ALC Game #6: France/Louis

I would claim the copper right after the gold city. I would build it 1e of the copper. There will be a 2 tile overlap with the capital but that should work out ok once you get a lighthouse built.

As a Prince level game, the AI don't have the production bonuses of Monarch or start with archers, so it's a much more do-able game. You could get both Stonehenge and Oracle with industrial and that Marble.

I would kill whoever finds copper first. Don't stop exploring, though, since you are on the east coast of your continent. You want to find out if you are on the larger or the smaller continent. If you decide to kill Toku or Monty early (or both) your natural center would shift to the west or to the south (or both) probably making Isa your closest neighbor in either case.

poor location ??
not that poor.. no need to rush the copper that much... building a useless city is never a good thing.. paris is curently +4culture / turn and need #380 more. with stonehdge it may be fast enough too have time to settle 2 cities, build roads to bring unit to the front and defend the frontier that will not be at war.
since no copper was spotted south, Incas wont probably have any. 2 solutions : rush them while they are weak and contains japanees with the help of creativ trait OR let the incas grow a little, harass the japanees (carefull they might have copper), with luck kyoto might be taken and then take the city the Incas are likely to build on the south positions (having the city and not having loosed time building settlers is always a great deal)

For the moment, I'd cross my fingers and hope to get a religion from Miss BURN THE HEATHENS!!!!! or Mr. Grumpy. They become a lot nicer. Preferably, it comes from Izzie, has she's less of a threat and ultimately the most pliable. Cultivating a relationship with Toku, in my experience, just isn't worth it. He's still cranky, and the only relationship he's interested in is where he calls all the shots.

As for the Copper...yuck. Go ahead and get Stonehenge, but settle the gold-pork first, and power to iron with the insane commerce gold mines give. Or maybe not....after 'Henge, get a settler out for the marble(somehow) and get cracking on the Oracle. Paris will be churning out Prophets, and you'll be Industrious with forges and Marble. Just binge carefully. I know you want to...

It seems everyone agrees on Goldenpig, both in terms of location and priority. That makes the first few moves of the next round easier. And yes, I may chop-rush the Settler.

Everyone was tugging at me regarding Horsecity, though, so I decided to dotmap the two main possibilities:



The key difference is definitely food. The yellow site will have a -11 food deficit by my reckoning once the farm, pasture, and lighthouse are in place. The cyan site will have a -1 deficit once those things and the fishing boats are deployed. Quite a difference, even if the production is lower. I can see why everyone was pushing for this. It does mess up my plans for Fishyriceville, but that was pretty ambitious anyway. I can make up for the lack of production through judicious use of the whip, which I feel a little more confident wielding thanks to the tutorial in the Vicky ALC.

So let's say I forgo the horses (I'll claim them on the 2nd border pop, I think) and build Fishycowgrain City after Goldenpig. I'll have to rush to it, and that means building Settler, Warrior, Settler in Paris before thinking about Stonehenge or the like. I will have no good, early, resource-based defenders available for several turns, so I will likely have to research Archery after Pottery, then go after Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood for Stonehenge and Oracle, and follow that with Iron Working and Writing.

Meanwhile, Goldenpig can build Warrior, Settler while Paris builds wonders and maybe I can claim Marbletusk. Fishycowgrain might help dissuage Huayna from settling in that direction if he has options to his south and/or west. But I kind of doubt it.

By the way, no one's mentioned it, but with no stone in sight and the other challenges I'm facing, I've ruled out the Pyramids.

Sisiutil said:

The key difference is definitely food.

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Cyan is clearly better except for the horses. If you can get horses some other way, then I think this decision is a no-brainer. Even if you can't, I'm not sure horses should be a short term priority. What are you planning to use them for? Chariots? Make axemen instead. Horse archers? Make axemen instead, and don't even bother researching Horseback Riding. Knights and Cavalry? I think you can manage to wait a while before you start worrying about that. Of course, this assumes that you research Iron Working and find iron, but I'm fairly confident that you will do both.

It does mess up my plans for Fishyriceville, but that was pretty ambitious anyway.

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You can make a city with fish and ivory instead (after you kill Huayana, of course). That city is mostly grassland, so it doesn't need the extra food from both resources. The other city does. I think this is a win/win.

So let's say I forgo the horses (I'll claim them on the 2nd border pop, I think)

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I think you won't. You'll get the 3 tiles to the south of the horses, the 1 tile east of them, and the forested plains and 2 mountains north of your city. The horses are in that little corner that will need a 3rd expansion.

By the way, no one's mentioned it, but with no stone in sight and the other challenges I'm facing, I've ruled out the Pyramids.

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Yeah, good. As I mentioned in the pregame thread, even though Industrious seems like a great opportunity to build expensive wonders like the Pyramids, the reality is that Industrious gives you +50% hammers while stone gives you +100%. You can make that up on a cheap wonder like the Oracle by starting early, chopping, better tile management, etc., but on something as expensive as the Pyramids that gives the AI a lot of time to catch up to you.

Sisiutil said:

The yellow site will have a -11 food deficit by my reckoning once the farm, pasture, and lighthouse are in place. The cyan site will have a -1 deficit once those things and the fishing boats are deployed.

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My mistake on the Lighthouse. I think between The Twilight Zone marathon and a lack of sleep over the past few days, I managed to find myself in an actual twilight zone.

The lake counts for coastal trade routes. You would still need to be on the actual coast to build the Lighthouse, though the lake tiles would benefit from the upgrade, as they do from The Colossus.

You can make up some for the loss of food at the Horse city by Farming some tiles off the lake. Later, you can subsitute them for Cottages as Biology comes up.

The Cow/Wheat/Fish city would be purely commerce oriented, I imagine. You can work some of those Plains Forests, but you're only left with one after the move. Still, it would allow you to Cottage all of the Plains there, as well as the Grasslands, for heavy commerce, or you could run it as a specialist center.

Grabbing both Fish/Cow/Wheat and Marble/Ivory/Banana are worthwhile races as they are awesome in relation to the stuff that's available. How to do it is the key and you'll have to plan it out carefully, because the Inca will have to expand either north or west. My guess is that if you take Cowfin Chaff after Goldpork, you'll have to chop out a settler from Goldpork quickly to take Rock Tusk. The Inca probably will head that way first if you take the coastal city of Cowfin Chaff.

If this comes together, you'll have four excellent cities from which to launch your war while hampering their expansion plans. Of course, it will be interesting to see what IW reveals as that may have a bearing on things. Just don't forget to get archery first in case iron doesn't show (that would be the pits).

Twilight Zone marathon? Neat. I really liked that show. Sterling was simply ahead of his time.

If you start researching iron straight away by the time you've got gold city established, built a warrior and another settler you should virtually have researched IW and location of iron will tell you if you need horses or copper urgently and thus determine if you have fish or horse with steak sandwich.

mmmm, horse!

Righty-o, Surf 'n' Turf it likely will be. I didn't think you could build a lighthouse next to a lake, and that makes Horsecity's food sitch even worse.

With the pigs and a chop, I'm hoping to rush a Settler out of Goldenpig to snag that marble. I may even rush another Settler, on the off chance of getting Ricecity, but I think I'll have to fight Huayna for it. Even if he beats me there, I stated in the pre-game thread that it's not a bad idea to have a Settler hanging around.

Like I said, a challenging map. I have copper and horses, but in spots that require sub-optimal cities or a long wait for a border pop. I'm getting nervous about where iron will appear. The way my luck is running, probably at the tip of that tundra peninsula to my north...

Sisiutil said:

Righty-o, Surf 'n' Turf it likely will be. I didn't think you could build a lighthouse next to a lake, and that makes Horsecity's food sitch even worse.

With the pigs and a chop, I'm hoping to rush a Settler out of Goldenpig to snag that marble. I may even rush another Settler, on the off chance of getting Ricecity, but I think I'll have to fight Huayna for it. Even if he beats me there, I stated in the pre-game thread that it's not a bad idea to have a Settler hanging around.

Like I said, a challenging map. I have copper and horses, but in spots that require sub-optimal cities or a long wait for a border pop. I'm getting nervous about where iron will appear. The way my luck is running, probably at the tip of that tundra peninsula to my north...

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Sadly, that would be better than the horses or the copper. It looks like there's enough room up there for a good fishing village that doesn't have overlap with your capital. And, if you're truly blessed, there might be some crabs or something...

In the past, we've discussed using chariots with the Sentry promotion as fog busters. I commented that I wasn't sure Sentry was doing anything. I just did some World Builder experiments to figure out exactly how Sentry works.

Under normal circumstances, an unpromoted unit can see 1 tile in any direction. If it's on a hill, that gets increased to 2 tiles unless the view is blocked by a hill or forest.

With the Sentry promotion, you can see 2 tiles in any direction, regardless of forests and hills. You can never see 3 tiles away, regardless of what terrain the unit is on and what terrain is in the adjacent tiles. Even a unit perched on a hill and surrounded by nothing but flatlands sees only the same 2 tile distance that it saw without the promotion.

The conlusion, therefore, is that if your fog buster is able to sit on a hill and its view isn't significantly obscured by adjacent hills or forests, then the Sentry promotion doesn't help you. If the best location for the fog buster is on flatlands or if there are lots of hills and forests around it, then Sentry might give you an extra tile of visibility.

Your Food-calculations for the 2 city-sites are actually a bit off.

Yellow with Wheat-Farm + Pasture:
-City-Center: +2F
-Irrigated wheat-farm: +3F (it's next to a lake)
-Pastured Cattle: +2F
-10 plains: -10F
Net: -3F, but with the possibility of 5 additional farms.

Cyan with Wheat-Farm + Pasture:
-City-Center: +2F
-Irrigated wheat-farm: +3F
-Pastured Cattle: +2F
-5 plains, 1 jungle, 2 coast: -8F
Net: -1F, but with possibility of 6 additional farms, and 1 cleared jungle.
With Fishing Boat: +3 Food.
With Lighthouse: +6 Food.

Cyan, even with the same developments as Yellow gives you superior food production due to the southern grasslands. When Cyan has it's sea-features up and running, it catapults far ahead in food capacity. The lighthouse turns every lake into an oasis.

The rice could possibly be gotten later by building a city to its SW.

Is this number 5 or 6?

This is ALC # 6, Chunky. There are links to the earlier ones in my sig.

Thanks, Hans. I included -2 each for the peak and desert in my calculations for both cities. Either way, cyan obviously gets more food and is a better long-term site than yellow.

Doc, that was exactly my experince with the Flanking/Sentry chariots in the Vicky game. I had all flat snow tiles and peaks, so they were a better choice than Guerilla-promoted Archers for fog-busting. Good to keep in mind.

I love how we all keep learning little things like that through these games! That's why I keep doing them!

Next round will be posted in a couple of hours. I'm off to found Goldenpig...

It says Number 5 on your first post.

Sorry, I'm a perfectionist. >_>;

Chunky said:

It says Number 5 on your first post.

Sorry, I'm a perfectionist. >_>;

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Me too. Fixed. Good catch.

Round 2: to 900 BC

So to start things off, I changed research. Not from Pottery to Iron Working, but to...



Just me being paranoid. After it finished, I switched back to Pottery.

With two mines and two top-notch food sources, Paris had no problem producing two Settlers in less than 10 turns for each, so it made no sense to do any chopping. Frankly, I just finished a non-ALC game on the weekend as Hatty where I had serious health issues, so it has made me a little more leery of chopping when I'm not an expansive civ. I'd rather save the chops for when they're really needed.

The first Settler went southeast, as advised, to Goldenpig...er, Orleans.



As you can see, my timing remained near-perfect, with a road through the gold in place and the Worker set to begin putting a pasture on the pigs immediately. Nares' suggestion regarding the quick build of two workers is paying off. Of course, a lot of that is helped by starting with Agriculture and having wheat and sheep near the start.

Come to think of it, with sheep, wheat, cows, and pigs, not to mention several sites beside fresh water lakes, I probably won't have too many health issues. Oh well, I still haven't done any chopping!

An Archer and Paris' next Settler finished and went southeast, to the site everyone was rooting for:



The appearance of barb Warriors has made me feel quite satisfied with the Hunting/Archery research.

Speaking of research, yes, once Pottery finished I went on the religious path--not to found religions (the early three are gone), but for Stonehenge and the Oracle. Along the way, I picked this up:



I chose Polytheism instead of Meditation because it was only one turn extra, it's a pre-requisite for Literature (I hope to build the Great Library later on), and I wouldn't mind taking a run at the Parthenon.

My Scout continued exploring, ducking and weaving around animals and barb warriors, swinging like a pendulum from east to west and back again, moving further south as he went. And I met another civ, if you can believe it:



Finally, someone I can and usually do get along with! Cyrus is further south of me, in between Huayna to his east and Isabella to his west.

Five civs on one continent, and it appears that no one is really expanding in my direction just yet. This confirms my suspicion that my rock is BIG. This leaves only two civs on the other continent. Yes, I double-checked to make sure I didn't pick a pangaea map.

Interesting.

And I started indulging my wonder addiction, as some of you suggested:



It took Paris, with those mines and four population, less than ten turns to build Stonehenge, and without one chop! Ya gotta love that industrial trait.

As the 'henge neared completion, I looked at the map and realized how useful it will be. As we discussed, it will speed the expansion of Paris' borders to gain access to the copper much sooner. It will also provide me with a Great Prophet. But best of all, it's going to assist with all the cities' border expansion. Normally that's not a big concern with a Creative civ. But given how spaced out the map requires my cities to be, the faster those spaces get filled in, the better.

Meanwhile, you'll notice that I diverted from the civilian/religious techs once I had Priesthood. A few turns later...



So, do I have iron in a more convenient spot than copper? Read on...

After Stonehenge finished I was able to immediately begin work on the Oracle. Once I built a mine on Paris' third grassland hill, it took only 10 turns to complete. No chops. I love being Industrial!



As we discussed in the pre-game thread, I selected Metal Casting as my free tech. I can now start guilding those cheap forges, and since I have gold, each one is like a combination production/happiness building.

You might also notice that I managed to get my fourth city, Rheims, built to claim the marble (not needed for the Oracle, but will help with the GL), ivory, spices, and bananas. You may also notice that nasty barb warrior nearby. I ducked the Worker into Rheims. The Archer had already earned City Garrison I (no barracks yet) thanks to two foolhardy barb Warriors he met on the way to the city site. So needless to say, this barb Warrior is now pushin' up the daisies with his buddies. For those of you who play with barbs off, these sorts of easy promotions are what you're missing out on.

After building four of the cities I wanted, I got all hyped to build a fifth, but Huayna beat me to the site we had in mind:



Well, three out of four ain't bad. And since it looks like that Incan city is exactly where I would have put mine, and now has iron to boot, it just became a prime target.

Oh yes...speaking of iron. Well, I guess I could play border tug-o-war with Huayna over that tile. But why worry about it when I have iron in a much more convenient location, two tiles north of my capital:



BWAHAHA!! Now I'll have Iron, and as you can see, shortly after it's hooked up, I'll have copper too. Excellent.

Now check out the build orders in Paris. I put the city into stagnation while the Oracle was being built by taking a citizen off one of the forest tiles and making him a specialist; I didn't want the building of that wonder slowed. Now I'm growing the city, and I love the timing. The Archer will complete on the next turn, and I'll send the Warrior north to check out that area. (Since I haven't seen any barbs coming from that direction, I don't think there's much up there.) Then the Worker gets built for one turn. Then the city grows past its happiness limit. So I'll whip the worker, whose first task will be to hook up the iron, and then the forge gets built. Then it's barracks, Axes, and Swords, baby. Someone is gonna DIE.

Here's a look at the map at 900 BC:



If you look carefully, there is a long, long river running from the northwest to the south, connecting Spain and Japan, so I fully expect Hinduism to spread to Tokugawa. If it spreads to me as well, somehow, that could mean targeting Huayna. Strangely, it appears as though Hinduism is the only religion on our continent thus far. It looks like Judaism and Buddhism went to the other continent.

As you can see, I'm building forges everywhere. No sense waiting, or wasting hammers. They'll make all subsequent builds cheaper, of course. My own preference is to get militaristic--build barracks and then Axes and Swords after this. I'll have to give some thought to granaries before too long. They'll help recover population after whipping, which I'd like to start doing a bit of.

Now, I am very happy with this round. I built three cities in their preferred locations. I've completed two important early wonders. I will soon have access to two strategic metals. After this, though, there are even more important decisions to make.

Research, for example. I felt it was high time to get Writing. After that, what should I go after? I'm inclined to leave the other early techs (Fishing, Sailing, Meditation, Masonry, Monotheism, Horseback Riding) and get them through trading. So is Alphabet next? Or should I go after Code of Laws? I'm leaning towards the former. I have 4 cities and research is at 70%, so I don't see a burning need for courthouses just yet. Both will take about 20 turns.

Now what about the use of the Great Prophet, who will appear in about 18 turns? Obviously I'd prefer to pop some techs. Given what I've researched so far, what will I get? IIRC, without Masonry, I'll get Meditation. Maybe I should research that next, then Alphabet. If I do that, I believe the GP will give me Code of Laws. Then if I research Masonry (which I don't want to delay too long because of the marble for the GL and Construction for Catapults and War Elephants) and trade for or research Monotheism, the next GP would give me Theology, right? Then Civil Service after that?

It also occurred to me that since Isabella grabbed Hinduism, she may be attempting to build the Parthenon. So I may have to start on that soon. The problem is, if I build it in the obvious place--production powerhouse Paris--the Great Artist points will dilute the Great Prophet points. Hmmm...

And, of course, the big question is who to attack. I think it's either Huayna or Tokugawa, and the latter is the one pressing against my borders. He's going to be ticked at the location of Rheims; he obviously placed Tokyo to try to grab those two Calendar resources that I have now claimed. I don't have a close borders demerit from him yet, but it's only a matter of time. He's built at least one city or more in the west, away from everyone else. That makes it a very attractive area to take over...

Also, taking on Huayna is going to be complicated by the fact that Cyrus is practically building right alongside him! I could maybe take the Incan rice city and Cuzco, but any others I think I'd have to raze or gift to Persia. I'm tempted to rush a Settler to the southwest of Rheims, because I just know Cyrus will head in that direction next, but I think that might be over-extending myself.

Anyway, here's the save, and I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.

If you aren't making the crappy Copper City, then you have bigger balls than I have. I'd have build the crappy city then take the other areas by Axe.

I did play out my first game as Loius for this challenge. I got a Cultural win in 1956 (the second and third city hit legendary in the same turn). 1 for 1 with Louis this time. I'll likely get to start another one tomorrow...