ALC Game #5: England/Victoria

Hey all! I love the debate and the fun in these threads you make Sisiutil, they are very entertaining! Anyway, I noticed the comment about wanting to see an easy way to know how many turns were left on the unhappy faces from whipping. Its a bit arcane but if you hover your mouse across the "whip button" shown in the city screen, it shows X amount of turns.

Obviously 10 when you first use it. So it will say 10 rounds. However if you hover your mouse over the "whip button" 5 turns after you used the whip it will say 15 turns. Basically saying you will have 15 rounds of unhappy faces if you whip again right now.

Sooo basically you subtract 10 from the current value you get when you hover your mouse over the "whip button" as the current amount of unhappiness this round. If you were aware of this, then perhaps someone else may have learned something new! I would post a picture but hey this is my first post and don't want to appear to ostentatious, or ok ill confess i dont know how .

Cheers,
Pet

Petrucci said:

this is my first post and don't want to appear to ostentatious, or ok ill confess i dont know how .

Cheers,
Pet

Click to expand...

welcome to the forums Pet, and nice trick

I think a Cultural Victory is easily possible, there are four religions accessible on the continent, and 3-4 Great Commerce Cities (London, Hastings, Pig's Ear*, Coventry*)
*Pig's ear= more to develop but higher maximum, Coventry=Faster to develop but lower maximum

I'd say get Monarchy, (you already have monotheism I assume) Get a Buddhist Monstery and begin Spreading it, use the Next Great Prophet [From A.W. and its Priests in London] to get Theology (for Theocracy, Christianity is a minor bonus, and The Sistine a significant bonus if you are going Cultural)

All remaining GPs should definitely go into Shrines though... (use A.W. to get the Priests to get any ones you feel you need)... you could stick with just the Captured Shrines.

Produce:
A.W. in London
Cats and Axes most other places
1 Worker pretty much every where, definitely agree with that you need
1-resources hooked up
2-Chopping
3-Development
G. Library, probably in Hastings which has wood to Chop (don't chop for the Library or Granary those can be whipped just as easily, Whipping Wonders is Hard).. and Don't Chop it until your Marble is Hooked up.

Research:
Literature,
Machinery
useful for moving immediately into a War with Isabella once Monty is Finished off (no production needed, just a shift to Gold...100 Gold per highly promoted Maceman)

Currency, Calendar, Iron Working would follow or can be traded for
Then I'd go, [Drama->Music if you want Cultural Win] Paper->Education->Liberalism [Printing Press]-> Rest of Redcoat Beeline (Feudalism, Guild, Banking, RP, Gunpowder, Rifling)

Then Finish off Washington and go for the desired win: Domination, Space Race/Cultural [for Cultural you could probably flip the Slider after getting Redcoats, Washington's Mids+Liberalism+Banking gives you all the Governments you need]

Krikkitone said:

Then Finish off Washington and go for the desired win: Domination, Space Race/Cultural [for Cultural you could probably flip the Slider after getting Redcoats, Washington's Mids+Liberalism+Banking gives you all the Governments you need]

Click to expand...

Pyramids are definitely a great addition to a cultural win. Just be careful that if you take this approach, you better really finish off Washington -- either completely or to the point where he has no chance at all of rebuilding. The last thing you want while you're cruising toward the tail end of your cultural win is an angry neighbor who learns how to build tanks.

Believe me, I'm well aware of all the unimproved tiles. I usually go to war earlier and capture several workers. That hasn't happened. This is why that worker building a farm right next to my Woodsman Axe is sooooooo tempting. I need a cartload of workers, I know that, but they take a damn long time to build. Much easier to capture them, so that's what I'm off to do.

I dunno, the last round felt--unfocused. Too many options, too many things to do, not enough good ways to do them. Part way through it, I was tempted to scrap it, skip a day, and try again from the 700 BC save, but I kept at it and got the mediocre results you saw. Maybe it's the whipping throwing me off; I'm not used to doing it so much. Maybe it's getting up early to watch the World Cup and staying up late to play Civ.

Hmmm, yes, Alphabet--my nemesis tech in the last game, if you recall. So I think you can understand my avoidance of it thus far. But I think its time has come. Probably after construction and hunting.

I definitely think the next round will be better. Cats will make me bolder versus all those cities on hills. I'm forseeing a war against Monty with Axes, the next one against Isabella with Maces, and the third once against Washington with Redcoats. So yes, I think I'm headed for domination or possibly space race rather than the much-talked-about-but-not-yet-achieved cultural. Sorry gang, but with the loony bin neighbours, there wasn't much choice!

Actually that sounds perfect for cultural, after the Redcoat war, you can switch the cultural slider and have 3-4 cities producing

~12 Towns, at 8 Commerce, with 4 Cathedrals and Free Speech gives 300 culture per turn, without considering Wonders, Religions, Buildings, etc. And at least two shrines means you can run at ~90% culture and not lose money

Krikkitone said:

Actually that sounds perfect for cultural, after the Redcoat war, you can switch the cultural slider and have 3-4 cities producing

~12 Towns, at 8 Commerce, with 4 Cathedrals and Free Speech gives 300 culture per turn, without considering Wonders, Religions, Buildings, etc. And at least two shrines means you can run at ~90% culture and not lose money

Click to expand...

Interesting point! Let me get the wars done and see where we stand. I'll try to keep some cultural stuff on the boil in the background.

Krikkitone said:

Actually that sounds perfect for cultural, after the Redcoat war, you can switch the cultural slider and have 3-4 cities producing

~12 Towns, at 8 Commerce, with 4 Cathedrals and Free Speech gives 300 culture per turn, without considering Wonders, Religions, Buildings, etc. And at least two shrines means you can run at ~90% culture and not lose money

Click to expand...

Indeed. There really isn't any magical deadline coming up where you need to build all your temples within the next 20 turns or give up on cultural. That's ridiculous. Four temples doubling their culture after 1000 years gives you an extra 4 culture. One town will give you 8. Which seems more important?

I'm not saying neglect the buildings. Get them going as soon as you can, but if there's a good reasaon to wait then wait. As long as your cities are producing piles of commerce, you can buy whatever buildings you need and the rest will take care of itself.

One extra cathedral will do more for culture all by itself than any early temples you can build. Discover religions, spread them, switch to Universal Suffrage, then kick back and watch the magic happen as you buy all your cultural buildings.

The biggest two things for cultural wins seem to be

1. Religions
2. ability to ensure peace

You've got #1 (4 is enough.. 7 is best, but # 2 is more important)
Redcoats are perfect for #2..Strong midtech defensive unit

#3 would be a GA farm, but that's not something you really need to race for.

[disengaging lurking device]

Hi Sisiutil,

This is actually my first post ever on these forums (after a looong time lurking). I just wanted to add my thanks to you and everyone that is actively posting ideas in the ALC threads. Thanks to these, I am now winning consistently in random starts on Prince.

So everyone understands the magnitude of this, I've been playing civ since the beginning and rarely advanced beyond the second difficulty level.

I'm even starting to eye Monarch now.....

Thanks again!

[reengaging lurking device]

The key to getting the most out of Redcoats is to get them early. If you are thinking about going to claim the Pyramids from Washington (after putting down the psychos), you'll need the Redcoats. Drama and Music? Only if you seriously believe that a cultural win is feasable.

I just won a cultural with three religions.

Dr. Elmer is right. Getting early temples is nice but not critical.

Also: on Prince level, if your civilization is doing OK generally, you don't need to commit to a culture win until sometime between 1000 and 1500 AD. (Speaking from experience here -- I've been playing a lot at Prince, and winning more cultural than otherwise.)

You're in decent shape. Take Monty down, then consider your options.


Waldo

City building may seem to have been a diversion or holding exercise but it should stand you in good stead for combining cultural development with a mad dog fight. London to produce units/missionaries; Hastings and probably Nottingham to do culture builds (religion+research); 4 other towns to whip for military once they've got granary and barracks.
Tech wise I'd agree with alphabet after construction, hunting presumably for camping up in the tundra, maybe go for literature to make start on GL in Hastings, definite bonus if you could hook up the marble. Then go metal-casting/machinery (possibly quick divert to monotheism if you get a Prophet and non-one's snagged theology).
Edit: at this point redcoats are still a while away even with a beeline. Should be able to eliminate monte with axes and cats, poss Bella too but should be heading close to maces by then anyway. Wipe out those two then review strategy vs George and Pyramids (remembering of course you get no culture for captured wonders).

Round 6: to 1110 AD

Yes, a lot of turns this round. A lot happened, and after the previous unsatisfying round, this one just got better and better, so I succumbed to "one more turn" syndrome. I mean, just look at the time on this post!

To start things off, I declared war on Montezuma by snatching a badly-needed worker from him:



I also changed several of the builds, based on feedback from this thread, such as abandoning Nottingham's walls. That city still had to face the brunt of Monty's wrath, but it did so quite well. The worst indignity it suffered was the pillaging of the pig pasture and the road to it.

I finished researching Construction, grabbed Hunting in one turn for Spearmen to counter Monty's Chariots, and then went after Alphabet. When I had that in hand, I went shopping. No surprise, I got the biggest bang for my buck from Washington:



Not a bad deal, I thought. And it turns out I have two sources of iron available immediately, including one right beside Nottingham, and a couple of others not too far outside my borders. This was the only tech trade I did, however. I have a considerable advantage over Washington and I am reluctant to give it up. I even researched Calendar on my own, though both Washington and Izzy had it. I just didn't want to give them something like Metal Casting for it.

One other suggestion taken and executed was the next build in London:



I gotta say I'm growing more and more fond of Great Prophets. They pop a lot of useful techs right through to mid-game, they build lucrative shrines, and when all that's done, they make very profitable super-specialists. Having priest specialists contribute an extra hammer doesn't suck, either.

Speaking of Great Prophets, AW meant I popped the next one shortly thereafter:



Unfortunately, someone beat me to Theology and Christianity. With all the diversionary tech research, I'm not too surprised. I have two holy cites, and I plan on capturing two more, so I'm philosophical about it. (Heh. Philosphical. Get it? I discovered philosophy, remember? Hmph. If you have to explain it, it ain't funny...)

I still used the GP for Theology so I could run the theocracy civic. The only problem was I had converted to Buddhism and only had that religion in two cities, one of which, Hastings, was going to be my science city and therefore would not be building military units. No problem: I built a Buddhist monastery there--10% research bonus, remember--and then produced some Buddhist missionaries to convert some military cities.

Speaking of military: the war with Monty went as predicted. He threw Jaguars and Chariots at me, I countered with Axemen and Spears. I razed two annoying little cities, first the one east of York, then another one he plunked down south of that city in the desert, right on top of the incense. Meanwhile I was busily building Catapults. Some of them I whipped, but many of my cities were getting productive enough to not need the whip, and with war weariness escalating, I was reluctant to add to it. Unless the WW got really bad; then I put various items in the queue and checked to see if whipping would solve the happiness problem. A few times (such as rushing a forge in Coventry), it did. So the use of the whip is still very much alive in this game, though I suspect there are others who yeild it far more effectively than me.

Eventually, with the help of several catapults, I took the Aztec capital:



I had to pause for a few turns and let most of my units heal. Even after the cultural defenses were removed, Tenochtitalan's defenders, fortified on a hill, were not easy to dislodge.

In fact, this was my second attempt to take the city. I'd tried earlier after my first and only Catapult removed the defenses then did some collateral damage. But I lost several axes trying to take out the still-strong defenders. The end result was frustrating: there was one Archer left defending the city, at 0.8 strength, but I was out of attackers. I had the wounded Cat and three CR Axes left and thought I could take it on the next turn, but then Monty reinforced it. So I had to wait until fresh troops arrived. The second time, with more catapults, I fared much better.

And there was more good news. Despite escalating war weariness and with the help of some mines and chops, Hastings finished its first wonder:



I know you can just run a couple of science specialists to approximate the Great Library's effects, but the extra GP points towards a GS are great too. And the GL's specialists don't disappear if citizens become unhappy because, oh, I dunno, you're at war or someting.

Speaking of that. War weariness was, indeed, becoming a problem. I had taken three cities, and each time you do that, it escalates. I had also lost a few units in the process, and not just catapults, as I mentioned, and losing units also makes WW worse. On top of which, the war dragged on. I started it a little sooner than I liked in order to snag a worker, and it took a long time to get catapults and roads built.

So I took my only extra resource around to my buddy George:



Normally I wouldn't trade a metal, but remember George had Iron Working, and I had seen Axemen in his cities, so he had iron. Rather than being dangerous, then, I was just making it easier for him to build a Taoist Pagoda.

Or the Colossus. Hmmmm...

Meanwhile, Isabella is getting positively dewey-eyed over me:



Batting eyelashes and heaving bosoms aside, the little minx plunked down a city just north of Coventry--right next to the cow tile, in fact, threatening to take it via border expansion. It's acting as barb bait, but it's annoying. Isabella, sweetie, I hate to say it, but...you're next.

I have Macemen now, and she doesn't even have Feudalism for Longbows. I know she'll bee-line to it if I attack her, but no matter. Longbows can't stand up to Cats and Maces in large numbers. I just gotta set aside some cash to upgrade my best CR units.

And while most of my cities were producing military units, London had other things to do. Such as wonders, like this one:



YES!!! The dream of a cultural win is very much alive. Three religions, soon to be four, and the Sistine Chapel. The SC is not essential to a cultural win, but if you're not a Creative civ, it certainly does help.

Another thing that will help, but in a different way, is this:



With my research plunging because of the war, and with several sea-based resources near my cities, the Colossus was very attractive. It, together with Currency (which I finished researching on the same round) took me from the red to the black at 40% research right away. I'm also, finally, starting to build courthouses. And thanks to Currency I'm building markets in my most lucrative cities, like London.

I took several more of Monty's cities (and must remember to rename the unpronouncable things). I have elected to keep almost all of these older, larger, more established cities. Otherwise, the AI civs would just settle in their locations. One, Teotihuacan, gave me immediate access to dye once it emerged from revolt. The others are more strategic than anything else. All of them are under pressure from either American or Spanish cultural encroachment, so I'll have to rush missionaries down to them. I need to go after Drama soon for theatres.

Or maybe I'll just kick some a**. Like this:

"Cry God for Vicky, England, and SAINT GEOOOOOOOOOOOOORGE!!!"



And Monty is no more. He's passed on. He has ceased to be. He's expired and gone to meet his maker. He's kicked the bucket, he's shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! HE IS AN EX-MONTY!!



Yes, that's a Level 5 unit! I'm building the Heroic Epic in York and I'm now set to later build West Point there as well.

Thanks to that good ol' Financial trait and some cottage spam, my economy is not a complete shambles. Yes, I'm making a diversionary run for Music--taking a gamble on getting the GA--but after that and Drama, it's back to the Redcoat path.

Now I have to start thinking about war with Isabella. One question is, how soon? As I said, she doesn't have feudalism yet, but as soon as she does, you know she'll upgrade all her Archer to more formidable Longbows, requiring me to follow suit and upgrade several of my Axes and Spears to Macemen.

I have to think about religion, too. Do I stick with Buddhism or switch? Washington is still Hindu, and I now have its holy city, and shortly, once I get another Great Prophet, I could have its shrine. Don't forget I have Taoism and Confucianism as well, and Divine Right is still available for Islam; I could use the GP to help with that.

And my economy! I need more markets, and more cottages. Thankfully, I have a lot more workers now, thanks to several captures during the war. So I should be able to bring my calendar resources on-line soon and cottages, cottages, cottages. I'm also building lighthouses in my coastal cities to take advantage of the Colossus.

And now I also need to start thinking about National Wonders. As I mentioned, I'm building Heroic Epic in York, but I could be persuaded to abandon it. Still, I think that's a good location for it. York has limited growth potential as a city, but it makes for a good military production centre. I've said before that I don't like putting HE and WP in my best production city.

Now, what about Forbidden Palace? I need a few more courthouses, and then it will be available. Should I build it soon or hold off and put it in Spain somewhere? Before we decide on that, if I GP-rush Divine Right, that also gives me a leg up on Versailles.

And a GP farm? Probably one of the cities in the jungle I took from Monty. Which one, and how soon?

And if I'm keeping the Cultural victory option open, I need to start thinking about the three cities. London is obviously one. But what about the others? I don't see any obvious candidates yet; I'll have to select them and start working towards it.

And by the way, I may skip playing tomorrow night and not post an ALC round as a result. Between this and World Cup, I need to catch up on my sleep!

Here's the save:

Sisiutil:its a bit of a minor quibble but could you post when you're starting to play your next round coz otherwise you get out-dated suggestions (like my previous post).
For culture it might have been better to distribute your wonder building more evenly between your potential legends or you end up with super-powered capital and little else.
Isabella? The sooner the better.

about the "deadline" i stated for a cultural go, my point was about 2 different things (one multiplying the other) :
- buildings give you culture when they are built, and not before, so 200 turns before starting to build a monastery = 400 culture lost.
- buildings' culture gets doubled after 1000 years. 1000 years are only a few turns in the beginning, and are 1000 turns (not available, time victory isn't what you're looking for!) in the late game.

True, you can "buy" culture through commerce later, with your towns.
But you'll see that london with it's early wonders will have no problem to be legendary, while the 2 others will have to "run" a lot longer.
So, now that it's not done, you have 2 options :
1) domination : better option if your continent is big enough.
2) late cultural through slider, still very much manageable, thanks to the numerous religion you have access to.
Do you know where the missing religions have been founded? Not that you need them, but they can save a few turns.

1) is pretty straight forward : use your tech lead to the max and build courthouses everywhere.
2) Going for music is a good thing, the free GA can be added as superspecialist (gives a good use to sistin chapel!) to your n°3 big one wanabee (which one would that be? look at the number of towns you can have in your various cities + number of wonders already built, give it to n°3 in "potential" = big commerce but no wonders yet, or big wonders but not so much commerce).

some remarks (no critic, since you did well) :
building all those wonders in london is somewhat wasteful towards a culture victory, and makes it really difficult to foresee what GP you'll get.
In a domination game, a merchant is great. In a cultural victory it is a waste.

Prophets are still needed : all those shrines to build!
I'm somewhat disapointed you used one for theology that you didn't need, but you made a good rush to the sistin chapel, so it's not bad. In fact, it's brilliant .
But now you need those shrines! Remember, they are built immediately and start giving culture immediately too, not counting the cash

Now, my guess would be to
1) cancel the trade of copper with washington, bribe isa to go to war against him then backstab the loser (after rebuilding your economy somewhat).
2) Choose domination or cultural, and build accordingly either some army and loads of culture buildings or loads of army and some monasteries in Hastings.
3) Use london as GP farm for a while. You need prophets, and with ankor wat + oracle + stonehenge + priest specialists (Ankor wat lets you use a lot!) you can feed thanks to the high food you have there, it should be easy. Bad move to have the colossus there, it will give a few % merchant (bleh) pollution.
Don't build the national epic there if you want to get artists later!

cabert said:

- buildings give you culture when they are built, and not before, so 200 turns before starting to build a monastery = 400 culture lost.

Click to expand...

But, as Krikkitone pointed out, 300+ culture per turn from your big 3 cities is not uncommon. In fact, I would say that in my experience, 300 per turn is about the worst possible culture per turn that I've ever seen from one of the big 3. Usually it's closer to 400 per turn. So in the end, that 200 turns before starting the monastery costs you 1 or maybe 2 turns before you win, maybe 6 turns if you're waiting before building each of 3 monasteries.

Thirteen workers and ten 'pults -- interesting. We diverged so much in playing this from 700 BC, that I'm not going to play it anymore. It should be enjoyable to watch though.

Caste System: You really don't need whipping anymore in my opinion and haven't since the 700 BC save. Caste System would allow using surplus population as artists (and engineers, priests, etc.) as needed. Isa can't stand up to specialized artist culture when she attempts to place cities close to you, especially in suboptimal places. Moreover, you can use them in cities coming out of anarchy after capture. 'Coupled with the HR civic, it makes for quick recovery.

Whether or not to take on Isa depends on how much damage you intend to inflict. Will it be a short war of consolidation or do you want to take her out or just hurt her a lot? The same is true for America, although the Americans have a nice wonder in Washington and looks like another in Boston if I viewed the tile properly (25% defense bonus until Rifling).

Domination, you need to own the continent obviously. Space race, you need a dominating position and strong economy to fuel the tech lead. Cultural, you need a long period of peace when you're ready for it.

Should be fun to watch.

Dr Elmer Jiggle said:

But, as Krikkitone pointed out, 300+ culture per turn from your big 3 cities is not uncommon. In fact, I would say that in my experience, 300 per turn is about the worst possible culture per turn that I've ever seen from one of the big 3. Usually it's closer to 400 per turn. So in the end, that 200 turns before starting the monastery costs you 1 or maybe 2 turns before you win, maybe 6 turns if you're waiting before building each of 3 monasteries.

Click to expand...

6 turns is a lot, isn't it?
Plus you lose 2 cpt for every not old enough monastery * (1+bonus)
bonus being something like 400% (free speech + 4 cathedrals + ermitage than you'll obviously build in the least culture growing city) = 10 cpt for every not yet built monastery = 40 cpt with 4 religions.
20 more with temples not yet built.

so, delaying the build, you lost 60 cpt in the lowest wanabee in the end + maybe 12 turns (it's not 3 religions, it's 4, and there are monasteries and temples, so 3 cpt/religion) from the culture not yet gained.
I think it's a big delay. Something like 25/30 more turns of 0% research is indeed a big risk.
The first turns at 0% research won't make any difference. The AIs just catching up. After that, they gain a tech advantage. Then they start seeing you as a prey.
Then they attack. Not only one of them. All of them (unless hatchepetsuh, who is so kind, is still alive).
25/30 turns of fighting back infantry/artillery with redcoats are no joke!

Eggolas said:

Caste System: You really don't need whipping anymore in my opinion and haven't since the 700 BC save. Caste System would allow using surplus population as artists (and engineers, priests, etc.) as needed.

Click to expand...

No.
With caste system you may have artists, merchants, scientists.
no engineers or priests (unless you have the buildings supporting them).

And AFAIK, the best GP farms are london (big food, numerous priests possibilities) and hastings (2 free scientists). Those don't need caste system to be efficient. Slavery is cheaper, even if you don't use the whip (i would use it, though not in London, but those captured city can be whipped dry if you need courthouses).