ALC Game #6: France/Louis

This game might be a good one to move the warrior then post a new screenshot in the half turn to solicit additional feedback. It seems like there are a lot of conflicting opinions, and maybe the new information revealed by the warrior will clear things up.
 
Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
This game might be a good one to move the warrior then post a new screenshot in the half turn to solicit additional feedback. It seems like there are a lot of conflicting opinions, and maybe the new information revealed by the warrior will clear things up.

Also might be worth it to move the Settler 1S. That's the visibly best location, even if it does pick up a Desert and a Desert Hill tile, which is the worst case scenario. Paris can be founded on the same turn if you decide to move back to the original starting tile.
 
Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
This game might be a good one to move the warrior then post a new screenshot in the half turn to solicit additional feedback. It seems like there are a lot of conflicting opinions, and maybe the new information revealed by the warrior will clear things up.

Good idea.

I'm for settling in place unless the warrior reveals something super interesting.
 
Nares said:
What resource indicator are you referring to?

Sorry, I did some research and couldn't verify. I saw a couple of tiles with little tan things in other games that popped resources like horses so I had the assumption that they were resource indicators before you actually researched the tech(you only see the tan "sesame seed" if you are zoomed close enough like the screenshot). I couldn't find a post about whether it was actually the case. I have removed the reference.
 
Would it be possible to get a brief summary follow the victory in these games?

Something along the lines of order that the techs are researched, wonders built, cities conquered and the date the victory condition was reached would be helpful to newcomers. Shifting through page after page is tough.
 
Murky said:
Would it be possible to get a brief summary follow the victory in these games?

Something along the lines of order that the techs are researched, wonders built, cities conquered and the date the victory condition was reached would be helpful to newcomers. Shifting through page after page is tough.

Just download the save and check the event log. It would require a substantial amount of notes to keep track of that information in some readily presentable format. Alternatively, it would require substantial sifting through integrated notes (aka the event log...). I'm sure at some point, and correct me if I'm wrong Sisiutil, the ALC would become more of a chore than an enjoyable game.
 
Nares said:
Just download the save and check the event log. It would require a substantial amount of notes to keep track of that information in some readily presentable format. Alternatively, it would require substantial sifting through integrated notes (aka the event log...). I'm sure at some point, and correct me if I'm wrong Sisiutil, the ALC would become more of a chore than an enjoyable game.

Ok, noob question. How do you check the event log?
 
Murky said:
Ok, noob question. How do you check the event log?

You can check it by hitting ctrl-tab.
 
Murky said:
Ok, noob question. How do you check the event log?

Oval button, top left below cash on hand, above research percent setting... looks like a book and pencil. (I was going to say look in manual but my manual is buried in my attic already, so I won't assume that it's readily available to you.)

edit - ctrl tab sounds easier.
 
Nares said:
Just download the save and check the event log. It would require a substantial amount of notes to keep track of that information in some readily presentable format. Alternatively, it would require substantial sifting through integrated notes (aka the event log...). I'm sure at some point, and correct me if I'm wrong Sisiutil, the ALC would become more of a chore than an enjoyable game.
Definitely.

Along those lines, I'm a little more inclined, this time, to get on with things and play a few turns rather than just moving the Warrior. I think everyone has contributed a number of good ideas regarding the initial city site and it's time to press on.

Nares, a question regarding your earlier post regarding the initial build/research path: I'm interested it trying it out because it's not what I usually do. I noticed one thing that bothered me, though: it would leave me one city-defending Warrior short, unless you want me to pull my initial exploring Warrior back to protect one of the first two cities?
 
Undefended cities is unlikely to be a problem at the start;too early for barbs, animals wont cross borders, highly unlikely that AI will start a war against you that early; so its actually fairly low risk.
The only time its dodgy is when your settler moves outside borders to found second city.
 
Sisiutil said:
Nares, a question regarding your earlier post regarding the initial build/research path: I'm interested it trying it out because it's not what I usually do. I noticed one thing that bothered me, though: it would leave me one city-defending Warrior short, unless you want me to pull my initial exploring Warrior back to protect one of the first two cities?

Well, the initial Warrior can very easily move back in time to escort the Settler. Given the extreme amount of food available, you may even consider growing to pop 4 before starting on the Settler.

Most of the heavy exploration can be done with the Scout, though I think the Warrior can cover a significant portion of the local city sites before the Settler completes. You're up in the north near the coast. This limits drastically the area you need to explore, and the area you can settle in.

There's really no use to have the extra Warrior wandering. I know you like to explore the continent relatively thoroughly, but you can as easily do that with a Chariot or Scout via Open Borders, or even via Paper later on.

I strongly suggest the 1S move at the very least. From there you may even want to consider an additional move. There's an additional Plains Hill at the edge of the fog that you would pick up by moving 1S, 1SE on the riverside Grassland Hill. Depending on what shows up in the tiles a little bit to the south, it may be worth settling there instead of 1S.

As strong as the case is for a resource or two to pop in the current fat cross, I think it's really the only worthwhile choice to move at least 1S. At best,there are Horses and Copper in the fat cross. I highly doubt both will be there. The next best scenario is that Horses and Iron are there. Again, I doubt that. The final scenario is that one of the early military resources is there, and a late game resource is there. However, in this final case, the benefit of the late game resource is so delayed as to be almost inconsequential.

The two extra Grassland Hills are already a 6hpt increase over the current site. If that is a Desert Hill to the SW, then you're looking at a net 5hpt increase. With all that food, there's no question your only limit to the site is the amount of production you have access to.

The two alternative analyses I can see are that the current site makes for a better GP farm or a better commerce (science) site. I personally think that your capital should be one of your more powerful production sites. There's certainly the Hills there to do it, if you move. If you don't, you're locked into a early game whip site (there's no visible Happiness resources, and the only ones you can hope for are Gold and Silver; Gems are going to be far to the south).

With regards to placing a second city to the south or southeast, that depends on what tiles are revealed. Given that it's the dry band, I think it's relatively unlikely that you're going to find a quality city site there. It's better to have the one excellent city site that you know you can settle versus the two potential moderate sites that you might be able to squeeze in there.
 
I stand behind settling in place. I don't think you're losing anything of consequence in the north, and that puts your capital in a corner where they have to invade from sea or plow through your territory to get to your capital. I think you have the security, and I like the Colossus idea. Getting the extra trade from seas is nice--and I think that you'll have a lot of coast line to explore...
 
Round 1: to 2440 BC

I decided to play through to a point where I have some important decisions to make, and just enough information to make them. Specifically, city locations--assuming, of course, that the AI doesn't beat me to them.

First off, I sent the Warrior SE and saw nothing of great interest (i.e. no other resources) from the hill. The Settler went SW to the corn tile, revealing the desert tile to be nothing more than that. I then sent the Settler east into the forest, and settled exactly 1 tile south of the starting position on the following turn, as several of you recommended:

ALCLouis2440BC01.jpg


In the end, it was Nares' point about the additional hammers that won me over. I'm Industrious and I wanna build wonders, dammit.

Nares will also be gratified to know that I followed his recommended build and tech order, at least at first. I started building a Worker while I researched Hunting and then Animal Husbandry. The timing was perfect: AH finished on the very turn the Worker was able to start work on the sheep tile.

My Warrior did some exploring and I quickly encountered my first neighbour:

ALCLouis2440BC02.jpg


Well, I always prefer being on the same continent with Huayna. So I can kill him before he becomes a problem. Sorry, but I never get along with this guy. He's trouble. But as you'll see, I may have my hands quite full in that regard.

I haven't had a lot of luck with goody huts. I've only found one, and popped it for some early research funds:

ALCLouis2440BC03.jpg


It was, however, very gratifying to beat that Quechua to it. Loser. :smug:

And I soon encountered another Civ, this one to my southwest:

ALCLouis2440BC04.jpg


Great. Another Civ charm school graduate. Unless Toku and I somehow end up sharing the same religion, he'll follow his usual pattern: obstinate, cranky, and then dangerous.

I finished my Scout and after Animal Husbandry was done, went on the Mining -> Bronze Working tech path. The Warrior was wandering around in the southwest, so the Scout went southeast. That's where I met my third friendly neighbourhood psychopath:

ALCLouis2440BC05.jpg


So here I was prepared to be all diplomatic this game, and what do I get? Three of my worst enemies and favourite targets. Isabella has already founded a religion (Hinduism), and Huayna will probably follow suit. That means they'll have holy cities--in Izzy's case, also her capital--which are, of course, prime targets.

Of course, any early war ambitions depend very much on one thing...

ALCLouis2440BC06.jpg


...and, of course, the whereabouts of copper.

Well, guess what:

ALCLouis2440BC08.jpg


And that, if you check the map as revealed thus far, is the only souce of the stuff I've found:

ALCLouis2440BC07.jpg


So let's see... Paris has 148/500 culture before the next border pop, and is generating 4 culture per turn, so I could claim the copper in... 88 turns.


...


Yeah, right. With the neighbours I have, I'll be DEAD by then.

Here's the thing that we really need to discuss, though: cities. My wandering Warrior is heading back north to protect Workers and Settlers, my second one is nearly complete in Paris, and he'll be followed by my first Settler. I have some general city sites picked out.

First of all, to the southwest, near Japan:

ALCLouis2440BC09.jpg


That forested grassland tile 2 west of the gold seems like the best choice. It misses the fish but claims the gold and the pigs. It's not possible to get the fish and the gold in the same fat cross anyway, and since there's plenty of grassland, 2 fresh water sources, and another food resource, I'd rather have the gold for my early economy.

Next, due south:

ALCLouis2440BC10.jpg


I'm thinking of both the marble and the ivory, but I have to send my Scout over there (sorry, the Warrior is needed in the north) to lift the fog some more. I wouldn't be surprised to get beaten to this area, especially since I'd have to push very far south to avoid those useless desert tiles.

And to the southeast:

ALCLouis2440BC11.jpg


Yes, horse city. I'm thinking of the plains tile 1 east of the lake. It would snag not only the horses, but also the cow and the irrigated wheat tiles, plus it would have a fresh water bonus. If it wasn't for the cow and wheat, this area would suck for food, especially with 1 peak, 2 desert, and 3 lakes that won't produce a surplus. It misses the fish tile, but again, I can't have that and the horses.

Of course, if anyone has better suggestions for city sites, I'm all ears. That long strip of desert down the middle of the map--with no floodplains like we were all hoping--makes it difficult, though. In some ways this is almost as challenging a start as the Mao game's map.

And to top things off, the copper is in an unfortunate location. As I noted above, it's going to take too long for Paris' borders to encompass it. Even if I raise the capital's culture, that's still too long to wait compared to building a settler and marching him over there. So I may have no choice but to build a crappy little city on the east coast just to make copper available.

OR...

The problem with Crappy Coppertown is I really want to expand southwards lickety-split, given the dearth of good sites. I want to claim those sites I mentioned above, and their resources, before the AI gets there. Building Crappy Coppertown would divert me from that.

Now I think there's a very good chance that if I can claim all those sites, and those French borders expand in that lovely way that they do, then I'll probably have iron within my borders. So what I could do is focus on expansion and land-grabbing at first, then switch research from Pottery to Iron Working. If I have no Iron, fine, Crappy Coppertown it is. But if I do have it, which I think is likely, then I have a metal and a plan, and it ain't being Monsieur Nice Guy. (Please imagine my pronouncing "Nice" and "Guy" in the French manner, there.)

Okay, look, I know we talked about diplomacy, but I'm clearly not going to get along with everyone. War is unavoidable with this nut cluster around me. I can build maybe the three additional cities I've described, if I hurry and I'm lucky, before the AI civs hem me in and start getting cranky. So let's talk friends and enemies.

As in the Vicky game, I think it makes sense to try to get one of their religions to spread to my cities, then adopt it as my state religion. That should keep either Huayna or Isabella happy with me for a good long while. There aren't many good long rivers so far, so that means Fishing and Sailing will become important for early trade routes along the coast. Well, I was planning on pursuing Optics for contact with the other continent and its civs earlier in this game, so that fits.

Beyond that, it's tough to say just yet. Much will depend on whether Huayna founds a religion, and whether his or Isabella's (maybe both) spread to my cities, and to Tokugawa's. I may delay the SR long enough to see if I can get both Izzy's and Huayna's faiths, see which way Toku jumps, then commit.

On this map and with these neighbours, though, I think religion and war are going to play a much bigger role than we anticipated in the pre-game discussion.
 
Sisiutil said:
In the end, it was Nares' point about the additional hammers that won me over. I'm Industrious and I wanna build wonders, dammit.

Heh, if you check the spoiler I posted on page 2, it would reveal that the best site to settle was 1S, 1SE of the starting position. You end up picking up two more Hills at the cost of one, and exchange the Desert tile for another Desert tile, as well as some Grassland/Coast tiles for Plains, but the latter two exchanges are irrelevant for the first, oh, 200-300 turns of the game. It also ends up perfectly placed to grab the Copper that otherwise isn't worth placing a second city to grab.

The site was actually a blue circle suggestion, though it wouldn't appear as a blue circle until your second turn (after the 1S move). However, the little bit of Plains Hill you could see in the opening screenshot was all the non-spoiler hint I could give in this regards, and the surrounding tiles didn't help your scouting efforts, nor my attempts at suggesting as to why 1S, 1SE was a stronger move.

Sisiutil said:
Nares will also be gratified to know that I followed his recommended build and tech order, at least at first. I started building a Worker while I researched Hunting and then Animal Husbandry. The timing was perfect: AH finished on the very turn the Worker was able to start work on the sheep tile.

Funny how that worked out perfectly. With only the 1S move, you get there just as you finish AH. With the 1S, 1SE move, you can partial build a road on the Sheep during the turn prior to completing AH.

Sisiutil said:
Great. Another Civ charm school graduate. Unless Toku and I somehow end up sharing the same religion, he'll follow his usual pattern: obstinate, cranky, and then dangerous.

:lol:

You've got some real winners on your continent. It's possible to keep the peace with one of them, but two or more is risky business.

Sisiutil said:
So let's see... Paris has 148/500 culture before the next border pop, and is generating 4 culture per turn, so I could claim the copper in... 88 turns.

It's not as bad as it looks. It just means you need to consider a early wonder (Stonehenge or The Oracle), or throw in a very early Obelisk, or a early Library. The Oracle is probably the best bet. In the meantime, you have all that room to the south to expand into, so you should have enough to do before then. Just make sure to expand SW towards Toku first and cut him off. Everyone else appears to be south of the Jungle.

Sisiutil said:
First of all, to the southwest, near Japan:

That forested grassland tile 2 west of the gold seems like the best choice. It misses the fish but claims the gold and the pigs. It's not possible to get the fish and the gold in the same fat cross anyway, and since there's plenty of grassland, 2 fresh water sources, and another food resource, I'd rather have the gold for my early economy.

Good first choice. Blocking Toku and grabbing the Gold and Pigs is really the key for this city. Beyond that, it has enough Hills to be either a decent early game production facility or a early-mid game commerce/science site.

Sisiutil said:
Next, due south:

I'm thinking of both the marble and the ivory, but I have to send my Scout over there (sorry, the Warrior is needed in the north) to lift the fog some more. I wouldn't be surprised to get beaten to this area, especially since I'd have to push very far south to avoid those useless desert tiles.

And to the southeast:

Yes, horse city. I'm thinking of the plains tile 1 east of the lake. It would snag not only the horses, but also the cow and the irrigated wheat tiles, plus it would have a fresh water bonus. If it wasn't for the cow and wheat, this area would suck for food, especially with 1 peak, 2 desert, and 3 lakes that won't produce a surplus. It misses the fish tile, but again, I can't have that and the horses.

Good call on the Horse city. I think the Marble/Elephant city is a bit of reach, though it would help to shore up your cultural borders down there. Rapid border expansion means it's unlikely that anyone will settle in the Desert before your borders fill in the gaps between cities.

The other option, and it really only works for the early game, is to build 1W of the Wheat. You can work the Marble, the two Hills, the Horses and the Wheat at pop 5 (the effective cap with Gold but no religion or Forge). From there, you can Farm the Plains. It also has access to two lake tiles, which, with a Lighthouse (you can build a Lighthouse on a lake) means two more +3F tiles, allowing you to work two Plains Cottages (better than one Desert Mine).

Still, I think the Horse city you proposed would make a overall better site. Just keep those Plains Forests around, as you'll want the extra hammers for the site, given the excess food from the Wheat and Cows (+7 net).

This also frees up the Fish to be tied into the Rice further south, which, with all that Grassland, would make a for a good commerce site. There would be a little overlap, but not enough to worry about.

Sisiutil said:
And to top things off, the copper is in an unfortunate location. As I noted above, it's going to take too long for Paris' borders to encompass it. Even if I raise the capital's culture, that's still too long to wait compared to building a settler and marching him over there. So I may have no choice but to build a crappy little city on the east coast just to make copper available.

I said it above, but I'll say it again here. Very early Obelisk, early Library, or a wonder (The Oracle, most likely). You've also got a lot of room to deal with, and you could always research Iron Working to see if any is available in a more ideal location. Golden Pork looks like it's lacking in resources, though it could just have a few late game ones hidden around.

Sisiutil said:
The problem with Crappy Coppertown is I really want to expand southwards lickety-split, given the dearth of good sites. I want to claim those sites I mentioned above, and their resources, before the AI gets there. Building Crappy Coppertown would divert me from that.[?QUOTE]

There's not even a good justification for building this as a fishing village. Better to just suck it up. As I said, you've got room to expand into, and room between you and your neighbors, which means any war is going to be a bit longer than usual.

Sisiutil said:
Okay, look, I know we talked about diplomacy, but I'm clearly not going to get along with everyone. War is unavoidable with this nut cluster around me. I can build maybe the three additional cities I've described, if I hurry and I'm lucky, before the AI civs hem me in and start getting cranky. So let's talk friends and enemies.

No qualms here. You were dealt a bad hand. It's also pretty tough to fight out of a corner, which is what you're in. Given that they're going to grab early religions, it's not impossible that you can get Confuscianism just by normal research. Huayna's usually satisfied with just one, and Izzy's one to focus more towards Theology and Christianity (with Monotheism and Judaism along the way, of course) than to go after Confuscianism.

As a quick aside, with all that distance, you're almost forced into bringing Swordmen along for the show. I don't think just Axes can cut it, especially with the wait on the Copper. So Iron Working is basically a must, and if it's not there, then Catapaults.
 
I'd reckon on gold city first, horse city second. Research IW while settling these then reconsider plans once you know where the iron is (or isn't).
 
I see, to have missed a meeting - what was the point of collecting Hunting? No camps, no metals, Animal Loving was already available. Were you planning to build scouts after your worker finished?

The city I would want to plant is two east of the wheat (grassland cows, fish, irrigated wheat, lots of farmable land), although that does make for difficulties feeding the horses. The other eastern city I would look at is the plains tile on the coast - fish, rice, and lots of grassland - cottages now, farms later if the breaks come in.

If you are hoping to build wonders in Paris, I think you have to go for goldopolis first - commerce is a pain when you are working mines.
 
Hans Lemurson said:
This starting location makes me cry.

It is the Antithesis of the dotmap!!! As it turns out, you were very close to seeing the blue-circle foe the SSE city-location, which I will attest to be a right-good one, getting you the copper at 100:culture:.

Oh well. The Gold-Pork city is your priority. After that, we can talk more of the other locales.

I am extremely torn-up about the horsey-plains site. Setling SE of there would get you a darned good city; 3 lakes with coastal access, and an extra fish to boot. It does however come at the cost of the horses. Do you really need horses? I just hate to see wasted potential in build locations. It's...it's just so hard sometimes. :cry:

Stupid map-generator...
 
Nares said:
While it certainly may be possible to go after the Colossus, I really do not see a pressing need to do so. The Colossus, for a non-Financial leaders, essentially turns all Coastal tiles into Villages in any city with a Lighthouse. However, because it eventually becomes obsolete, you must make a choice between working the land-based Cottages, maturing them to Hamlets and so forth, or working the Coastal tiles. Unfortunatly, The Colossus' lifespan is during what is essentially the best time to mature your Cottages. The benefit of working the Coastal tiles is greater for Financial leaders, and the return to land-based unmatured Cottages is less painful for Finacial leaders.

It has it's place, but I do not think it should be a priority. The best advantage it offers here is to improve any lake tiles (which are considered Coastal by the game). I say that this is the best advantage because lakes, generally being small, will not restrict as severely the number of Cottages you mature during the lifespan of the Colossus.

Okay, thank you very much. This is why I joined the forums - so I can ask n00bish questions. :D

Nares said:
Just download the save and check the event log. It would require a substantial amount of notes to keep track of that information in some readily presentable format. Alternatively, it would require substantial sifting through integrated notes (aka the event log...). I'm sure at some point, and correct me if I'm wrong Sisiutil, the ALC would become more of a chore than an enjoyable game.

I never thought of that! That'll help immensely, thanks. I always wished that I could watch over Sisiutil's shoulder to get greater detail, but this is just as good.


Anyway, to the game.


*wince* Ouch. I've had an early game go bad because I couldn't link up metal quickly. It's a tough choice - waste a good settler for a bad city with metal, or sweat it out until you get iron working. I'll be watching to see how this plays out, because I HATE this problem.

Fortunately, though, you got nearby horses. They'll help take off the pressure off from barbarians (and neighbours) in the meantime. Plus they make better scouts, due to the fact that they can, y'know, actually defend themselves.

*grin* Wouldn't it just suck if the only iron in the area was in the middle of all that desert?
 
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