ALC Game #5: England/Victoria

Yeah, if you Want a Cultural win, you can do it with the map you have now, go ahead finish off Isabella,

With Hermitage, Free Speech and 5 Religions, Coventry can get a multiplier of +450% or 5.5

If you Avoid Astronomy (useless if you go Mercantilist) Coventry can produce
4 culture per sea tile
8 per flat land tile

15 from religious buildings
5 From Religions (if Free Religion)
8 from non religious cultural buildings
6 more from at least one Artist (possibly more)

and some amount from the Hermitage and Globe themselves and Colossus

With the two Shrines (and probably some more with London Great Prophets) you can admittedly go 100% anything

As you head towards redcoats, I feel like I should raise an unanswered question from the pregame thread (also, I happen to be playing Victoria in my own game, so my motives for asking aren't entirely unselfish ). Does anyone know whether grenadiers' 50% vs. riflemen applies to redcoats? I'm guessing it does, but it seems like it could go either way depending on exactly how it's implemented.

Dr Elmer Jiggle said:

Does anyone know whether grenadiers' 50% vs. riflemen applies to redcoats? I'm guessing it does, but it seems like it could go either way depending on exactly how it's implemented.

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It does: the attack bonus for grenadiers specifies UNITCLASS_RIFLEMAN, and UNIT_ENGLISH_REDCOAT is of class UNITCLASS_RIFLEMAN.

Reference: Civ4UnitInfos.xml

Also note that the bonus gets munged a bit, as redcoats have a bonus against gunpowder units.

Round 8: to 1700 AD

War and peace. And war.

The round started off as one might expect, with Washington getting crushed under my Macemen's boot heels:



That's Chicago, by the way, which I razed as it was a typically pointless AI city, built just because there was a tile free. New York and Washington were perfectly capable of working all the resource tiles nearby.

I also twiddled with the research slider a bit and managed to win the Liberalism race:



Yes, I chose Astronomy, not Printing Press. Why?

• First off, Redcoats are not as important now. Washington is almost finished, Isabella is weak. So I didn't feel the need to rush to them.
• In spite of capturing the Pyramids and changing civics to Police State, as I feared, I still had war weariness and happiness issues. I unfortunately did not change to the Slavery civic from Serfdom (groan!) so I could whip those unhappy citizens away. Solution? Trade with Qin, Peter, and Freddy for happiness resources. It worked splendidly, by the way.
• I was only operating at 40% research and needed an income boost. The solution was, again, similar. Once I had my happiness resources, I traded some additional resources to the three amigos across the pond for all the gold they could muster. I was able to raise the science slider to 50%.

Ya gotta remember that Astronomy doesn't just enable intercontinental trade routes; it enables all intercontinental trading.

I find this abundance of trade-worthy resources is a big mid-game advantage to early warring. Thanks to all the territory you've grabbed, you get multiple resources which you can trade away for whatever you need--health resources, happiness resources, or my favourite, gold.

Unfortunately, I lost the race to Economics and its free Great Merchant. Qin won that, and he beat me to the Taj Mahal as well. I find I rarely win both the Liberalism and Economics races on Prince. I'm going to give the Physics race a try, however. I have several good science cities, so an extra GS for another Academy would be handy.

I also got some help from an unexpected quarter. As I conquered American cities, Isabella had a couple of units wandering around, keeping an eye on events. And every now and then, I'd see one of these guys wandering through my territory:



Good old Izzy, spreading the good word of Buddhism for me so I don't have to build missionaries for that religion myself. Instead, I've been building some Confucian missionaries and spreading that religion, since I have its shrine. I'll soon have Buddhism's too, of course. Heh heh heh...

And before long, it was all over by the cryin':





And Washington is no more. I started moving all my veterans over to Philadelphia, my city closest to Madrid, from where I could launch my attack on Isabella.

I did not do this right away, however. I decided to take a few turns to do some infrastructure building. The first thing I did was a massive civics change:



Huh? Caste System and Mercantilism when I have Astronomy and Free Trade? And Organized Religion rather than Free Religion?

Yup. I needed the free specialists, most of whom I made into merchants, more than I needed the trade routes. I also plan on producing several missionaries to send overseas. And since I'm building infrastructure, OR's building booster won't hurt either. I also want to retain the benefit of the Spiral Minaret for a while, and I want to try to convert at least one of the civs on the other continent.

Universal Suffrage was immediately useful, allowing me to rush build courthouses in some of the less-productive cities I took from Washington. It also made Wicklow, with several towns, much more productive. And Free Speech meant I could reclaim tiles faster, as well as get a financial bonus from the towns I have.

Peter dropped by around this time and wanted to do a tech trade:



Normally I forgo mid-game trades when I have a pretty good lead, but Gunpowder was big on my list, of course.

I got my next Great Person, too, a Great Scientist out of Hastings. I sent him to London, my #2 science city, to build an Academy there:



I also got my six universities built and chop-rushed Oxford in Hastings. I'd been saving a couple of forests expressly for that purpose. London is also no longer the capital; I moved it to Washington. Remember Nottingham has Versailles. And I'll build Forbidden Palace later--possibly in Philadelphia or Madrid, if I forgo conquering the other continent.

I also built another national wonder--the National Epic. I put it in London. Yeah, it doesn't need it for culture, but I wouldn't mind a few more Great Prophets for shrines. I own Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism, and Islam, while Izzy owns Buddhism and Christianity. Only the Confucian and Buddhist shrines have been built so far.

But enough building. Back to warmongering!

Very shortly after this, I finally got access to those wonderful Redcoats:



Yes, I decided to delay my war with Isabella not only to build infrastructure, but to get these guys into play. It would give me a huge advantage and ensure I could get the war over with quickly. I even delayed raising the science slider as high as I could have, because I wanted to bank enough funds to upgrade most of my City Raider III Macemen.

No sense being hasty, though. First I checked the diplomatic advisor to see if I'd be royally ticking someone off by going after Isabella.



Well, what a surprise--it seems no one's warming up to our favourite religious fanatic. She's fond of me, though. I've remained Buddhist, despite spreading Confucianism, even overseas (I'm hoping to convert Peter). It's in all my cities, Izzy has spread it for me, and Madrid will have a very lucrative shrine as a result. I'm thinking of building Wall Street there.

Oh well, time to break the bad news:



Look, it's just not working out. No, it's not you, it's me. I'm just, uh, not ready for a commitment. What? No, of course I haven't met someone else! There aren't any other female leaders in this game...

Good thing I got outta there before the waterworks started. I hate that. It's always awkward.

So the battle plan looks like this:



Madrid is the main prize, so it gets taken first. Then the stack splits up and sets off in two different directions. The first stack will capture Barcelona and Cordoba, while the second one will grab Seville (the Christian holy city) and raze a couple of lousy little cities Izzy plunked down in the space created when I took the American ones.

In this way I hope to alleviate the cultural pressure on Madrid as quickly as possible. I want it to be lucrative, and that means retaining as much of its population as I can.

I have Knights in all of the cities closest to hers to handle any pillagers, and I'm building some more Redcoats to send over that way just to be on the safe side. The main unit I'm likely to need, however, are Catapults, so as my cities finish their current builds, that's what several of them will switch to.

I should mention that Isabella has one or two Musketmen (Washington had one in the dying turns of the war with him as well). Either she traded for Gunpowder or she bee-lined to it. But that's her best unit. Other than that, she has Longbowmen and one or two Maces and Pikes. No horses, so no mounted units. Including Conquistadors. Sorry, babe.

So really, taking her out is a foregone conclusion. The real question is, what comes next? I have Redcoats and Galleons. Should I press that advantage overseas in pursuit of a domination win? Qin certainly deserves a spanking, and I could wind up with every single holy city! Most of the civs over there have Chemistry, so the best unit I'd be facing, initially, is Grenadiers. Formidable, but not awe-inspiring. Especially if, after Physics, I bee-line to Steel for Cannons and Military Tradition for Cavalry.

Or, with my own continent firmly in my grasp (save for one lousy little city Freddy built North of Coventry), I could go after space race or possibly even cultural. Though I'd better get on with things if I want the latter.

I dunno, I'm leaning towards domination--it just looks to be the most fun at this point! I'd have to start building my fleet of Galleons NOW, though...

<i>Look, it's just not working out. No, it's not you, it's me. I'm just, uh, not ready for a commitment. What? No, of course I haven't met someone else! There aren't any other female leaders in this game... </i>

Yes there are. There's you, my dear Victoria.

And what a trail of broken hearts you're leaving behind! Monty... too barbaric, I suppose. Washington, "too powerful". Uh huh. And now poor Isabella...

And if I recall correctly, every one of them had "friendly" or better relations before you attacked.

Oh, you cruel vixen, you.


Waldo

Sisiutil said:

So really, taking her out is a foregone conclusion.

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True enough, but you might want to notice that you are being a little sloppy (it won't burn you here, but its something you should watch for).

Cases:
Your stack has no defensive units in it. Everybody is promoted raider raider raider. Having a couple CI CII pinch units would be a good thing (grenadiers sometimes appearing very suddenly).

The medic should probably have been left without the upgrade, so that you don't defend with it.

There are at least two workers available to be pinched now, at essentially no risk of counter attack. Why wait?

I'd also suggest that your approach thus far has been costing you time - you've been delaying your attacks long enough that your natural edge (being a human, rather than an AI) isn't getting much leverage to speak of. Given the current conditions of contest, that means bupkis, but attacking with more equal forces might easily mean reaping the benefits sooner. Which is not to say that I would do differently - averting risk isn't without value either, and sooner doesn't always mean faster.

OK you Could go cultural, but with Getting Astronomy, and Scientific Method (no new Monasteries) means its Much Harder... Yeah Just go for Domination... Get all the Religions

For the 'War Government' I'd basically keep your Civics the same
Gov: US is good enough for Production (WW can be countered with the Slider)
Legal: Free Speech helps for production [with US cash rushing] and Border popping
Labor+Economy: Caste+Mercantilism is very Good for Border popping (Free Artist in each new town... for a total of +12 culture..Sistine+Free Speech... 1 turn border expansion)
Religion: Organized Religion is needed to Spread your Religions, and build infrastructure.

I'd say focus London on getting the Shrines as quickly as possible (until you have all the Shrines), and then go take the last one


BTW if you will be facing Grenadiers, go Mil. Tradition first (cavalry are thier counter and Westpoint will definitely help)... and just give the Redcoats Pinch for Attack [which trhey can get with a Westpoint Barracks...even if no Military City]

Actually with US, you can have most of your Cities Cottage Spammed (focus on commerce both in tile usage and improvements) and Buy all your units through the Military City....that makes each 3 commerce from an undeveloped city capable of getting 2 Hammers of a Heroic West Point Redcoat. (so I'd say get Military Tradition, then drop the slider to 20-30% and start mass buying units through that city)... Galleons, Missionaries and Gold Buildings can get built in the Support Cities [everything else]... and Theaters when they need even more Happiness


VoU is right about the medic (generally you need to make sure one unit has better promotions than it does, and It generally does well with promotions like Medic2+March... shouldn't end up with any beyond that)

If you're going to rely on rush buying I think going for communism might be a good idea due to the size of your empire (and the kremlin). you're not that far off seeing as you have astronomy.

Mmmm. It seems getting to Communism for State Property and the Kremlin is a great idea. Make rush-buying more efficient, and help with distance costs. I'm fine with Domination...it just seems more British anyways

VoU, thanks for the tip about not upgrading a medic unit in the stack. That's the sort of valuable minutiae that these threads can reveal, along with the bigger points about overall strategy.

I think I took a pass on the Workers partly for that reason--that I realized I didn't have a unit capable of ably defending itself on open ground. I have a plethora of Workers right now anyway, and I'm having trouble finding enough for them to do, so it wasn't a high priority for me. This is why you see so many roads through forests, in anticipation of later chops. I would have deleted some Workers to save on maintenance, in fact, but whenever I do that I immediately miss them when I get railroads.

I hear you on the delay. I could have taken Izzy with Maces, most likely. I think it was my desire to get my infrastructure up to snuff. Or maybe my builder tendencies. Like Civ's citizens, I too appreciate a break between wars.

State Property is definitely on my list of goals. Wicklow, with no hills, plains, or forests but a couple of workshops, could definitely benefit. I'm thinking Ironworks will eventually go in Guinness, which already has a couple of watermills and could have several more to accompany its existing mines and some workshops to replace the low-yielding cottages on all that grassland.

I was tempted to change civics back to Theology, but as Krikkitone pointed out, OR makes it much easier to spread religions. I've spread Confucianism almost as much as Buddhism, but I'll soon have the latter's shrine. I should send some Buddhist missionaries overseas to get the intel benefit in the cities to which they spread the word. That makes, as K. says, Military Tradition and West Point a priority (probably after Physics) to let York churn out Level 3 units once again.

The overseas invasion is very appealing. Last time I did that was in the Monty game, and that was with modern forces. It would be interesting to attept it with Industrial-era forces instead.

It's interesting in this game how quite often its the non-Aggressive civs (England, Rome, Russia) that are the best for warring. The UU makes a difference, of course, but so does Financial (for Liz, Vicky, and Cathy).

Sisiutil said:

I'm thinking Ironworks will eventually go in Guinness, which already has a couple of watermills and could have several more to accompany its existing mines and some workshops to replace the low-yielding cottages on all that grassland.

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Reasonable, except that I wonder what you hoping to pair with the National Epic in London.

Madrid might be an interesting oddball choice for Ironworks - pair it with WallStreet, attach a bunch of 2P/5g prophets to the city. Ironworks doesn't go well with water, but it will help you get the boats going faster - that might be a bigger advantage for you than 1 turn tanks.

(Much depends on whether you intend this game to be wrapped up before flight comes - boats are almost irrelevant if you can buy rush an airport on the other continent.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

Reasonable, except that I wonder what you hoping to pair with the National Epic in London.

Madrid might be an interesting oddball choice for Ironworks - pair it with WallStreet, attach a bunch of 2P/5g prophets to the city. Ironworks doesn't go well with water, but it will help you get the boats going faster - that might be a bigger advantage for you than 1 turn tanks.

(Much depends on whether you intend this game to be wrapped up before flight comes - boats are almost irrelevant if you can buy rush an airport on the other continent.

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I usually pair the NE with the Globe Theatre, so that might work. The interesting thing about Great Artists is that they can be useful for either the ultimate builder win (cultural) OR the ultimate warmonger win (domination/conquest). GAs would be handy during conquest on the other continent for restoring order and border popping.

I anticipate going after Qin on the other continent long before flight, so I'll have to give your suggestion regarding Madrid some thought.

What's all this talk about invading the other continent? Is there not enough land on your continent? You should be beelining for Biology.

Nares said:

What's all this talk about invading the other continent? Is there not enough land on your continent? You should be beelining for Biology.

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To what end? I'm leaning towards a domination win. What win are you thinking of?

Sisiutil said:

To what end? I'm leaning towards a domination win. What win are you thinking of?

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I think nares is under the impression there's enough land on your continent to take you over the threshold after you welcome spain into your empire, and he's thinking of bumping up your population like in the last game with hatty.
I wouldnt do that again if there was enough land though, it would be much more satisfying to watch you carry out a conquest victory... raze those heathen hovels from your god given lands

ps. keep up the good work on these threads, ive loved every one so far and i, like many others, am eager to see a cultural victory. if and when you pursue one though it should be under the same settings as all the rest of these games i think (continents etc.) just to keep the continuity alive.
keep them coming sisiutil, thanks to you and all the other input in these threads i'm now trouncing prince level every game and will move up to monarch after i finish my current game.

pps. and come on brazil!!!

Sisiutil said:

To what end? I'm leaning towards a domination win. What win are you thinking of?

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Domination. Bio for the population. As Krikkitone points out, you're already running the civics for rapid border pops.

EDIT: Looking at the map, this might be the most balanced Continents map I've seen; certainly the most balanced of the ALCs. Yeah, you'll need to hit them at some point. I guess there just isn't the land on your continent to get the job done.

Phew good to see that you also have to fight a long time to get the first civs destroyed. In my game right now I am at 1000 AD and am kicking Washington of the face of the planet but I got the feeling that I was terrible slow (got 50% of my continent now). Now seeing that it took you to 1700 to get the continent gives me some breathing space

Nice job anyway. With 5 or 6 religions soon to be yours you still have an incredible shot at a cultural victory. Domination definitely requires an invasion as both land masses are almost equal. Domination is apparantly the best way to go, but also a bit the most boring (trying to temp Sisiutil to go for cultural)

If you're going to be uncultured why not become barbaric and annihiliate other continent for conquest victory;saves all this mucking about with farms. Redcoats and cannons should do most of the biz. OTOH Peter is one tech away from cossack. Maybe beeline to industrialisation, go for Qin and Bis first and finish cossacks off with tanks and cityraider infantry.

It sounds like Civ IV is now a solved puzzle.

If you are strong enough to get a culture victory, you are strong enough to get a domination victory, and the domination victory will be quick and risk free, while the culture victory will be long and drawn out and risky if one other civ attacks you while a second one builds to a space victory. If you go culture, if you are not strong enough to basically conquer the rest of the world anyway, then there will be at least one other civ that will get strong enough to effectively attack you while you are building up your culture. And the odds are high that at some point this civ WILL attack you.

And this is at the prince level. People at the higher levels have been saying as emphatically as possible that Civ IV is a MILITARY game only. On the prince level you have substantially demonstrated to a tee exactly what they have been saying all along. According to people at higher levels this reliance on only military solutions (building up infrastructure only when needed to support the military) becomes ... well its the ony way to win. A puzzle that has now been solved.

Thank you for cutting to the core of of what Civ IV is all about. Its not an accident that all your wins are domination. Its the ONLY solution to Civ IV at the higher levels (other than getting essentially a domination win, leaving the remaining civs with a few cities, and refraining from finishing them off and getting an alternate victory).

I would respectfully disagree with Glokkonn at prince level anyway. A key feature of ALC series is that its been played on continents; up to now Sisiutil has started on a largish continent and yes by the time the continent has been secured Sisutil has been well on the way to domination. On a different map he may secure a landmass that's big enough for culture or diplomacy but not big enough to be heading towards domination. Another feature is that Sisiutil has been prioritising getting a continent to himself rather than relying on diplomacy and intimidation to keep his civ safe. Out of four games so far its been two spaceship, two domination.