Alternate History Thread II...

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There are disturbingly many parallels between those two worlds... although, there are also many differences. This Eastern War was quite different, wasn't it? Interestingly enough, a stronger Russia fared worse against a weaker Poland and a weaker Sweden. I suppose that Tsar Alexius' unique personality had a lot to do with the way the Muscovites not only lasted for so long, but also managed to keep advancing for most of the war. Although, Muscovy as a nation was generally less cumbersome and more stable than the Golitsyn Russia.
 
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The Battle of Zaragoza was much celebrated by Arab historians as the defining battle of the era, but in reality, it just confirmed earlier trends. The Emperor Cavadius had sent forth a large force of nearly ten thousand men, but they were on the very edge of the empire, far from their homes in the East, and the Emperor who they supposedly fought for was busy treating himself to a triumphal procession in Constantinople for the victories he achieved in the north.

Needless to say, the rather anticlimactic battle ended fairly quickly. The Roman forces were surrounded by Arabs, and after ten days and ten nights of arrows raining upon them (or so the chroniclers say), the Arabs charged, shattered the shield wall that the Romans had desperately tried to put together, and captured the greater part of the Roman force, leading them away in chains to serve as slaves. Thus, it was not only a great military victory, but a great propaganda victory as well...

And then the Arabs continued their advance, into Gaul now, having attained a casus belli. They shattered the Visigothic forces in the passes of the Pyrenees, and secured the support of the Basques by promising to respect their ancient laws and customs, the Fueros. They moved onward, and took Toulouse almost without a fight; the Visigoth empire which had endured for so long shattered in less than three months.

The Arab advance continued early in 668. The forces overland moved onward, and secured the cities of Lyons, Tours, and Paris; an amphibious force moving up the Rhone helped in this affair, and the Roman Empire’s Western conquests fell like a house of cards around their ears. The people of this area were tired of war... But they still didn’t want to see Arabs ruling Gaul. If some central figure could be found around which the people could rally...

And then, Wulfoald, Mayor of the Palace and Lord Praefect of the Roman Empire in Gaul raised the banners of rebellion against Rome, and declared that only the Franks themselves would be able to sufficiently defeat the Arabs. It might have been a brave (and somewhat foolish) stand, but it was not outside of rational thinking–he had control over considerable forces from Neustria and Austrasia, and furthermore, bribed the local Roman garrison to defect to him. He had a disciplined core to an army, and augmented by the peasant levies, perhaps he could destroy the enemy.

In one of the greatest upsets of military history, the Franks managed to barely inflict a defeat on the Arabs at Metz; it was enough. They counterattacked, and managed to take back Paris and Orleans. The Arabs agreed to a peace treaty, so long as the Franks promised not to intervene on the Roman side of things... As it turned out, the Franks wanted revenge on the Romans, so that term turned out in the end to be an alliance against the Romans.

The Romans now were in fairly desperate straits, as the Franks advanced through the Alpine passes into Italy, and the Arabs from the other side through Sicily. The Khazars contemplated attacking, and eventually joined in, another vulture on the corpse of the Roman Empire, and with Arab armies advancing in Syria and Pontus, the Roman situation was about as bad as could be.

Cavadius, as it turned out, was assassinated, a victim more of his own pride than anything else. The fragile Parvez dynasty was shattered as well, and the Roman Empire fell in 669 with the razing of Constantinople by Khazar forces.

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The irony of the whole situation, of course, was that the Roman Empire was simply too big a territory to swallow–for anyone. The Ummayads, of course, tried, but even though they had the power of all the Arab forces, it was an incredible stretch to say that they could rule over the entirety of this vast empire; indeed, the fragmentation of the Ummayad Caliphate occurred much faster than anyone could have guessed. Even in 669, an opportunistic Arab general by the name of Hawazin ate away at the furthest outreaches by declaring Aquitaine independent under an emirate of his name.

More important to the Caliphate, strategically speaking, was the sea of Mamara and accompanying straits, which were contested now by themselves and the opportunistic Khazars. Tensions were, of course, high, but there was little to be done there; even though the Arabs could cross the straits and give battle, they preferred negotiation, but negotiation, too, was at a deadlock.

Meanwhile, one of the few Romans left, an intelligent, obscure general by the name of Basil Comnenus took the majority of the Roman fleet away from the ruins of Constantinople, and sailed south, founding an empire of his own at Athens. It was small, unstable, and doubtless short-lived, except for the fact that he promised the Arabs that he would join with them against the Khazars if they guaranteed his independence; they agreed readily enough.

Then, in 670, the Bulgars exploded into open rebellion against the Khazars, determined to refound their kingdom of old; they had the support of the citizens of the area, and the managed to drive out the Khazar garrison. At the same time, the Arabs and the Greeks attacked the Khazars from behind, and the Arabs took the symbolic ruins of Constantinople that year.

In the end, the Khazars were driven back to beyond the Danube River valley, with the Greeks, Arabs, Bulgars, and another Roman successor, Illyria, occupying the remnants. Ironically, though, this actually worked in the favor of the Khazars in a way; the defeated remains of the Western Khazars were too weak to prevent reunification under a new, reinvigorated Khazar khaganate.

Interestingly, the Ummayad Caliphate continued to fracture far faster than might be expected, with the Irisid Caliphate breaking off in the far West, taking Al-Andalus with it, and soon exercising considerable influence over the Maghreb that eventually translated into open control over these areas; soon this breakaway caliphate took over Sicily and Southern Italy as well.

There, though, the breaking stopped, and the splinters that remained were somewhat plastered over by the Ummayads. While they had lost considerable territory, of course, Egypt, Arabia, Iraq, Anatolia, and Persia were all under their control, and a much more stable Caliphate resulted from this mess than otherwise would have occurred.

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Overstretched Empire+Overconfident Emperor+"Barbarians" who are actually quite familiar with the Romans=recipe for disaster. Keep in mind that this is a Constantinople that only in 628 CE was sacked by invading Persians and Avars; nowhere did the leaders find much time to give it a nice repair.
 
Anyone got any Ideas for what to call the technological age before the industrial? its a bit to late to really be called the Age of Discovery so what should I call it?...

Incidently as soon as someone answers this query then the NES will start...provided people are still interested of course ;)
 
OTL it would be Age of Enlightenment. You could also shoot for Early Modern, Age of Nationalism, Napoleanic age (though I doubt that fits yours), etc.
 
Nationalism will work - cheers. Expect the Nes to go up in an hour and a half...

Napolean was an important general in the Great Winter Timeline, but the greatly weakend french republic didn't let him fufill his dreams :(
 
Before that's the Enlightenment. Which doesn't really fit for backward states... Um... before that's the... Er... Well, it's the age of dynastic warfare in Europe, and of muskets... I would call it the Late Gunpowder Age...
 
Okay blame Panda for delays in the NES starting, whilst I skim read The Good Earth :lol:. Actually whats really delaying me is writing the big arse timeline of the Great Winter - as you may have noticed, I'm more of a cold hard facts man than flowing prose ;)
 
Ugh looks like I'll have to start in the morning - its time for sleep now. In the meantime here the time line I was talking about:

1772 12th November Mount Tambora in Indonesia erupts spewing vast amounts of Ash into the atmosphere, half a million people die from pyroclastic rain
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1773 summer never comes, global temperatures fall some 8 degrees, and massive crop failures occur worldwide, European nations begin massive emigration and food imports from North America.

1774 The ruinous food tithes imposed on the southern British colonies incites the colonists to revolt. British Evacuation efforts refocus on South Africa and the newly discovered Australia.
The French, seeing an opportunity to expand their own holdings back the colonists; clashes in Europe are kept to a minimum.
Portugal's power increases with food exports from Brazil.
Russia's war with Ottomans experiences a lull.
Cooperative farming collectives appear in the North American Amerindians

1775 The Gulf Stream shuts down as pack ice spreads in the Atlantic, Scandinavia experiences extensive glaciations, Iceland abandoned.
Spanish assistance forces Britain to acknowledge the colonies independence, but request they still take refugees.
The Great Food riots start in China, migrations occur out of Tibet.

1776 Northern European agriculture collapses, massive emigration to North America.
US unable to cope with the influx starts reducing the numbers let in.
Russians resume Ottoman war to secure agricultural land. Venice turns to the Ottomans to purchase food.
Russia rejoins war with the Ottomans, quickly taking the Crimea.

1777 Scandinavia abandoned in the face of increasing glaciations flooding the already dire Northern Europe, Finland's population reduced to a remnant.
Some clashes between the French and Americans results in War.
Spanish seize Florida.
Britain begins to systematically acquire Indonesian lands of other powers to feed Australia during its development.
Qing China broken under the riots and the Manchu flee to Manchuria.
Russian campaigns in the Caucasus supported by the Georgians.

1778 A surprising American victory leads to peace between France and America; the continent partitioned along the Mississippi.
American attention turns to Spanish in Florida.
Seeing opportunity for gain in Texas, the French enter the war on the American side.
Prussia, swollen with Swedish refugee’s annexes local German states.
Poland begins to reorganize.
A breakthrough by the Russians leads to the Capture of Mesopotamia; Russians begin systematic harvesting to feed their northern regions.

1779 British ally with Spain in an attempt to regain her American colonies, the Battle of Havana destroys the French fleet and the British land along the eastern Seaboard.
Amerindian collectives create the Third Gayanashagowa.
Sultan Selim III comes to power in the Ottoman Empire and begins extensive reforms.
Various Nomadic bands in Central Asia group together under Kalmyk control and begin mounting raids to secure supplies.

1780 A Spanish blockade throws France into the 'Five years of Chaos', Government collapses and the King flees to Louisiana, Americans reduced to holding actions in Florida and the east coast.
Peel's Rebellion begins in Manchester. Portugal reorganizes its military.
The Mesopotamian sources prove insufficient and Russia’s grip over the freezing north begins to fail.

1781 A cold winter (colder than the normal super frozen winter that is) results failures to put down Peels rebellion and it spreads across the north of England, many Scandinavians support it.
British make significant advances in North America and Indonesia.
Venice grows powerful from her dominating position as gateway to Egypt for Northern Europe.
Persian and Ottomans attack Russian positions in Mesopotamia, Russians forced to retreat north.
The Tibetan refugees and the Eastern Mongols take advantage of the Qing Collapse and exert their independence soon raiding deep into China for forage, adding to the Chaos there.

1782 Louisianan Empire Declared.
Spanish make more gains in Florida and Texas.
British forces overstretch and start to be pushed back, but resume colonial efforts in Canada anyway.
A number of Warlords arise in China and begin battling for dominance.
Lack of food spikes chaos in northern Russia as the government flees south after a particularly heavy winter, roving bands of Swedish and Finnish add to the troubles.

1783 Revitalized Louisianan Empire begins to push back the Spanish in Texas, the Portuguese enter the War on the American side, Spanish fleet mainly defeated and Florida is regained.

1784 Louisianans make gains in Texas and Americans land in Cuba, under Portuguese naval pressure the British are forced to abandon the battle for North America.
Many British forces travel north to Canada.
Ireland rebels successfully.
Russian imperial authority only extends half way up the Volga and the Northern cities are left effectively free, free to freeze really, but still independent.

1784 Attacks on coveys occur all over the Atlantic, supplies to both Portugal and Britain is severely reduced, but Portugal is not having to fight an internal rebellion, and is less affected by the winter anyway.
Spanish disengage from America after receiving guarantees of food shipments, Spanish Colonists fight on.
The Louisianans advance south of the Rio Grande, Portuguese grab all that they can in South America, though several states spring up.
Irish support gives the Portuguese a base for supplying the British rebels.
With most of its military overseas, and its manpower involved in the evacuations the Westminster Government loses ground to the Manchunians.

1785 The Siege of London results in a loss for Westminster, and they flee to Portsmouth.
Americans gain control of the entirety of Cuba.
The Spanish, with their colonies gone, seek power in Europe by invading the anarchic France.

1786 The Resolution Treaty allows the Monarchy and loyalists to flee to Australia, Oceans partitioned between the Portuguese and the British, Peel's revolt controls the British isles, Scotland breaks away, Americans seize Jamaica.
Marseille Junta declares the French Republic in response to Spanish aggression, Commander Buonaparte holds the Spanish back.
Louisiana reaches Mexico City, but resistance intensifies.

1787 Some forays north by the Americans are fiercely resisted by the British and the Third Gayanashagowa.
France reunites under the Republic, the Portuguese seeing another chance to remove their Spanish competitor ally with the New Republic.

1788 Surprisingly (for the Louisianans) the Americans Land in Central America and begin to carve out territory.
British Colonists (and representatives of the Australasia government) agree to the Fourth Gayanashagowa which unities them and the Amerindians into a nation; the British king named its lord Protector.
Spurred by Republican movements elsewhere a large force of Swedes and Finns declare the Novogorodian Republic.

1789 Seeking to reconnect with its Canadian subjects the Australasians land on the West Coast, seizing Spanish cities and colonizing British Colombia. The French Republic score several decisive victories and push into Spain.
One Warlord defeats the rest in china and establishes his control along the coast and in the south; the new Ming Dynasty is declared.

1790 Territory in Mexico is divided up between the Louisianans and the Americans, neither being particularly happy with the arrangement.
Keeping the Mexicans under control prevents further expansion by either Power, and Colombia, Hispaniola and the Incas all consolidate.
Australasians secure all of Indonesia and begin to move onto the Pacific and Indian oceans.
Portuguese and General Buonaparte's armies meet in Madrid, the Spanish defeated.
Attempting to regain some lands the Russians press once more into the Ottomans, now that they are relatively weaker the Ottomans are able to contain the Russians and the border remains static till the end of the Winter as the Russians hunker down to survive.
With the Russians entrenched, Selim decides to remove another problem and declares war on the Persians.

1791 Portugal wanting a buffer state and the Republic not having the manpower to hold the new lands sees the formation of the Spanish Republic. Australasia seizes the Philippians and Madagascar.
Fearful of the French Republics growing power the Venetians use their economic might and German mercenaries to secure control over most of Italy.
Ming China retakes Annam and begins assembling a vast army; with the people starving this is not particularly difficult.

1792 The French Republic annexes the Low Countries relatively peacefully as well as the Rhineland and begins to expand her army.

1793

1794 Selims conquest of Persia is complete, helped in the latter stages by the Marathas moving against the Afghans in the east and the raids from nomads in the north.

1795 French Republic retakes North Africa

1796 The Vast Ming Horde overrun Siam and Bengal, the Australasians have superior weaponry but nowhere near the manpower to hold them back, though the coastal cities remain unconquered for several years.
Australasians begin supplying weapons to the Tibetan Mongols and the Manchu.
The Maratha Confederacy makes some gains as princely states break away from the Australasians whilst their limited manpower is elsewhere.

1797 Russia attempts 'one last push' against the Ottomans

1798 French Republic invades Ottoman Egypt, seeking the rich agricultural Lands there; 'Freely volunteered' forces from the republic of Spain assist them as does a Greek rebellion.
The Ottomans occupied against the Russians cannot counterattack effectively, but Venice acts to secure her monopoly and defeats the French fleet, stops the rebelling Greeks with a bit of bribery and harries the French in Egypt.
Cut off from their support base the French march back to North Africa and cross back in French controlled waters.

1799 Retaining control of Egypt as the Ottomans are still occupied elsewhere, the Venetians are attacked by the French in Italy, pushing back and forth over the course of the year. Prussia persuaded into supporting the Italians.

1800 With both sides running low on manpower, the French and Italians sign peace with concessions to the French and Spanish in Italy. Venice retains control over Greece and Egypt in exchange for assisting the Ottomans against Russians. Russians soon pushed back to the 1797 border.

1801 Americans invade Colombia, Louisianan and Australasian support force the Americans out, the Portuguese maintaining Neutrality.

1802 Australasians Open Japan to the World.
Ottomans annex the east African coast, but do not exploit it effectively; Australasia does not have the strength to contest this currently.

1803

1804 Australasians on the West Coast finally find a pass to the Fourth Gayanashagowa/Dominion of Canada, reuniting them into one nation after extensive concessions are made to the Amerindians.

1805 Japan starts a modernizing Campaign.

1806

1807 Ash levels begin to fall.
Restocked somewhat in strength the Louisianan Empire begins a push to the north and west, soon comes into conflict with the Australasians/Canadians; tensions mount and skirmishes occur sporadically over the next few years.

1808

1809 The New Ming China retakes the North China Plain, defeated the local Warlords.

1810

1811 'Normal' Climate resumes in most of the World

1812 A border incident has the Lousine Empire invading California, Los Angeles is quickly taken but resistance is fierce and a counterattack down the Mississippi threatens the Louisianan Heartlands.
Venice, using their Egyptian ports, establishes a presence in the Indian Ocean and India itself, taking the long abandoned and chaotic Gao area.

1813 The Australasians and Louisianans sign the Treaty of San Francisco, deeding Southern California to the French except for the Naval base in Los Cabos, Whilst the Fourth Gayanashagowa/Dominion of Canada is made an independent nation with some of its former territory under the Louisines emperors control, he being named protector of the Fourth Gayanashagowa in those regions, both monarchs agree to support each others claims in Europe, a dream that seems increasingly distant.

1814 Gulf Stream returns to its original course. Australasians and Japanese intervene against the Ming incursion into Manchuria.

1815 Another Skirmish is fought between the Australasians and the Ming as a Thai rebellion occurs.

1816 'The Springtime' has begun; massive growth begins in most nations as agricultural production rises once more.

1817

1818 Russia begins to regain the north, taking cities to its north which have not been under direct imperial control for some time, progress is slow as the nearly destroyed infrastructure needs to be rebuilt, and the Russians are watchful of an attack from the south.

1819 Tibetan-Mongols restore Lhasa (somewhat hastily as a cold snap closes in the glaciers again for a few years) and declares a Holy Kingdom, eager to keep their new independence. The Australasians, seeing a new ally against the Ming send what aid they can through the still thawing mountain passes.

1820

1821

1822

1823 Extensive Glaciation of Mountains regions finally over.

1824 Prussia begins colonization of Sweden (despite protests from Swedes in other nations), Scotland does the same in Norway (though rather more land is returned to the refugees) and the French Republic extends herself into the vacant Switzerland.

1825

1826 US emerges as 'Workshop of the World'

1827

1828

1829 Most nations are now undergoing a population boom and tensions among old enemies are beginning to rise. The World has been greatly scarred by the winter and the world population is at an estimated 340 million, meaning 680 million have died or were never born in the last 50 years of horror. It is an empty world, a clean world...a world for the taking...

1830 NOW
 
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