MIA Grand Strategy Meeting !

So – I've been thinking about this question of whether or not to settle the battle Island soon (20,000 leagues thread), and I realized something…

The question isn't really so much over how soon we settle – it's a more basic question… What helps us get our Space Race win the most?
(so I'm posting this here)

Check out my list of ramifications:

1) Aggressive Settlement
Ramifications: Settle Battle Island SOON – on Furs by Dnuts:
TNT: This will boost our relationship with TNT, we open up a second front for them, and help them stay alive and thriving for longer (by drawing Dnut attention away from them)

Dnuts: Become our enemies. It is only realistic to expect they will view our settling near their core on their luxury items as aggressive, and they will respond sooner or later with military force. In the short term, even if we avoid military consequences, we will poison our trading relationship.
If we go this route – I'd strongly advocate devoting more resources to military readiness to get ready for the inevitable Dnut war.

KISS: Remains our #1 Ally. Highly unlikely to care about our settlement, but may become nervous over our relationship with TNT. We will need to be very careful to not get so friendly with TNT that we jeopardize our relationship with KISS.
Also – if we get into a fight with Dnuts, we may be able to talk KISS into helping us fight them. KISS will want to use their Gallic Swordsmen to get a GA and capture some cities – but I think we'd still do better than KISS in the war, because we're so much closer. KISS may just leave us on our own to fight – but that's ok… it'll save us from being involved in any TNT-KISS war without diplomatic damage.

TerritoryThis move won't gain us anything we really need – but could be vital step in someday (when our technological advantage is overwhelming) wiping Dnuts off the face of the map and grabbing lots of their land.

Space Race: We can be as bigger or bigger than KISS – we control lots of land and population. Overall – very strong position for a late game win. Biggest threat – war goes badly, and we go into a tailspin while KISS (or anyone else) prospers.

2) Delayed Settlement
Ramifications: Settle Battle Island LATER – Near Jungle in the Center:
TNT: We continue to build a good relationship with TNT, but we likely end up in a war with them later when they attack the invading KISS.

Dnuts: We continue to build a good relationship with the Dnuts, no real changes.

KISS: Remains our #1 Ally. Will probably begin an invasion of TNT – and may want to draw us into that war. This is a bad situation for us, because KISS will gain much more from the war than we would (they have Gallic Swordsmen and they are much closer). If we refuse – or even worse, aid TNT – then we risk ruining a VERY important alliance.
The TNT-KISS war is likely to happen no matter what we do settlement-wise, and if we're not fighting the D'nuts – we don't really have any excuse to not help them.

Territory: Settling in the jungle regions may gain us some jungle-only resources we lose to KISS on our own land.

Space Race: KISS is bigger and stronger than us, but we do have jungle resources we need. Biggest threat – KISS can beat us in any victory condition they choose.


3) No settlement
Ramifications: Do NOT Settle Battle Island:
TNT: We continue to build a good relationship with TNT, and everything continues pretty much as-is. We'll suffer some strain when the KISS-TNT war breaks out, but we can hopefully survive it.

Dnuts: We continue to build a good relationship with the Dnuts, no real changes.

KISS: Remains our #1 Ally. We will likely need to offer some kind of token support for their war against TNT – but hopefully we can say "we don't have any cities over there, we really can't help – here's some Gold… good luck!"

Territory: We fill up our Land sooner, we have much lower military supports costs = more profitable Republic.

Space Race: KISS is bigger and stronger than us, but have hopefully spent a lot more on settlement and war than we have. Our smaller empire of much more productive cities out-tech KISS and we win. Biggest threat – a militarily strong KISS turns on us before we launch.




I really look forward to hearing your comments corrections additions and disagreements.

But going on what I've got here, I find myself thinking that option #2 really doesn’t have much going for it. #1 and #3 both seem better… so I'd like us to do one of those!

I can't really disagree with your conclusions, but they seem to be triggered mainly around who we fight first. For #1, we are clearly fighting Donuts first. For #2, you are saying that we will be forced to fight TNT first or risk a rupture in our KISS alliance. For #3, you are saying we are staying out of war for a while.

I think the critical thing from your analysis is that fighting TNT first is bad because KISS gains more, but fighting Donuts first is preferable because we can gain more. The question becomes can we control who we fight and when based on our settlement strategy?

With #1, we pretty much guarantee we fight Donuts first, but I'm not at all sure it will be at a time of our choosing - they could easily attack before we are ready. I don't see #3 as a real option - we need land on the other continent at some point. So, if we choose #2, can we still fight Donuts first at a time we pick? If we can, then I still think that is the best choice.

If KISS attacks TNT, then I think it is KISS' problem. We will be gearing up for an assault on Donuts, and I see no reason why KISS should choose the Green Alliance's first opponent instead of us.

If TNT attacks KISS, that will definitely make things difficult. I'm not sure if TNT will do that - they seem to have more than they can handle already, but they are not reasonable, and KISS' settlers are aggressive.

Good points Mr. President (I expect nothing less)

Here's my concern with the pending TNT-KISS war…

1) I see the TNT-KISS war as inevitable. TNT will attack KISS for the same reason they have attacked Dnuts and for the same reason Dnuts would attack us if we settle near them. TNT wants land, and they'll take it from anyone near at hand. It's possible KISS will declare war first, but why would they? They can just settler spam and choke out TNT if TNT is being weirdly peaceful.

2) The TNT-KISS war will draw Dnuts and KISS into a natural alliance. I'm sure Dnuts will be thrilled to see another team open up a second front against TNT and it will only be natural for both sides to coordinate military operations to their mutual benefit.
This leaves MIA in a bad spot. We can't significantly help TNT – or we risk trouble with KISS. Going to all out war with TNT isn't really good either, because we'll mostly just help KISS and Dnuts. We don't want to really help the D'nuts either – as we'll probably need to attack and kill them at some point and we'd rather have them weak. Besides, KISS may get upset that we're attacking their ally, and we could end up planting the seeds of KISS switching alliances from us to the D'nuts… bad! Bad! bad!
So basically, we end up as the weak younger sister of KISS.

The problem thus becomes – How do we mitigate the effects of KISS-TNT war?
Specifically, we need to do 2 Key Things…
A) Prevent a KISS-Dnuts alliance
B) Covertly help TNT do as much damage to KISS as possible

I see an early war with Dnuts as one way to accomplish this.
We can prevent a KISS-Dnut alliance by calling on KISS to help us against the Dnuts – at the very least by not talking to them or helping them.
We can covertly help TNT by weakening the Dnuts and allowing TNT some breathing room.

Are there other ways? Perhaps.
I'd love to hear a good alternate strategy.

My worry is that if we delay in doing something (anything!) to upset the natural progression we're seeing in this game – the natural KISS-Dnut alliance against TNT will materialize and we'll be left in the cold with no good options left. Settlement option #2 is only a good option if we can find some way (other than war) to make "Key Things" A and B happen. (imo)

I was actually going to request discussion about what technology we want to offer (if any) to Battle Islanders ... we have two carrots being dangled Currancy and Polytheism ... which we can pass on for Literature or Map Making ... other question should be get the KISS Republic deal before we get new technologies first.

I know KISS are in a Shylockian frenzy to gain coinage

I want input please ... thanks.


Now as I've just read above ... I see we are still discussing whether or not to travel overseas ... Geez guyz I've already spent big on luggage, sun screen and visas

Bloody computer lost with all this password access bull**** what I had written before ... I'll try again

My play style is a peaceful expansion with strong defence ... that is why I voted Greek ... it has been proven that diplomacy really does work in this game ... we managed to stop a potential war ... if our approach had been chosen different then it really would have come to blows ... I feel confident that there are players on all teams that would see reason ... maybe I'm being too idealistic don't know ... (KISS mentioned that Robi is pissed off with TNT for putting them in this situation.) ... AI strategies should be modified, we are playing humans.

Can no-one else see a NO WAR game ??? ... maybe not

We could try a neutral approach ... add clause into foreign agreements which would prevent backstabs as we have with KISS ... which the admin team will police, with the offending team being penalised. (think it's in the rules somewhere) if they doublecross.

Anyway I actually see the most likely scenario is that Green Alliance join with one team to destroy the other totally ... and then there will be 3 ... and then Amigos ... We have a very Mexican Standoff

BUT for this to work ... We really do need a prescence on Battle Isle ... therefore how about we settle a turn or two after KISS, that way they will be considered the greater threat ...

Seriously ... All this talk about maybe we should stay home cos the neighbours won't like our music is becoming disturbing ... if this is a serious concern than maybe we should stay home and build castle MIA and peep out the arrow slots incase someone comes too near ... maybe sending ground units overseas is also a bad move ... after all we really do need to protect properly the property we already have ... may as well give Map Making to KISS now ... that way we can watch far away from the safety of our walled cities how KISS will streak away in the game ... and then we can wonder and muse and think of what could have been ... In fact not even sure why we are researching sooo quickly ... Speed Kills :shakehead

Analysis and discussion is good ... but we fall again into this procrastuination stupur ... ... and wonder why we always seem to be folowing KISS when we have the advantage.

Come On MIA ... what ever happened to Take No Prisoners !!!

Seems we should change motto to Take No Risks

Nothing like an impassioned speech to get my thinking juices flowing in the morning.

Regarding General_W's "Aggressive settlement / Delayed settlement / No settlement": Your conclusion that if we go for delayed settlement up near the jungle band will NOT result in DNUT's taking offense is wrong. I strongly suspect that DNUTs and TNT will have sharp words about us settling anywhere in the middling region. The only way I see one BattleIslander not having a problem with our settlements is if we settle in the other team's territory. Therefore, your conclusion that TNT will like it if we settle in DNUT's SouthWest is correct.

Regarding Chamnix' distillation that we should just trying to go to war at a time that suits us (and furthers our goal of Space), I see TNT as Partners. Once we have Republic, we could then talk about timing a Golden Age. Ideally, ours would happen after the DNUT's ran out. Also, we'd have to gift TNT up to speed. We need TNT to aggressively fend of KISS settlement.

Maybe a secret pact with TNT is in order?.... One that would only be engaged if we see our relationship with KISS heading down the tubes.

Regarding The Impassioned Plea for Travel...
I think you may be missing the point of the preceding posts. They are not arguing that we should or should not settle over there. We are certainly going to found cities on BattleIsle. The posts were nailing down exaclty how we should settle in a way that best suits our desired Victory Condition. There's no use wasting resources on an early settlement (resources that could be better used at home) if early settlement will not advance our goals. That's what I've been reading at least.

As for the potential trades of Maps and Lit for Currency and Poly: Maps can't really do any of them any good right now. The only thing I see TNT doing is putting a few immortals on a boat to try and sneak around to cut-off DNUT's horse supply. I don't expect to see a wave of Immortals or Mounted Warriors on our shores while there is still a war going on.

So I have changed my mind about trading Maps. Certainly KISS will have to be brought into the loop on this, but I would say let's get MAPs for Currency.

peter grimes said:

Regarding The Impassioned Plea for Travel...
I think you may be missing the point of the preceding posts. They are not arguing that we should or should not settle over there. We are certainly going to found cities on BattleIsle. The posts were nailing down exaclty how we should settle in a way that best suits our desired Victory Condition. There's no use wasting resources on an early settlement (resources that could be better used at home) if early settlement will not advance our goals. That's what I've been reading at least.

Click to expand...

Exactly right!
@Fe – I fear you totally misunderstood me. I am absolutely NOT advocating that we stay home in our castle. I just want us to be prepared for the consequences of what our settling overseas will do.
I have incredible respect for your diplomacy, but ask yourself – if we hike over to our furs, and find that the Dnuts have already settled there – would any amount of silver-tongued diplomatic acrobatics save them from our continent cleansing wrath? I think not.
There's nothing they could give us to make it worthwhile having en enemy that close on our homeland. To expect them to feel differently is wild optimism/foolishness, imo. (If I'm wrong – so much the better! Dnuts are fools and we'll choke them out peacefully on their own land. But if I'm right – and we're unprepared… then we suffer a humiliating setback and make a game-long enemy anyway.)

peter grimes said:

Certainly KISS will have to be brought into the loop on this, but I would say let's get MAPs for Currency

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I agree – I'd like to delay giving KISS maps – but once we start trading it – let's get everything we can for it! Peter's right, it really doesn’t do the Battle-Islanders a whole lot of good.

Been thinking the same thing myself, trading Map Making is a good idea as it will enable us to trade with the Battle Islanders whenever they get around to building a harbour.

A Great Library race is better left unsupported ... unless a caveat similar to KISS' We will not build Great Library condition is agreed to ... (something I feel is unworkable in game)

I was coming to the opposite conclusion from everyone else regarding Literature vs. Map Making. If we can make deals giving up Literature instead of Maps, I think we are better off:

• Literature is cheaper than Map Making.
• Literature is not required for advancement, Map Making is.
• Libraries are really not useful during Despotism as very few cities will have enough beakers to make building a library worthwhile, and neither Battle Islander is close to another government yet.
• I don't think we will have any luxury trades to make with Battle Island anytime soon if we get wines from KISS.
• I like knowing there is absolutely no possibility of foreign troops on our land (I know there is not much chance of them visiting even with Map Making, but I prefer no chance).

We can't deny them the Great Library completely since they can (and will) research Literature on their own if we won't trade, but I prefer to make them research Map Making on their own instead of Literature.

We know Donuts will take Literature for Polytheism. I doubt TNT will take either for Currency straight up, but we will have to see...

fe3333au: so you prefer trading MM or Lit to the others for the tech proposals
GeneralW77: hmm. good points. I don't want KISS trading MM to the battleIslanders ... but I don't want KISS trading anything to them...
fe3333au: he makes good arguments ... I'm not sure which way to go ... the Great Library race is a big threat ...
GeneralW77: sigh. it's a tough call.
fe3333au: Yes I'm looking at trading or signing agreemnets with TNT and Nuts to lock them in ... that way MIA win over KISS for once
fe3333au: Lit better deal
GeneralW77: the longer we delay them getting the Great Library the better- of course, they're probably doing a pre-build already (if they're smart) so our delay won't really do any good.
fe3333au: no it won't
GeneralW77: might as well give it to them, and keep going full steam for Education.
fe3333au: Yes education LOL
fe3333au: maybe talk KISS into going for that ... and us doing other techs
GeneralW77: yeah - the more I think about it, the more like giving them lit.
GeneralW77: who knows - maybe we'll capture the Great Library city from Dnuts (or KISS will get it from TNT) anyway.
fe3333au: Monotheism -> Theology -> Education ... pity it is so straight line
fe3333au: I'm still oscillating ... but had initial leanings to Lit ... but eitherway we trade them the same tech

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@ Chamnix: You won me over! I think trading lit and hanging on to MM makes more sense. As long as we can make sure KISS dosn't arange a way to trade MM to them!

I'm still on the fence about Lit over Maps to trade. The problem with giving either DNUTs or TNT access to the Great Library is it affects our gaining Republic.

I know everyone has read this several times before, but here it is:

If KISS trade us Republic after the GL is constructed, then that BattleIslander also has access to it. There is no way to prevent that, unless we delay the Republic trade. At the moment, we're not ready to go into a Republic, but I don't really have a good idea of when, and under what circumstances, we will be ready.

We could talk with KISS and delay trading anything at all until education is reached (is that even feasible?)

Or, we could just let the techs fall where they will, bite the bullet, and pretend that the acquisition of the GL has no profound impact on our situation.

Unfortunately, Mono Theo and Edu are nonetheless sufficiently costly for us at this stage that I don't really see us being able to turn off the GL for 3 terms or so. I'm not saying I'm totally against trading LIT, as there are some very strong arguments for it. But there are some pretty strong arguments against it, as well. It's a tough nut.

you're exactly right Peter - it is a pickle!
But the reality is, if either team wants the Great Library, they have probably already started the pre-build, and they WILL be able to research Lit on their own before they finish the pre-build anyway.

Getting Lit sooner dosn't really help them, because (thanks to the prebuild) they can already start work on it now anway.

So as ugly as it is - it's really beyond our control as to when/if they get the GL.

MIA’s not getting Republic to deny the Great Library builder is not an option. To get to Education, we would have to give KISS all Ancient Age techs, and they would not give us anything yet. They would be in Republic probably 50+ turns before us and have a massive commercial advantage.

They have to understand that would be giving them the game, and we could not accept it. If they insisted they would not give it to us, then we would just have to research Republic ourselves, our trading days would be over, and the Great Library owner would still get Republic – we hold all the cards in that bargaining session with KISS.

Really, Republic is not going to be as valuable to the Battle Islanders anyway. They have fewer towns therefore less unit support, they need more units for the war, and they will add the possibility of war weariness. It is not obvious that whoever builds the Great Library will be able to afford to switch to Republic in any case as long as they are fighting.

As far as when we will be ready for Republic, I like to think we will be ready now when it is completed. When we were discussing our preparedness before, I thought KISS would be finishing around turn 70. Now that we are talking about turn 85, we should be ready.

In that case in a purely value context ... Literature would be the better tech to trade.

Since I suspect that we would be trading Writing into the package for Currancy from TNT

What do the silent masses think

Now that we are talking about turn 85, we should be ready.

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Excellent Mr Prez ... lets replace should with will

I didn't realize that the other teams wouldn't be ready to switch to Republic. Of course, it makes sense, what with the few towns and all those units. I had seen Republic as a sort of crown jewel that must be guarded at all costs.

Apparently, I've been a little over-paranoid* about letting those huns on Battle Isle get anything i see as valuable whatsoever. I should stop being so stingy, and remind myself of their backwardness.

So, if KISS is planning on scouting with warriors, and we are planning on doing the same, I suppose we should get a galley going. We might also want to consider 'pre-positioning' a settler such that we could send him with a non-hoplite defense to BattleIsle in case we need to respond quickly for any reason. I say non-hoplite, because I don't think we want our Golden Age any time soon.

As for TNT, we need to start bleeding them a little bit. We are vastly more powerful than they in the Research department. Can we get a couple of slaves from them or something? They were so poorly behaved in the first 40 turns or so, sometimes it really irks me that they haven't even offered an explanation for their behavoir. I think they've realized that their tactic of Mean-Nastiness wasn't working, and now they are actually being rewarding just for being civil! [/rant]


*I say over-paranoid because a little paranoia keeps you sharp

It is tricky - we don't really have any non-hoplite defense. The only other unit we have available with a defense greater than 1 is a swordsmen, and that is kind of expensive for defense, and will also be very ineffective defending against mounted warriors. We are either not going to have an effective defender in our city or we are going to risk an early Golden Age once we settle over there.

I love the idea of getting a slave or 2 from TNT. We have so many techs to offer them, and they have no techs to exchange for them. They probably shouldn't make deals giving away workers, but we can try.

MIA recieving a slave is good ... I do this with AI all the time and also like doing it with players in pbem

But what value technology ???

Also and more important, the transaction would be displayed in the F-3 Military Pophead Screen as a 'captured' unit ... unless it is the slave taken originally by TNT, in that case the 'captured' unit would be shown as Nut.

EDIT DISCLAIMER ... I am 90% sure on the slave display title ... 100% on the fact that it will show everyone.

Another option, if the situation allows it (maybe in this case only with KISS)
>We can trade for work to be done by KISS workers ... I've offered a 1gp per worker per turn rate in other games.

I'd also like to applaud any efforts to trade tech to TNT for workers. Persia is industrious right? Doesn’t that make their slaves better?

As for the settlement escort – I think it's extremely unwise to settle overseas without hoplite defense.
Agreed – we'd like to avoid a pre-republic GA – but hopefully our hoplites will be scary enough that Dnuts won't attack immediately. (maybe some diplomatic hand wringing and bargaining can also delay the start of the war?)
If NOT getting an early GA is that important, then we should delay settling. Settling without hoplites is just begging to lose a city.
I don't think there will ever be a "perfect" time to settle – but it may be worthwhile to try to time our settlement to about 5-10 turns before Republic. (of course, if Republic comes sooner than expected, that's great also).

I'm not sure about the uneasiness with the slave being revealed by the military pop-head. Are you concerned that Dnuts will divine the trading between us and TNT? We've made no exclusives with Dnuts, so we are allowed to trade with TNT if we choose.

We could mask that by gifting a TNT slave to KISS immediately - this would be effective because of the turn order. Dnuts, who go first, won't ever see that we have a slave if we pass her on to KISS (with accept) immediately upon recieving the slave.

On the other hand, let's go over it once again: Why is it bad for DNUTs to wipe out TNT?

Is it that it then makes KISS settlement on BattleIsle easier? Is it the balance of three teams rather than 4, with one team completely free on a whole continent?

I'd really prefer TNT to wipe out DNuts but still remain technologically backward. We'd be free to expand into DNUTs old territory, and KISS would have a tougher time and distance to settle BattleIsle. Seems that if anything, we should be offering our slaves to TNT. Man, they really mixed stuff up, didn't they?!

As for a non-hoplite defender to send with a settler:

We are either not going to have an effective defender in our city or we are going to risk an early Golden Age once we settle over there.

Click to expand...

So we need to consider that we won't be sending a settler there until we are ready for a Golden Age. Therefore, we have to start talking about what our goals are to accomplish by the end of the GA. I'd like more experienced players to elucidate more specifically, but here is a general outline:

We need to lay the foundations for everything that we want to happen - get any city improvements in place beforehand, ensure that our terrain is improved as much as we think we need, and get units prepped for any operations we want to carry out. I can't tell you how many games I've 'wasted' by not controlling and preparing for my Golden Age. There are very careful players on the KISS team, and they certainly won't waste their GA.

At the same time, is there an advantage to coordinating our GA's? Should we dump into Monarchy and try to eliminate the other two teams in the Medieval Age leaving KISSMIA free to commence our own space races?

General_W said:

I don't think there will ever be a "perfect" time to settle – but it may be worthwhile to try to time our settlement to about 5-10 turns before Republic. (of course, if Republic comes sooner than expected, that's great also).

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This is dangerous because we definitely do not want our Golden Age to start on the first turn of a 9-turn anarchy.

peter grimes said:

I'm not sure about the uneasiness with the slave being revealed by the military pop-head. Are you concerned that Dnuts will divine the trading between us and TNT? We've made no exclusives with Dnuts, so we are allowed to trade with TNT if we choose.

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I agree. In fact it could definitely be argued that we are helping Donuts - the worker is far more useful to TNT's war effort than any techs we could give them would be.

peter grimes said:

On the other hand, let's go over it once again: Why is it bad for DNUTs to wipe out TNT?

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I think we just don't want either team to win easily. The best result is an ongoing stalemate where they are both devoting their resources to building units then losing them.

This is dangerous because we definitely do not want our Golden Age to start on the first turn of a 9-turn anarchy.

Click to expand...

I certainly agree.
I'm just saying it's also dangerous to delay setteling for too long also.

When do we expect to get Republic from KISS? If we had a good solid date, we could plan to start our settlement at the same time and gamble that Dnuts won't/can't hit us right away.

If we get republic fast enough, maybe we can't get settlers over there beforehand anyway!

Did we ever get a final version of that settlement map? Last I saw there was still a lot of discussion. (at work atm, and can't go look it up.) I think it will help this discussion greatly to have a better grasp on when Republic will come and how soon we can send a settler and hoplites overseas regardless.
Then we can have a more productive debate - ie. is it worth delaying X number of turns to get our Republic?

EDIT: And as for the TNT vs Dnuts thing: I don't think we want them equal at all! I would like to see a Militarily strong TNT mostly confined to the North, a weak and devastated Dnut in the south that is being eaten piece by piece by MIA. (and a KISS that are firm allies of ours, but spending heavily on fighting a strong TNT.)
If we determined that trading a worker for Tech will hurt them - then we shouldn't do it. But I'm not so sure it would. From their POV trading one pop and a few shield for a tech may be a great deal! I don't think we need to worry about TNT's advancement level until the late middle ages. Personally, I think the sooner they get pikemen and knights, the more of a pain in the side of KISS they can be. After that point we want TNT to stagnate and whither. And, of course, we ultimately want KISS to triumph... we just want to be way ahead of them when they do!