket and not a peep from him/her :eek:

Black_Hole · Oct 19, 2004

as for JR23, it might be a bit later, but I would like to voice my opinon.
I believe the culture minister has NO power to ovveride a build queue and post an instruction for it. Even if the will of the people is to build a wonder, I believe it isnt the job of the culture minister to post the actual instructions. The culture minister should decide if a wonder is nessecary, but they dont choose(nor can they post instructions about) where the wonder is to be built.

The Culture Miniser is "Responsible for Keeping the Peace and Wonder Construction", this means constructing wonders in general(thus they post the polls/discussions on which wonder to build, but the governor posts the poll/discussion about where to place it, and the governor also posts in the TCIT about that wonder)

Also other ministers shouldnt have the power also..... Since that is the actual question the JR is asking...

Term 3 Judiciary

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Deity

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In Retrospect

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Defending the Holy Land

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King

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King

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unenlightened

No Longer Just Lurking

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