SGOTM8 - Wacken

I haven't opened the save but i was under impression we were supposed to start Copernicus pre-build in Phily like 10-20 turns ago??
I will start it if that is what we want.

Also, shouldn't i start pumping settlers for all those towns we want to build in Chinese land we've conquered.

If i put everything at tax to cancel the effect of library

Washington: 33 commerce.
SF: 29 commerce.
Philly: 31, will be 36 @ size 12.

So Philly benefits most from a science wonder. Also, the other 2 are good to keep building some settlers.
We should give philly full priority on tiles in the surrounding it will then have 12 spt. The prebuild has 30 shields. 31 turns to go.

Astronomy is to be expected in 17 turns if we research it ourselves. If the AI gets Gunpowder in time that we let them research it for us, we might have it in like 25-30 turns. In this last scenario, the timing will be pretty good.

We should not expect to build both the science wonders in philly. Washington should build the other one. For washington we could mine a grassland and 4 plains increasing production to 20. We don't need to start building anything there during the next turnset.

There is the option to do it the other way around, but i just don't know what to expect from the AI on research, so i don't know when we want to finish copernicus. If we the AI is too slow for us to help and we are surely gonna research astronomy ourselves, then we could start the build in the capital right now and have philly complete its current prebuild at 10spt for Newtons in 37 turns.

The settlers for the chinese towns:
If we don't decide to swap wonders, we can skim settlers from Washington and San franciso. These together should provide a settler every 3 turns or so.
The rest of the needed settlers should IMO be build in the captured cities, with a little cash rush if needed. Note, a cash rush costs 4 gold per turn. Settling a new city pays us: 1 wealth + 3 science + 2 unit support, imeadiately paying back for those 4 gold per turn.

The question is, do we expect the AI to research fast enough to have gunpowder in say 18 turns max and then astronomy in 10 turns max ?
If yes, then we are doing good as we are. (philly - 12 spt)
If no, it is better to swap the builds and start a second prebuild in the capital. (philly - 10 spt)

Thank you Wacken, for planning our next couple of turn cycles. I must admit I played my turnset with little thought to the bigger picture. Taking a few Chinese cities was my only object, unfortunately. I agree with your ideas and having this "blueprint" should help us move into the late industrial age. With key techs lined out for us.

My impression is that the AI is rather slow in this game. They have just about researched the first tier techs in MA and we played a long time without any research and will still be able to catch up within a few turns from now.

yes, but what we ask from them is only research at half our speed

We could of course wait a little while. Lets say, if they don't have invention before we have theology, we could start the build for Copernicus in our capital, use the current prebuild for Newtons and just proceed to research ourselves.
If they do have invention before we have theology, then we could just proceed with the current prebuild for copernicus and start Newtons later in the capital (beginning next turnset, about 12 turns from now)

Anyway we do it, we need to mine those tiles for our capital to bring it to 20 shields.

Wacken, I like the tech summary, although I am a little doubtful whether the AI can achieve 8 turn research.

Phili and Washington need universities as well as wonders; I take it we want to start with the wonders in case of the AI beating us.

In fact, look at Rome. They are huge, they have 20% of the worlds population.
They are an emperor AI, they have few happiness problems, they have cheaper research. Probably with 1/4 the commerce we have to do half our research. It would suprise me if their 20% world population is not capable of producing 1/4th our commerce.

They have been able to research invention for some turns now. I feel quite sure they will have it in time for us.

Therefore, i think we should use our current build for copernicus as planned and stat the Newtons prebuild in the capital 20 turns before we expect to need it. That is not in this turn set.

If you guys agree with me here, it comes down to the following points for the near future:

-Make sure to gift or trade eduction before they have gunpowder.
-Continue prebuild at top speed, 12spt.
-Skim settlers from capital and SF, building units in between.
-2 turn worker factories in NY, StDman and Atlanta (start joining our first core cities up to size 11)
-Universities in remaining cities when you feel like starting them.
-Get engineering for peace and a city with the primary intent of getting spices.
-Trade for feudalism, chivalry and invention when available. No big hurry in getting these though. Monotheism can maybe get feudalism, when we get engineering in peace, that may also get something, maybe chivalry. Theology or else Education should get Invention.
-Build more settlers and workers in the captured cities for ICSing.

I agree with the plan, if we move the citizen from the two shield grassland at Boston to the forest across the water Boston will still finish Harbour in two turns but will let Philly work at 12 spt. We can also raise Philly to 13 spt by irrigating two grasslands and let a citizen work the second mountain now used by Boston. There are two worker ready to join Philly now. Let them irrigate the two tiles in three turns before joining Philly.

And hope that China will not cool off on their offer during the turns we have to wait for peace.

Sounds like we have a good plan and i agree with everything above.

Will play my turns tonight..
Research Mono then Theology towards Education...
Start prebuild in Phily. Shave settlers of capital and SF, workers from few other cities.
Wait 8 turns of slow war with possibility of taking a city from China -> make peace and take everything else they are willing to give up.
Collect cash for 2 turns and try to trade Feud from Greece once Mono comes.
Micromanage and try to bring all core cities to pop 12.

For the people with short memory like mine we need to publish a blue print after each turn set... That will help to make sure nobody runs off course

Oh, if only Macao could outgrow Chengdu so we can capture Nanking before peace...

Alan added new graph on the submission page - territory...
Looks interesting... territory wise we are certainly not in the lead.
Looks like Klarius and Co started chipping pieces of China before us.
But at this stage of the game territory doesn't mean much.
By the time of Advanced flight every single team will have home island in their possession.
Good productive core is more important and we have it already.

Ya, it's an interesting game, but i'm afraid that we can't say much about anyones progress until we see anyones territory exceed the limits of the island.

When we are there to conquer the world, maybe its a nice idea to raze the enemy cities rather than to conquer them. That will cover up our progress and the score and territory will then more or less be a horizontal line until victory.

My understanding from the graphs is that we are almost equal with Klarius in land and therefore slightly behind in population (as their score curve is steeper than ours). Klarius clearly have more libraries than us, and as they had a successful slingshot, are likely to be well up in science. The good thing is that we had a faster start, and therefore may well have improved our northern holdings better. If wacken is right the AI could help us research through the middle ages fairly well. Klarius will perhaps try to bankrupt the AI with constant loans (he was always pretty keen on this), so hopefully they won't be able to research as well for his team. If klarius are on 4 turn research well ahead of us, then we may be stuffed.

I guess when the qsc figures emerge, we will have a clearer idea of where we stand.

This all sounds very negative. Sorry about that. We haven't really done anything wrong yet, apart from have the ill luck to fail a slingshot and draw a relatively long anarchy, and may still be OK. I am still hopeful of victory.

I don't think razing all the AI towns in the conquest phase will be practical or desirable: we will need to rush stuff, airlift etc. It is therefore going to be pretty obvious when teams complete research and move into the final phase.

pre-turn: fired sci in boston and put it on sea tile. Managed BOston and Phily to boost production in Phily.
Switched NY to worker. I decided to switch SF to library. We don't need barracks there but we need science and can't have to much of it. We have enough unit building cities to build enough HMs in next 8 turns for the next war with Greece.

T1. 70AD. Eindhoven (strange american city) library -> duct. NY worker->HM. 2 Workers joined Phily. Established city Of Baltimore

T2. 90AD. Washington HM->worker. Mono comes. Greece wants Mono+Horses+Dyes+18GPT+220Gold+WM. I call him crazy b**** and
leave. Go to Atlanta switch to library->cash rush it->switch back to duct in 3 turns. Theology at max possible science in 5 turns, but we run deficit so will run out of money sooner.

T3. 110AD Washington Worker->worker. Boston harbor->HM. Joined workers to Boston and Chicago. ROme has extra WOol but not selling it to us for dyes. Started Mining mountains near New Orleans.

T4. 130AD. IMHO Shanghai will benefit greatly from Court... So i will switch now and then team will decide if we want to turn it back to barracks. NY HM->HM Joined worker to Chicago. Wash. worker->Horse. Seattle horse->horse

T5. 150AD. Atlanta duct->library; Chicago HM->HM. Joined worker to Chicago. Washington HM->Setler. SanFrancisco lib->Settler.

T6. 170AD Theology in 2 turns but i after looking at F4 screen and our balance i sold Mono to Greece and England for pennies sold our WM for 1 to 3 gold a trade but managed to boost sci to 70% and will get Theology next turn with only 3 gold left to support new HM to be built next turn.

T7. 190AD. NY HM->HM. DMan barracks->Worker. Canceled our MA against China. Making peace with China. (BTW, MAcao never outgrew Chengdu so i didn't take Nanking). They only give us 2 towns (Anyang and Shantung) 8gold+WM and no techs. Oh well. We have monopoly on theology. We meet Vikings. They give us WM+214Gold for POlytheism and Literature... Very backward nation. They miss currency and republic.
Japan only gives us WM+8gold for THeology. That means they are very close to research it themselves.. We barely beat them.
It looks like Rome was researching Invention. They give us Feud+45gold+2gpt+WOol+WM for Theology. Pretty much everything they have. I take it. Swap theology for enginering with Elizabeth.
Rome has Invention and Chivalry. Japan has chivalry. We are even or ahead of others.
Started researching Education. We can make it in 5 turns with slight deficit. I can't bring lux slider down to 20% yet
but we should make it as soon as we take over those wines near Athens.
It would be a perfect time for our GAs now when we could have built all those nice markets and universities.
I trully think having late GA is not such a good idea.
I have 10 horses in stack but not sure if that is going to be enough for Athens. More are coming.

Show time=> Declare on Greece. Moving stack of HMs towards Athens and stack of Archers with combat settler towards Sparta

T8. 210AD Washington settler->HM; Boston HM->HM; Chicago HM->HM. Romans are building Leo's. Japs are building Sistine. Joined worker to Atlanta. Attacking Athens.. Lost only 3 horses out of 10 rest retreated. Killed all 4 defending Hoplites, but lousy archer is left in Greek capital and i don't have troops left. Denver founded 2 tiles south of Sparta. Fresh troops arrived to Athens

T9. 230AD. Greek rushed hoplite in Athens. Horse kills hoplite. Horse kills archer. Athens captured.
Our brave archers attack Sparta. We lost 4 archers but Sparta is captured.
San Francisco settler->Settler. We have wines but even with wines i can put lux slider below 30%. We desperately need marketplaces... We could have done 4 turn research already with positive balance if we had markets. I switched Chicago from HM to market... We don't need that many units anyway. Cincinati founded.
Actually after looking more carefully i realized that the boston is the only city that will riot if i go to 20% of lux slider. So i simply put a citizen to sea tile from grass for more gold and now i can run 20% lux.

IBT. Furs deal expired with Rome and i extended it for extra Dyes +wines. Japan demanded 27 gold and i bow
Washington HM=>Marketplace.. I really don't think we need more military than we already have to finish Greece.. It's time for the commerce and improvements. Next war with China long time from now. NY settler->HM. Education comes in 2 turns.

T10 250AD. Move 4 HMs towards Thermopylae. Don't think 4 would be enough so wait a turn for the rest to heal in Cincinnati. Resistance in Athens and Sparta ended. Moving workers around. Xinjan was building temple and it is not needed now. Switched it to Courhouse. feel free to change to anything else. can be settler but settler will be build before pop 3. New Orleans optimized for grow. Boston is a troublesome city need marketplace.
I started markets in 3 of our cities.
Education comes 2 turns from now and i believe we will have monopoly on it.

Our Army has 15 Horsemen, 6 archers, 3 settlers, 17 native workers + 1 warrior i forgot to disband... Lets disband that warrior... don't really need it.
Right now we pay 0 for unit support.

I also suggest to cash rush Library in atlanta and perhaps few ducts in second core.

Maps:




Save

now that research rate is up 4 tech's in that set, and none of them optional 2T from Education to boot, too bad about the Chengdu situation, looks like we need to wait some more. Too bad we couldn't get that town for peace as it would have made the next war a lot simpler.

Well done Dman!

I see no reason not to finish off Greece if we can rush a harbour and few units on the island.

Chengdu, maybe we can put cultural pressure on it? It is a less than certain option but you never know. The Vikings will soon be a terrible threat

Ah, i see you made some different plans on the details. No problem, but please don't forget to build workers for the second core.

Happy to see the island is pretty much ours and our research plan works out.

The thing i really do not agree with is the courthouse in Xinjian, this is city is never gonna prodoce anything really, not with courthouse, not at size 12. Just ICS that ground, that will produce loads more science.
For Shanghai and Tsintao it is more of a close call, but i think it is also better to ICS those area's.

Atlanta can now not build workers anymore. StDman i see i forgot to think about shields, this city seems unable to build workers in 2 as well. We really need to work on growing those second core cities size 12 asap.

So for the next turnset it is:

Start mining tiles for washington.

Research Education.
Imeadiately trade it for Invention.
Research Banking.
Wait till we can trade it for gunpowder.
Research Chemistry.

Wotan said:

Well done Dman!

I see no reason not to finish off Greece if we can rush a harbour and few units on the island.

Chengdu, maybe we can put cultural pressure on it? It is a less than certain option but you never know. The Vikings will soon be a terrible threat

Click to expand...

Dont forget the Greeks are scientific. We might want to get their IA tech before destroying them.

I have also thought about the ToE and Hooverdam now. As soon as we have factories finished from prebuilds, we want to start these prebuilds.
We have probably around 50 turns before factories are available.
Washington and San Francisco are our most productive cities.

With mined plains, we can bring Washington to 20 spt.
Washington needs to build:
Marketplace + University + newtons + Factory. That is a total of ~900 shields. Fits perfectly if we mine the plains within the coming turnset and do not delay these builds.
SF has around 15 production ? (no game here). That makes 750 in those 50 turns. Factory + University + Market = 500, leaving 250 to spend at will. (if indeed the production is 15)

So please, do not delay these builds and mine those tiles for Washinton asap.

WackenOpenAir said:

The thing i really do not agree with is the courthouse in Xinjian, this is city is never gonna prodoce anything really, not with courthouse, not at size 12. Just ICS that ground, that will produce loads more science.
For Shanghai and Tsintao it is more of a close call, but i think it is also better to ICS those area's.

Atlanta can now not build workers anymore. StDman i see i forgot to think about shields, this city seems unable to build workers in 2 as well. We really need to work on growing those second core cities size 12 asap.

Click to expand...

I agree on disagreeing with Xinjian situation. It was building temple when i got the game to push greek border. But when i captured Athens building temple there didn't make much sense. I switched to settler first but then noticed that city was only pop2 and would never grow to pop3 by the time settler is built. So Court is simply a place holder i left so we can discus what best to do with that city.

We can't finish off Greece now. They have island city on spices. They will never give us that city for peace though. I think we should take their last city on our island and use them in IAs for free tech. Also i might have made a mistake on trade with Rome. I gave them WInes but if Athens flip we will destroy our rep. We need to cash rush settler in Athens and take last greek city on our island ASAP to minimize flipping chances.

Atlanta will grow to pop 12 soon and we will be able to shave workers of it.
Our second core needs aquaducts to be rushed before we can grow it above 12. I didn't have money during my turns to do it. One of the reasons i desperately started building markets in our cities.

WackenOpenAir said:

Wait till we can trade it for gunpowder.

Click to expand...

Did you mean to stop science and wait for gunpowder??? I don't see how that will expedite the time of research.
I'd say keep researching Astronomy etc... and don't wait on AIs...
Sure would be nice if they had gunpowder at the time we have Banking, but I really wouldn't want to trust an AI for fast research.