SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

Wow, another part of our saga! Keep it coming, please!

Game looks excellent. Sorry about the 2 workers, should have garrisoned them.

(EDIT: crossposted with CF.)

• Our defenses on Tadpole seem more than strong enough. Our artillery force is large enough to actually attack a medium-size civ, there's no need for more. Perhaps another half-dozen infantry, and then we're set. I would put about 15-20 infantry and half a dozen arty on the Mainland, and 20-25 infantry plus the remaining arty on Tadpole (that's enough to stop a large cavalry offensive). Then, get rid of all pre-industrial units. Even the elites are probably useless by now, but we can keep them if you wish.
• Low priority: If we have nothing else to build I would like to replace the galleons by transports at a convenient moment. They are faster and so we need fewer. A few destroyers would also be nice, but again there's no hurry yet. Destroyers are better than battleships: faster, cheaper, and strong enough to take out the wooden navies of our opponents (remember nobody but us has Oil).
• We are shipping spices to Spain, I'm quite sure we can renegotiate for more gpt. We can also renegotiate the RoP for more gpt I think - or perhaps cancel it for security.
• Research rate is > 1600 max. We can increase it a bit more still (keep adding back native workers wherever it's useful), but probably not by much before Labs. I think we can maintain 4 turn research throughout the game now. Probably the GA should start when we are 2 turns into the Modern Age. We can then do 6 techs with (partial) GA help, and would have to do Satellites without. At 7000 beaker cost, that seems feasible.
• It doesn't matter much what we research after MassProd I think. Perhaps Flight, for the airports. Or towards Electronics, for Hoovers. Albu would be a good town for Hoovers, and could start a prebuild soonish.
• MM details: The Coal plants are Docks prebuilds presumably. Vladi can switch to a Docks prebuild as well. Some Tadpole towns can squeeze out a few more specialists - e.g., Testtube, East Virginia. In general, if the town has no aqueduct and is not on fresh water then it cannot grow beyond size 6. In this case, if its best food tiles are giving 4 food, then size 5 is ideal (3 specialists).
• More MM details: Some towns can use worker attention. E.g., Kristiansund needs another mountain mine and can make more shields. Smurkz Point makes too much food and can use a mine on that irrigated grass tile. If you're in for something extra, you could send a worker to Thunderfall to irrigate that game tile. There must be many more, and it probably makes little difference .
• Here and there we can have some fun with forestry operations: plant forest, chop, get 10 shields, then redo mine or irrigation. It only works once per tile, and unfortunately you cannot see which tiles have been used already. Best used for towns that still need first level or science improvements.

Setup
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I ran a test to see whether India can do pointy-stick. Scenario: research to halfway MA. India is given 1 mainland city. Figure out how to contain India's forces. When her troops are ready to attack, gift a bunch of cities to another civ, and let India walk in. See if India will make peace for techs.


Results
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• The gifted city is poprushed to size 1 by India and becomes completely useless. India runs the economy into the ground and occasionally loses units and city improvements (cheapest first). Build order is: a few spears, temple, more spears. As soon as city has 8 defenders + temple, it starts archers (mixed with more spears). This all takes quite long, and build order ect seems to depend on chance or at least its causes are not clear. Note that India cannot build better troops than archers and spears until Chivalry (which they never reached in the test). This is an advantage, as they are cheap - elephants would take forever.
• If we completely seal off the gifted city then the archers seem to runs around Indian lands and not attack. This is only true if none of our tiles can be reached by India. Otherwise, some of the archers will venture out, and it is possible to lead them by the nose: if they have a path to an undefended city (perhaps needs to be nearby), they'll follow it. Infantry can be used to guide them and will not be attacked - unfortified vet on flat terrain is enough). It doesn't matter whether the archer is wounded (by arty) or not. If the archers are locked up on our land without a path to an undefended city, they pillage and then attack an infantry. A permanent cage can be constructed for example as follows:
  
  
  
  The pics are from the start of two consecutive turns. We move the "Gate" infantry as indicated, keeping the "Wall" in place. The Indian archer will respond as indicated in red, with the intent to move on as indicated in dashed red. This way we can keep him going back and forth. Of course this takes a tile out of production. In our game we could use the mountain tiles around the Indian Ocean as long-stay cage, and lead the archer to the goal city when we are ready.
• To let India take over some cities and possibly do some pointy stick I did the following:
  • Reduce another civ (Persia) to 1 city. Make peace.
  • Get Indian archers in position next to cities she can take. In this test, there were 2 archers.
  • Make peace with India and gift her all techs up to Edu and Engineering, including Republic and Monarchy. In the actual game we would use the GLib, but I didn't build it, so I had to transfer techs this way. Redeclare war.
  • India goes into Anarchy and will switch to Republic.
  • Ally with Persia vs India and gift Persia the same techs, plus some of the techs immediately following. I had increased the costs of these techs beforehand to a level comparable to the space techs (see Rule Modifications).
  • Gift Persia towns immediately threatened by India. India takes these towns. The number of city improvements lost in the takeover seems highly random, maybe half? Repeat this step a few times. Sometimes I also gave Persia gold, part of which (probably about half) would then go to India. If you don't give gold then India keeps losing city improvements and units.
  • In 18 turns India took 9 cities this way, using the two archers and some of the 8 man garrison mentioned before. Also 1-2 cashrushed units.
  • India made peace for Invention, the cheapest tech Persia had, priced at 1/6-th of Superconductor. I tried several alternatives. It doesn't matter if I break the alliance by declaring on Persia. If I make peace with India and give her Invention, then Persia and India don't make peace - apparently Persia's techs are now too expensive.

Pics of Indian empire before and after:




Conclusions
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• It takes long for India to get some archers out (80 turns in the test), but once she takes a few cities, things speed up and India gets about 1 city per 2 turns on average. It seems India keeps every city, whether it has a Great Wonder or not.
• A non-poprush government for India seems to be rather essential, or she'll whip every city to death.
• Gifting gold by proxy to India is essential as well. India seems to use it to rush both city improvements and units, and for upgrades. Main benefit is that it balances the books for a while.
• In the test India started to build FP and Wall St (Apollo was not available at her tech level). This gives some hope.
• India apparently cannot get a modern tech in peace, it's too expensive.
• Play order is: human player, and then the AI's in reverse order (with respect to the order they are added in the editor, whic is the order in the F8 histograph). In the real game that would be Vikings, Spain, America, Celts, Ottomans, Carthage, Mongols, India.

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Rule modifications
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• Horsemen are available with Wheel, cost 10 shields, are amphibious, have 40 attack, bombard & defense, and 12 move.
• Frigates are available with Wheel, require horses, cost 10 shields, have bombard 6, RoF 3, range 2.
• CIA requires horses, cost 10 shields.
• FP cost 10 shields.
• Pyramids, Colossus, Oracle and GWall cost 10 shields, require horses, and give two free techs.
• Base cost of following techs is raised: Invention 50, Music 100, Press 150, Astro 200, Chiv 250, Banking 300 (= cost of Superconductor, the most expensive space tech). Gunpowder also costs 300, and gives draft and mobilization.
  This turned out to be unnecessary, I could easily reach the space age in time.
• Human gets 1000 gold, 12 settlers, 24 workers, 9 scouts and Masonry, Alpha, Pott, Wheel, WC, Writing, HBR to start. It helps a lot.

There's only 1 horse resource, conveniently under the start position of the human.
Monarch level, 7 AI's.
I forgot to change AI free unit support, so it's standard for a Monarch game.
Map is created with Vanilla editor, played in PtW. It seems Vanilla rules are followed.

In the attachments are saves from the first moment an Indian archer shows, from the turn I started giving cities away, and from the turn before India wants to make peace with Persia. A full log is also attached.

Long Term Strategy

Kicking India off this planet:

• Tech Elevator : India stays dumb until we educate her, some time after we have reached Space Flight. India has to capture the Great Library for this ride to work. Before we let India capture the GLib, we make someone else just as smart as we want India to be. This will probably be the Ottomans. We gift the GLib early (before all space techs are known) so that India will have more time to figure out that she wants to build the Apollo Program. Too bad that Small Wonders get destroyed when they are captured.
• The Grey Empire : Since India will need good cities to build space parts, we will gift India the Purple V of Victory, that is, all our southern cities south of the choke points of Smuez Canal and Hold'em. This will be done via proxy, i.e. giving undefended towns to an AI that India is at war with so that India will capture the town. Or perhaps not; according to zyxy's analysis, we could 'force' India to capture cities on our timetable.
• The Last Techs : If we do not research all the space techs before India gets suddenly smarter, we have to proxy those last nuggets of information to her, somehow.
• Speed : We must stay consistently smart, learning something new every four turns.
• Wonders : The plan is to use ToE to get Space Flight and Superconductor.
• Golden Age : At least 20 turns away, since we want it in early Modern Times. Universal Suffrage would be the trigger to start the GA. This will delay India's great ride as we take a ride also.
• Spain : Will try to play with the big boys and get hurt. Her fate is sealed, just not the time.
• Other civs : We keep the Ottomans around for their free MT tech, the others to act as proxies/cannon fodder/comic relief.

Short Term Strategy

• Research Order : Mass Production (last 3) -> Flight (4) -> Scientific Method (first 3).
• Infrastructure : Build money makers and smart makers. City for the Sages and Smurkzadelphia switch to docks when MP comes in, then switch to factories once the docks are done. New Smurkzheim builds Magellan's Voyage on the 1050 AD IBT. Continue to build up the Northern Core.
• Military : build the Smurkz defenses to 50 Infantry and 40-50 Artillery. Bulk of the military move to Tadpole to be able to deal with Spain quickly when needed.
• Trades : Bleed Spain for every gold piece she has.
• Workers : Improve around Smurkz on Ice. This city is working an unimproved forest! Send some workers to Tadpole to help the American slaves get things done.
• Naval : Will ship-chain to get units to Tadpole. Currently seven of our eleven ships are used in ship chaining. Will find the other four and attempt to upgrade them to transport and insert into the ship chains.
• Carthage : Will re-establish our embassy with Carthage.
• New Cities : We have three settlers in production on Tadpole. Will spend many creative hours debating their names and then settle on Katrina, Rita and Wilma.

Current Builds

• Infantry [5] (SmurkZentral, Smurkzgrad, Ismurkz, Albusmurkze and Missismurkzi)
• Factory [8] (Capulco, Smurkz-am-zee, Cape Smurkz, Smurkzala, Nansmurkzet, Olive Or Die, Victoria Viking and SmurkzAtroid)
• Wealth [27] (Houston, Buffalo, Thunderfall, Lamb on Broadway, Smurknes, Golden Smurkz, LateNightSpam, Scientific Lambratory, Thinktank, Science Squeeze, Texas Horses, Upstate New York, East Virginia, Smurkz on Ice, Smalltown America, Alphretta, Cosa Nostra, Washington, Istanbul, Detroit, Lugdunum, Bursa, Atlanta, Richborough, Chicago, Alcatraz and Seattle)
• University [2] (Tromsmurkz and San Ansmurkzio)
• Artillery [6] (Vladivosmurkz, Arismurkz, House of the Beard, Smurkzfood, Ol' Smurkz River and Smurkzacabana)
• Courthouse [3] (Smurkastle, Kristiansund and Smuez Canal)
• Library [2] (Smurkzland and SteinSmurkz)
• Temple [1] (Smurkz Highway)
• Marketplace [2] (Mo and Spicy Smurkz)
• Aqueduct [3] (Smurkzville, Kalmurkz Reborn and Hold'em)
• Harbor [1] (Oe-Hah)
• Knight [1] (Testtube)
• Worker [1] (Entremont)
• University [2] (Carthage and Smurkz Point)
• Magellan's Voyage [1] (New Smurkzheim)
• Settler [3] (New York, Boston, and SF Rises Again)
• Coal Plant [2] (Smurkzadelphia and City for the Sages)
• Bank [1] (Oy Deer!)
• 71 cities

Current Military

• 01 settlers, 03 in production
• 72 worker, 01 in production
• 01 scouts
• 03 swordsman
• 17 horseman
• 01 pikeman
• 34 infantry, 05 in production
• 07 cannon
• 21 artillery, 06 in production
• 11 galleons
• 15 medieval infantry
• 00 knight, 01 in production
• 185 supported units, 16 in production

Will need to determine the current military disposition of troops on Smurkz and Tadpole.

zyxy said:

• Here and there we can have some fun with forestry operations: plant forest, chop, get 10 shields, then redo mine or irrigation. It only works once per tile, and unfortunately you cannot see which tiles have been used already. Best used for towns that still need first level or science improvements.

Click to expand...

CAII has an option in the "World Map" that will highlight the tiles that have not donated their 10 shields from forest chopping. Right click on the map when the "World Map" tab is selected. There is a check box for "Shielded Forests". Turn that on and the tiles that are still choppable will get a reddish blob on them.

Great experiments with India. It's a pity that they can't learn Modern techs by proxy, but not unexpected. With the new rules mod, we should let them have the GLib at spaceflight so they can build the Apollo ASAP. But if we want the Dumbo, we should wait until all SS techs are known. I vote for the latter.

We have to be careful with the Gifting of cities to remember that the borders will retreat back to the ring of 8. That means all the railed tiles between cities will be an infinite move scenario for india. I would guess it's much harder to steer their units then. Also, it would be a good idea to get the MA with the proxy three turns before the city gifting so that the obligatory "I'm not talking to you" happens before the city gifting/praying for peace.

I would prefer not to build more factories unless they are going to pay themselves off.



So the sum of improvements must be greater than 240/.3333=720s!

Factories should only be built if we're planning on building 720s worth of improvements. A Bank, and Research Lab is only 360. Add a stock exchange gets us to 560. A commercial dock or a few infantry puts us over the edge, but just be careful that the factory is really needed. (The ones in the south of course are required for India.)

About renegotiating, I think the available gpt is calculated assuming the original deal is still active. Whatever is indicated by her current spare gpt, is all she can pay, even if you cancel an active deal. I'm not positive about this but I've been burnt in the past by renegotiating and coming out with less than I started with.

All in all, I think we're probably planning on declaring against them within 20 turns so either way, the deal won't last past that. Do we want to go to war with them. If so when, CB prepares and I go to war, or we both prepare and the player after me hits them?

I also agree that a) there is a lot of MM that could be done and b) none of it will affect the timing of our long term goals.

EDIT: I'd love to get the game on Wednesday. This week is going to be difficult for me to fit playing time in. If it gets too far into Thursday, I may need a swap or skip.

CB, the plan looks very good. Just a few details:

CommandoBob said:

Infrastructure : [...] City for the Sages and Smurkzadelphia switch to docks when MP comes in, then switch to factories once the docks are done.

Click to expand...

They have factories already. Remember to use the Big Picture to switch to Docks (yes, this is your chance to try it ).

Trades : Bleed Spain for every gold piece she has.

Click to expand...

This is good, but please do not sell Steam unless you get full value (which means around 100 gold per turn or so).

Workers : Improve around Smurkz on Ice. This city is working an unimproved forest! Send some workers to Tadpole to help the American slaves get things done.

Click to expand...

Smurkz on Ice is probably hopelessly corrupt, just like the 2 cities to its south. Well you can try to chop a harbor and grow the town, I guess. It is working a forest only so that it grows next turn.

Naval : [..] attempt to upgrade them [Galleons] to transport and insert into the ship chains.

Click to expand...

I would rather build fresh transports and disband galleons. IMO the philosophy should be: we have plenty of shields, but we want to save every penny. Some of our coastal towns have nothing to do after they finish docks, and can easily build some transports and destroyers.

Some other things:
- We will learn Electronics in 19 turns. A good city to build Hoover Dam is Albu: it has the necessary river and it would need only 12 turns. So it would be good to start a prebuild in 7 or 8 turns.
- I think we want US when we are 2 turns in the Modern Age, that means 29 turns from now. Our best city in the south after Albu is Ol'Smurkz. It currently does 42 spt, but this would go up to 56 I think with Hoover Dam. So no need to start a prebuild this set.
- For now the best way to deal with India is to completely seal off Indianapos from our land by stationing infantry on every border tile (on our side). One infantry per tile is enough, you'll need 10 total. Indian archers should then simply march around their land a bit, but not attack us. We can let them out later, when we are ready.
The alternatives are to let India roam through our land, or to kill their archers. Both lead to WW for India, the first leads to production loss for us, and the second is bad because we want India to have enough troops.

ControlFreak said:

CAII has an option in the "World Map" that will highlight the tiles that have not donated their 10 shields from forest chopping. Right click on the map when the "World Map" tab is selected. There is a check box for "Shielded Forests". Turn that on and the tiles that are still choppable will get a reddish blob on them.

Click to expand...

I know, but for some reason it shows all grass/plains/tundra tiles as "red" on this map - and I have chopped a few forests already. Maybe I have a buggy version.

We have to be careful with the Gifting of cities to remember that the borders will retreat back to the ring of 8. That means all the railed tiles between cities will be an infinite move scenario for india. I would guess it's much harder to steer their units then. Also, it would be a good idea to get the MA with the proxy three turns before the city gifting so that the obligatory "I'm not talking to you" happens before the city gifting/praying for peace.

Click to expand...

Perhaps I should clarify how I did this. India had two archers next to my cities. I ally Persia vs India, and gift the cities to Persia. On the interturn, India takes them. One or more turns later, some Indian units march to other cities. I gift these cities to my ally as soon as India is next to them. In the test, I didn't really try to steer India, but it can easily be done: the archers don't like to attack infantry and will go for undefended cities. So a city can be protected by either blocking every path to the city with infantry (that way we can for example protect our northern core) or by defending the city with an infantry. As long as there are reachable undefended cities, India will go for them. Rails actually help because things should go faster. The no talking period also actually helps because our ally cannot make peace before we want him to. And if we don't want to transfer techs this way, we can always kill the ally when we're done .

Good notes on the factories and the renegotiations - I don't know for sure either. Perhaps just renegotiate RoP then?

All in all, I think we're probably planning on declaring against them within 20 turns so either way, the deal won't last past that. Do we want to go to war with them. If so when, CB prepares and I go to war, or we both prepare and the player after me hits them?

Click to expand...

Really? Spain is paying us almost 200 gpt now, I would love to keep that a little longer. Anyway, Tanks are still nearly 20 turns in the future.

Gee, you guys sure talk a lot! Keep it up!

I was going to give some hand-over instructions, but seeing how far the discussion has moved I will just chime in where we're talking now. To adress everything, this will be a post of many short, unrelated notes.

ControlFreak said:

About renegotiating, I think the available gpt is calculated assuming the original deal is still active. Whatever is indicated by her current spare gpt, is all she can pay, even if you cancel an active deal. I'm not positive about this but I've been burnt in the past by renegotiating and coming out with less than I started with.

Click to expand...

I've experienced that as well, and I hesitated to resign the dyes deal because of this. But I decided to try and I got exactly what I was asking for - her free gpt dropped by 5 (14 to 9) when she started paying 22 gpt instead of 17. I would bet the same holds for resigning the spices deal.


Regarding the calculations for factories, I thought something similar, but I decided that factories were worth the trouble. My rationale was that in the north they can help us get tanks at 100 shields each, which we'll need against Spain. In the south we surely want them since we're hoping they'll stay intact after capture by India, who has lots of things to build. Also remember we'll have Hoover Dam soonish, which doubles the benefit of a factory.


zyxy's tests look nice, though one thing worries me. You say that the rules used are vanilla, which makes me wonder how accurate they really are. In particular the AI build orders - we know from SGOTM7 that the laurels were divided on the basis that PTW AIs were much more inclined to build units while at war. So in that regard I don't think the tests are reliable, though in every other sense they are very useful.


The "Wall" between us and The Vest is there to disrupt the silk trade to Spain from Carthage. But while Spain can't pay full price (~22 gpt) for it there's really no reason to disconnect it, since they will simply renew the deal when you reconnect the tiles again. The five stacks in the Wall are each comprised of two offensive units for the pillaging (there's a new one for me, pillaging railroad takes an extra attack to accomplish) and exactly the workers needed to road-rail-mine afterwards (so start with the slave for the road).


My appologies for the fortified workers . But really, they've been fortified for some time already, it's not that I fortified them before hand-off. I had no idea what to do with them (except The Vest Wall), and I still don't. Once we get the market in Spicy (rush with obsolete units?) we can join a few more there, and we could join one to Ice, but other than that .


I didn't check all the specialist farms before hand-off, some of them have probably grown and can get another specialist or several. I renamed all of the farms to begin with Z, that way they will be on top of the list if you sort it by name backwards . As zyxy noted the optimal size for a town with no river and access to two 4-food tiles is 5, with three of the citizens being specialists. On Ice is a good example of this once it grows to 5, hence there's no need to improve the land there, nor to build a harbor. Bursa is another example that is at size 5 already, so the tundra citizen should be a specialist instead.


Is there really any reason to go for flight now? IIRC the primary reason was to give the AIs a chance to research Medicine, but we've scrapped that thought already. Spain doesn't have Electricity yet (nor Steam even), and AIs tend to shun it being expensive and with no benefit, so she'll be a while before she gets to threaten our ToE build. My vote would be to continue up the lower path after Mass Production to get Hoover (and tanks) 4 turns faster, i.e. 15 turns from now (and 19). That would mean starting the prebuild in Albu 3 turns from now for a switch on the IBT.


I agree with zyxy that we should let Spain keep the money flowing our way until it is absolutely necessary to go after her (e.g. she gets Scientific Method).


The Coal Plants are indeed prebuilds for Commercial Docks. It is also possible to switch the factory build in Olive to a Docks, it should be right on time, though we probably want to finish the factory first. The coal plants are same price as Docks, so it is imperative that you switch them on the IBT (I've even delayed them so as to not finish too early).


Did I miss anything?

I'm OK delaying Spain's demise, for now.

I'm OK building Factories since we're going to build tanks and the benefit of Hoovers is coming in 15 turns.

I agree about not upgrading Galleons, we should have spare shields shortly.

I would like to build some privateers for the sheer fun of sinking the primitive boats floating around. When protected by our destroyers they will be an effective way to reduce Spain's naval advantage. They let us have some action without declaring war.

Science farms that have two food bonuses +3fpt each should be at size six. You get +2f from the center, +6f from the food bonuses = +8f. That's enough to keep 4 scientists fed, using two citizen farmers. A quick check indicates that we're already doing that where possible, but I didn't want to mislead CB that the best size for ALL cities was 5.

Have we entered our vote on the new rules? I'm in favor of going for the Flying Dumbo.

Also XTeam seems to be having trouble with Nukes. If we destroy every Manhattan project does that disable nukes?

Niklas said:

I've experienced that as well, and I hesitated to resign the dyes deal because of this. But I decided to try and I got exactly what I was asking for - her free gpt dropped by 5 (14 to 9) when she started paying 22 gpt instead of 17. I would bet the same holds for resigning the spices deal.

Click to expand...

So this would mean renegotiating should work...

zyxy's tests look nice, though one thing worries me. You say that the rules used are vanilla, which makes me wonder how accurate they really are. In particular the AI build orders - we know from SGOTM7 that the laurels were divided on the basis that PTW AIs were much more inclined to build units while at war. So in that regard I don't think the tests are reliable, though in every other sense they are very useful.

Click to expand...

Does anyone know how to make a map with PtW rules using the Vanilla or C3C editor? I have Civ3 "complete", but apparently it's not complete because I cannot find the PtW editor anywhere...
Anyway, I think it is probable that India will not be able to do pointy-stick, and that we can guide her archers around anyway we like.

Is there really any reason to go for flight now?

Click to expand...

I'm fine with any order.

Did I miss anything?

Click to expand...

Don't think so.

CB, if you can still follow all this , I think you're good to go. If not: the only important things not in your plan yet are to use the big picture to switch the Coal Plants to Docks, and to start a Hoover prebuild in time.

Good luck!

Okay, let's try this again.

Long Term Strategy (no changes)

Kicking India off this planet:

• Tech Elevator : India stays dumb until we educate her, some time after we have reached Space Flight. India has to capture the Great Library for this ride to work. Before we let India capture the GLib, we make someone else just as smart as we want India to be. This will probably be the Ottomans. We gift the GLib early (before all space techs are known) so that India will have more time to figure out that she wants to build the Apollo Program. Too bad that Small Wonders get destroyed when they are captured.
• The Grey Empire : Since India will need good cities to build space parts, we will gift India the Purple V of Victory, that is, all our southern cities south of the choke points of Smuez Canal and Hold'em. This will be done via proxy, i.e. giving undefended towns to an AI that India is at war with so that India will capture the town. Or perhaps not; according to zyxy's analysis, we could 'force' India to capture cities on our timetable.
• The Last Techs : If we do not research all the space techs before India gets suddenly smarter, we have to proxy those last nuggets of information to her, somehow.
• Speed : We must stay consistently smart, learning something new every four turns.
• Wonders : The plan is to use ToE to get Space Flight and Superconductor.
• Golden Age : At least 20 turns away, since we want it in early Modern Times. Universal Suffrage would be the trigger to start the GA. This will delay India's great ride as we take a ride also.
• Spain : Will try to play with the big boys and get hurt. Her fate is sealed, just not the time.
• Other civs : We keep the Ottomans around for their free MT tech, the others to act as proxies/cannon fodder/comic relief.

Short Term Strategy (changes in red)

• Research Order :
  • Old: Mass Production (last 3) -> Flight (4) -> Scientific Method (first 3).
  • New: Mass Production (last 3) -> Scientific Method (4) -> Atomic Theory (first 3)
• Infrastructure : Build money makers and smart makers. Use The Big Picture to switch City for the Sages and Smurkzadelphia to docks when MP comes in. New Smurkzheim builds Magellan's Voyage on the 1050 AD IBT. Continue to build up the Northern Core. Prebuild in Albu for Hoover Dam on turn 3 or 4. Factories will go up.
• Military : build the Smurkz defenses to 50 Infantry and 40-50 Artillery. Bulk of the military move to Tadpole to be able to deal with Spain quickly when needed. Build an Infantry Wall to keep Gandhi in place. Disband cannons and other older units in Spicy to help build market.
• Trades : Bleed Spain for every gold piece she has. If we sell Steam Power (a big if, to me) need 100 gpt for it.
• Workers : Not improve around Smurkz on Ice. This caught my eye because it was one of the few areas without rails in all of Smurkz. Send some workers to Tadpole to help the American slaves get things done. Will not touch The Vest Vall Vorkers. Will plan to upgrade the military in The Vest Vall.
• Naval : Will ship-chain to get units to Tadpole. Currently seven of our eleven ships are used in ship chaining. Will find the other four and bring them home to disband towards a transport. New transports will replace Galleons. Start a privateer and 2 to 3 destroyers. Focus on transports first.
• Carthage : Will re-establish our embassy with Carthage.
• New Cities : We have three settlers in production on Tadpole. Decided to name them ‘Z Plane! Z Plane!’ (Fantasy Island), ‘Zentral Intelligence Agency (ZIA)’ and ‘Zoom Zoom Zoom’ (some car commercial).
• MM : Watch over the specialist farms.

Military allocations on Smurkz:

• Tromsmurkz: vPike, vHorse, vMace
• Victoria Viking: 4 vInfantry, 2 arty
• NE of Smurkzacabana: vMace
• Missismurkzi: vInfantry, eHorse
• NE of Smuez Canal: 4 sWorkers (4WT)
• NW of Smuez Canal: 3 sWorkers, 2 slaves (4WT)
• SW of Ismurkz: 4 sWorkers (4WT)
• SmurkZentral: vInfantry
• NE of City for the Sages: 10 sWorkers, 3 slaves (11.5WT)
• The Vest Vall (North to South):
  • 2 vHorse, 7 sWorkers, 1 slave (7.5WT)
  • vMace, vHorse, 7 sWorkers, 1 slave (7.5WT)
  • vMace, vHorse, 7 sWorkers, 1 slave (7.5WT)
  • eSword, vHorse, 7 sWorkers, 1 slave (7.5WT)
  • vMace, eHorse, 7 sWorkers, 1 slave (7.5WT)
• NW of Smurkzland: 3 sWorkers (3WT)
• 2S of Hold’em: 3 slaves (1.5WT)
• 2SE of Smurkastle: 4 sWorkers, 2 slaves (5WT)
• NE of Smurkzville: 1 eqWorker, 14 slaves (8WT?)
• SE and S of Smurkzville: vInfantry
• W of Albusmurkze: vMace, 6 cannon, 3 arty
• S of Albusmurkze: vInfantry
• Albusmurkze: vInfantry, 3 arty, 3 vHorse, 2 eHorse, vMace, vSword
• Smurkzgrad: vInfantry, vMace, 3 arty
• House of the Beard: 3 vMace, vHorse

Totals on Smurkz: 1 vPike, 4 eHorse, 10 vHorse, 11 vMace, 10 vInfantry, 1 eSword, 1 vSword, 11 arty, 6 cannon, 63 sWorkers, 29 slaves, 1 eqWorker

Military allocations on Tadpole:

• Boston: vInfantry
• Thinktank: vInfantry
• SF Rises Again: vInfantry
• Testtube: 2 vInfantry, 2 arty
• New York: vInfantry
• Lugdunum: vInfantry
• Science Squeeze: vInfantry
• Buffalo: vInfantry
• Upstate New York: vInfantry
• NE of Upstate New York: vInfantry
• Golden Smurkz: vInfantry, arty
• Entremont: 2 vInfantry, arty
• Lamb on Broadway: vInfantry
• SE of Lamb on Broadway: slave (.5WT)
• Chicago: 3 vInfantry, rInfantry, 5 arty
• NW of Chicago: 8 sWorkers, 15 slaves (15.5WT)
• N and NW of Chicago: eSword
• Smurkz Highway: vInfantry, arty
• NW of Smurkz Highway: vHorse
• Richborough: 2 vInfantry, cannon
• W of Richborough: vInfantry
• NW of Richborough: vHorse

Total on Tadpole: 22 vInfantry, 1 rInfantry, 2 vHorse, 1 eSword, 10 arty, 1 cannon, 8 sWorkers 16 slaves

Sounds good CB.

Can you finish tonight?

BTW, there's no reason not to rail ICE. We have workers just standing around, so it's not a waste, and the response to the area will be a little faster should we get sneaked.

ControlFreak said:

Sounds good CB.

Can you finish tonight?

Click to expand...

That's the plan! There are not many tasks to do each turn, so I hope this will play quickly.

The plan was to play last night. As I printed off and read the helps, tips and pointers from the team, I decided to revise the short term strategy. Putting that post together took longer than I expected.

Looking good, good luck!

The save is >>HERE<< .

Was only able to finish 6 turns in three and a half hours of game play. This is my turn log of those six turns.

@ControlFreak: I cannot finish all my turns to fully mesh with your schedule. You are welcome to play my last four turns, if that is not too much of a burden on your schedule. If that is a problem or not feasible, I will finish my turns.

[IBT] 1050 AD
Wake some slaves and send them to Smurkz on Ice, just to keep them busy.
Disband vSword in SpicySmurkz, 7 shields
Hit Enter.
America wants to talk; wants to swap World Maps. No.
Entremont worker -> worker, 10 turns.

New Smurkzheim 1050 AD


New Smurkzheim Magellan's Voyage -> university, 7 turns.
San Ansmurkzio infantry -> infantry, 3 turns.
Smurkzgrad infantry -> infantry, 3 turns.
Smurkzacabana arty -> arty, 3 turns.
Missismurkzi infantry -> infantry, 2 turns.
SmurkZentral infantry -> infantry, 2 turns.
Vladivosmurkz arty -> stock exchange (docks prebuild), 7 turns.

SingSing wants to be SmurkzSmurkz. We tell them no (again).

001 1060 AD [IBT]
Ari arty -> infantry, 3 turns.
Ismurkz infantry -> infantry, 2 turns.
Ol' Smurkz River arty -> arty, 2 turns.
Albusmurkze infantry -> infantry, 2 turns.
Smurkzville aqueduct -> market, 10 turns.

002 1070 AD [IBT]
We learn Mass Production and start Scientific Method, 4 turns.
Played with the Big Picture and switched the two coal plants to commercial docks.
Carthage university -> bank, 5 turns.
Smurkzadelphia docks -> stock exchange, 9 turns.
House of the Beard arty -> stock exchange, 8 turns.
Smurkzfood arty -> arty, 3 turns.
Missismurkzi infantry -> infantry, 2 turns.
City for the Sages docks -> stock exchange, 8 turns.
SmurkZentral infantry -> infantry, 2 turns.
Smurkz-am-zee factory -> bank, 7 turns.

003 1080 AD [IBT]
Celts come wandering into Smurkz.

Indian Surprise 1080 AD

I said ‘No”.

San Ansmurkzio infantry -> infantry, 3 turns.
Smurkzgrad infantry -> infantry, 3 turns.
Oy Deer! bank -> university, 17 turns.
Ismurkz infantry -> infantry, 2 turns.
Ol' Smurkz River arty -> arty, 2 turns.
Spicy Smurkz market -> university, 16 turns.
Albusmurkze infantry -> palace (Hoover Prebuild), 18 turns.
Smurkzacabana arty -> stock exchange, 8 turns.
Smurkastle courthouse -> market, 13 turns.
Smurkzland library -> university, 13 turns.
SteinSmurkz library -> university, 16 turns.
Kristiansund courthouse -> library, 20 turns.
Kalmurkz Reborn aqueduct -> market, 10 turns.

004 1090 AD [IBT]
Celts declare war on us.
Stupid Celts 1090 AD


Celt warrior attack vInfantry in Missismurkzi and dies flawlessly.
Ari infantry -> stock exchange, 5 turns.
Boston settler -> wealth and two geeks.
Missismurkzi infantry -> infantry, 2 turns.
SmurkZentral infantry -> infantry, 2 turns.

005 1100 AD [IBT]
Spanish culture has isolated Richborough.
Ismurkz infantry -> arty, 2 turns.
Smurkzfood arty -> stock exchange, 7 turns.
Ol' Smurkz River arty -> arty, 2 turns.
Smuez Canal courthouse -> aqueduct, 12 turns.

006 1110 AD [IBT]

Brief handoff

• The Indian Wall is complete; ten infantry and ten artillery, all fortified.
• Was not able to upgrade the military units in The Vest Vall Vorkers.
• Disbanded the cannons on Smurkz, but should have been done earlier.
• Shipped 4 sWorkers and 4 vInfantry to Tadpole.
• The Victoria-Entremont ship chain is ready to use next turn.
• Built city improvements in coastal cities that could have built transports and the other fun naval toys.
• Took older military units from the south core and set them around SingSing. The Celts will probably do nothing else so the SingSing Wall is an over reaction. However, now we can see our older units and decide what to do with them. Before, it was out of sight, out of mind (at least for me).
• If we are going to lead India to our cities, we will need more than 10 infantry to protect us and to guide India to her next conquest. Just a guess; I’m thinking that another 10 to 20 may be needed.
• We have 825 tiles and are 135 tiles away from “a humiliating victory” by Domination. (Nice phrase, ControlFreak!) I think that we would be OK if we kept our size to around 850 tiles, which leaves a 110 tile cushion, plenty big enough for an unexpected cultural expansion. Or some pointy-stick expansion, if we have to “educate” Spain on her proper place in the world. But this is just a discussion point, not a hard and fast rule. For me, 850 “seems” to be the right size; a little bit larger than we are now, but still far enough away from the limit for it not to be a deciding factor in what we do. And so I offer that as a starting place for discussion on how big we should be.

Looking very nice!

Funny that Celts declared . If you want some fun, you can take out their rubber island city. Then we can put two science towns there.
I don't worry about SingSing. The main problem is that Celt units would mess up our tile allocation. You could have a Wall with 1 hole (a tile we do not need), and then kill all Celt units appearing. We have some elites hanging about, who knows?

It was not discussed yet, but I would switch Sages to a prebuild for SETI.

You're right that eventually we'll need more infantry on Mainland. So you can keep building some IMO.

It looks like India has 1 archer ready. Good.

It seems you've overdone the science a bit. It can be turned down to 0, and our specialists will bring in the tech. And we have a nice fat treasury.

@CB - I'm sorry to take your last 4 turns, but I really appreciate you getting the game to me today. I doubt I'll get much more than ten in so maybe you can finish your other four turns after my turnset.

I'll start the preflight while you all review my strategy. I'll check in in a few hours but will probably proceed as I don't think much controversy will happen over the next set.

Long (but getting shorter) Term

1. Get india some ivory
2. Get india some dyes
3. Crush Spainish hopes of a spaceship win, prevent them from wonder building, especially the Manhattan Project
4. Trigger GA with Universal Sufferage after two turns of Modern Age
5. Let india read all the books in our Library, getting Space Flight at a minimum
6. Wither away to a smaller, defended core
7. Group hug, do a little dance, shout "Jumbooooo Innnnnnn Spaaaaaaaaaaaaace"

My Turn Set

• Build up infantry to prepare for guiding them to our gift cities. (I won't let them in on my turn to reduce their war weariness.)
• Raise the Celtic city in the south. (I will leave Gergovia since we don't want much more territory and it's nice having SingSing corrupt.)
• Continue researching to Hoovers, build the dam. (Flight would come before Radio if I can get that far.)
• Keep 4 turn research
• Start Sages towards SETI
• Trade for techs/gpt from Spain when they have money. Don't sell Steam Power but can sell Medicine if the price is right.
• Get Science farms to max scientists. (May be done already)

Wow, I was actually able to get into the forums today. Anyone else been having problems? I haven't been able to do anything in the forums for several days. Have some catching up to do now.

WarDance said:

Wow, I was actually able to get into the forums today. Anyone else been having problems?

Click to expand...

No problems on this end. That's odd.

ControlFreak said:

@CB - I'm sorry to take your last 4 turns, but I really appreciate you getting the game to me today. I doubt I'll get much more than ten in so maybe you can finish your other four turns after my turnset.

I'll start the preflight while you all review my strategy. I'll check in in a few hours but will probably proceed as I don't think much controversy will happen over the next set.

Long (but getting shorter) Term

1. Get india some ivory
2. Get india some dyes
3. Crush Spainish hopes of a spaceship win, prevent them from wonder building, especially the Manhattan Project
4. Trigger GA with Universal Sufferage after two turns of Modern Age
5. Let india read all the books in our Library, getting Space Flight at a minimum
6. Wither away to a smaller, defended core
7. Group hug, do a little dance, shout "Jumbooooo Innnnnnn Spaaaaaaaaaaaaace"

My Turn Set

• Build up infantry to prepare for guiding them to our gift cities. (I won't let them in on my turn to reduce their war weariness.)
• Raise the Celtic city in the south. (I will leave Gergovia since we don't want much more territory and it's nice having SingSing corrupt.)
• Continue researching to Hoovers, build the dam. (Flight would come before Radio if I can get that far.)
• Keep 4 turn research
• Start Sages towards SETI
• Trade for techs/gpt from Spain when they have money. Don't sell Steam Power but can sell Medicine if the price is right.
• Get Science farms to max scientists. (May be done already)

Click to expand...

I think we already sold Medicine. Selling steam may be ok if getting enough, depending on the timing of things.

You may need to start a prebuild for US, depending on where we build it. Likewise ToE (but that's not likely). It would be good to save a fast builder in the south for UN.


WD, I've had no problems connecting....

ControlFreak said:

• Group hug, do a little dance, shout "Jumbooooo Innnnnnn Spaaaaaaaaaaaaace"

Click to expand...

Alas, poor Piggy, I knew her well." - Hamlet (sort of)

The Crew: First Mate Miss Piggy, Captain Link Hogthrob and Dr. Julius Strangepork


The Ship: SS SwineTrek


Miss Piggy and Gandhi, what a Dumbo Combo!