ALC Game #6: France/Louis

aelf said:
That's not entirely true, I think. In this case Huayna is on good terms with Cyrus, so he can be bribed to attack you. If so, he might concentrate his attack on the narrow route. You may be able to defend the city, but if he is present in force, you can't send reinforcements to your invasion force easily. In fact, Huayna only needs to pillage a few roads to make things difficult for you.

However, maybe on Prince or lower you would be significantly stronger than the AI so Huayna might not want to attack you or might ask for too high a price to do so. I believe on higher levels you might be in a sticky situation if you assume it's safe.
Thats more of a function of HC attacking you rather than the narrowing of your land. The AI does not recognize choke points in and of themselves and if you're "cut off" temporarily it doesn't impair your fighting capability.

I think your point that HC is closer and should be first is valid. I don't think a narrow supply line is a good way to phrase it.
 
Round 5: to 1520 AD

As the round started, I converted to Judaism to improve relations with Huayna and Cyrus. Edo was still in revolt, but luckily, Judaism spread on its own to Osaka. I switched civics to Organized Religion and started spreading Judaism to all my cities.

I was getting worried about Edo, though. It was facing pressure from east and west thanks to two Persian cities. Persian borders quickly claimed Edo's iron mine and rice farm and I was getting worried about its gold mine. That's the pain of being up against a Creative civ, even if you're a Creative civ yourself. It's all about who's been there first and longest.

Right around this time, Lyon, my GP farm with National Epic now in place, went against the odds, took the meagre NE points towards a GA, and spat out a Great Artist. At first I was, like, "Oh, a Great Artist. So what. Maybe I'll save him for a Golden Age..."

Then I glanced at Edo again and smacked my forehead.

ALCLouis1520AD01.jpg


One great work later and the iron and rice (and several other tiles) were mine again, and the gold mine is safe. More or less...

I also noticed that the territory north of Edo had a big yawning gap in it. Rather than have the AI settle there, I rushed a Settler out and claimed it for myself.

ALCLouis1520AD02.jpg


As I cleared the jungle, I began to realize that Tours will likely be my Ironworks city, thanks to all those river tiles that can have watermills, not to mention the hills, grassland for workshops, and the horsies. I built cottages at first, but I'm going to replace them with farms, max out the city's population, and then put the production improvements in place.

And shortly after that, my bee-line came through:

ALCLouis1520AD03.jpg


I started building a few Musketeers and wondered how I'd be using them. Shortly, I'd have my answer.

Huayna came by for a visit and is feeling positively chummy now that we share a religion. He offered me an appealing tech trade:

ALCLouis1520AD04.jpg


A little in his favour, perhaps, but I was in a mood to start exploring, and this put me close to Optics and Caravels. Also, my cities were getting large enough so that the health limit was now in sight, so harbours will also help.

Shortly after this, however, I had proof that not all of my neighbours is happy with me.

ALCLouis1520AD05.jpg


Well, since I was planning on this anyway, having Isabella declare war was fine by me. I'd moved my units into Edo and had built a few Musketeers and Macemen in preparation. I switched civics to Theocracy since Judaism was now in all my cities.

Isabella went after Edo first, predictably. I managed to escape relatively unscathed, losing only a few Catapults that caused collateral damage to her meagre stacks. They were more of a pillaging threat than a city-taking one, but I managed to keep both the iron and gold mine working.

Then Huayna came by again. He and Cyrus both refused to join in the fighting, but neither seems to mind my pounding on Isabella much. Since Isabella declared war on me, I've avoided the -1 diplomatic demerit, and sharing our faith has earned me a +6 from him. So he offered me another appealing tech trade:

ALCLouis1520AD06.jpg


Normally I don't trade Paper until after I discover Liberalism, but as you can see, I pretty much had that race in the bag. And having Optics gave me more choices for the Liberalism free tech.

Meanwhile, having thwarted Isabella's feeble attacks on Edo, I sent my stack out to the most tempting target--the nearby holy city of Judaism, Seville.

ALCLouis1520AD07.jpg


Capturing it was delightful in so many ways. Not only will it be a great cash cow (probably my Wall Street city), it also showed me the units in practically ALL of my neighbours' cities!

And I'm also getting the most out of the Musketeers; you can see three of them (of course) in that shot, heading further south. They're top-notch pillagers. I've been plundering Izzy's happiness resoures and metals practically unscathed. That trio all have Combat I, and then have a mix of Guerilla I, Medic I, and Combat II. So they'll be hard to take out. I had another stack of two of them going down Isabella's west coast, but they got turfed after they pillaged a vineyard right next to Cordoba. So Hans' warning back in the Hatty game holds true: try to avoid pillaging any tile adjacent to a city. My bad.

A couple of turns later, I won the Liberalism race:

ALCLouis1520AD08.jpg


Tough choice, but since I was close to reaching the other continent with one of three Caravels, I went for Astronomy. That would allow cross-continental trading, and any GPT I can get will help. Furthermore, I wanted to build Observatories, especially in Lyon, which would let me run two more science specialists.

I made a mistake after this, got wonder-greedy (I still have that GE sitting in Paris), and went after Nationalism. When Isabella started coming at Edo and Seville with tons of pillaging Horse Archers, and my Spearmen eventually kicked the big brass bucket, I realized that I needed Pikemen. Especially since she probably isn't far away from Guilds and Conquistadors. So I abandoned Nationalism and started researching Engineering.

Shortly after I made that course correction, I found the other continent. Someone earlier guessed Hatshepsut was there, and they win a prize:

ALCLouis1520AD09.jpg


Yes, we did the mother of all tech trades. You can't see it on that screenshot, but I had her throw in her world map. Thanks to it, one of my Caravels only had to travel a few more tiles, and I won the circumnavigation bonus. Hatty and I also hammered out some trade agreements and an Open Borders treaty. She's all smiles now whenever she sees me.

I also found out where and who the other civ was. He wasn't as amenable as Hatty, mainly because I found her first and he really has it in for the poor girl. Even so, he didn't pass up on giving me a few GPT for one of my spare resources. No moss growing on that boy.

ALCLouis1520AD10.jpg


Genghis and Hatty are at war, and he's already taken Heliopolis. I was thinking of gifting her some Iron (which she doesn't have) to even things out, but though better of it. If she dies, some of the techs I gave her will likely die with her. On the other hand, I could probably use an ally somewhere. I'm dithering. Help me out, gang.

Meanwhile, Izzy's pillagers were getting downright annoying, and I was out of nearby Spearmen. I did manage to raze one of her smaller cities, but had to rush the stack back to Seville to protect it. As much as I would have liked to take her out in one blow, I needed a breather to build reinforcements, including finishing Engineering and Pikemen. So I went to her, hat in hand, and asked for a time-out:

ALCLouis1520AD11.jpg


I finished Engineering on the next turn, and thanks to it, Chemistry was available! Grenadiers! They're a perfectly serviceable unit, especially if you get them reasonably early, which I will. And then I can grab Steel for Cannon! Goody goody gum drops.

Here, as well, is a look at the other continent.

ALCLouis1520AD12.jpg


It's much smaller than mine, so I could very likely have a domination win just by claiming my own land mass. That's what I've decided to aim for.

So now the question is how to achieve it. I could shortly resume the war against Isabella and finish what I started. However, Cyrus has inconveniently converted to Christianity, so there's some danger there, though not much, I think--Cyrus is usually more of a builder than a warmonger unless he sees a clear advantage, and he and I are almost a match in power.

But Cyrus is only going to become harder and harder to take on. I have one Hindu city now, Seville, so I could spread it and convert to make Isabella happy with me. That would tick off Huayna, though, and make him a threat. Of course, I could also switch civics to Free Religion, which would improve relations with everyone, but then I'd have to switch to Vassalage to keep some bonus XPs.

I also have not built or captured enough Workers in this game. I've been able to stay on top of things by carefully only improving tiles that can be worked, but I haven't had much of a cushion. I'm thinking of building the Hagia Sophia so my Workers can improve tiles faster. I'm reluctant to use the GE for it, but Huayna may have a head start on it.

So how should I play this out? I want a domination win and have three opponents in my way, all capable of reaching my cities and causing damage. I face not only a military challenge, but a diplomatic one. Any advice is, as usual, very much appreciated.
 
Well if you Really want one Continent Domination Win, Given the current Circumstances I'd say

1. use the GE for HS
2. Take Spain
3. Help Hatty (to slow the Mongol consolidation.. so that you don't have to worry about them getting Astronomy and bugging you)
4. Go for Chemistry, then Military Tradition (getting Taj in the meantime), Then Steel, then Rifling and Assembly Line
5. Once you have a good Grenadier/Musketeer army, then hit the Persians (Grenadiers for City Attack Muskets for Pillaging)

Finally finish off the Incans at your Leisure (they should be the only one you really need to court). (You will probably never need to get Scientific method... just keep using Prophets for Shrines and spread those religions)
 
Krikkitone said:
Well if you Really want one Continent Domination Win, Given the current Circumstances I'd say

1. use the GE for HS
2. Take Spain
3. Help Hatty (to slow the Mongol consolidation.. so that you don't have to worry about them getting Astronomy and bugging you)
4. Go for Chemistry, then Military Tradition (getting Taj in the meantime), Then Steel, then Rifling and Assembly Line
5. Once you have a good Grenadier/Musketeer army, then hit the Persians (Grenadiers for City Attack Muskets for Pillaging)

Finally finish off the Incans at your Leisure (they should be the only one you really need to court). (You will probably never need to get Scientific method... just keep using Prophets for Shrines and spread those religions)

just wat i was going to say... you dont have the recources to fight persia atm, because you have to go in 2 seperate directions, otherwise i would say hit the biggest guy first... persia has a tech lead on our favorite spainard, but if you don't have the recources to do it soon, by the time you get enough to defend your cities and get two seperate stacks...

As an added bonus, i would rather attk the person who hates you first, rather than being attked from behind.
 
The biggest problem with taking Izzy atm is that she has way way more troops than any of the other AIs. Somehow, Cyrus' power graph is high, but if you look at his cities, they're poorly garrisoned. Izzy's are all packed like the AI normally only packs capitals.
 
Nares said:
The biggest problem with taking Izzy atm is that she has way way more troops than any of the other AIs. Somehow, Cyrus' power graph is high, but if you look at his cities, they're poorly garrisoned. Izzy's are all packed like the AI normally only packs capitals.

but what you have to realize is, in order to gain the eventual goal of domination, y ou have to take them both out. The victory is a victory, no matter which order. Neglecting isabella only gets her stronger, while neglegting cyrus only makes him stronger. The only difference is, isabella will attk you from behind.
 
Well another Option is get Cyrus to attack Isabella (after you declare war on her...in a fake war) and then once their stacks have exhausted themselves, Finish off Isabella and then the Persians.

Remember if he targets Chemistry he can start getting City Raider Grenadiers (he can even build them... Build a CR2 Mace and then upgrade...I believe you need Both Rifles and Gerenadiers to render them obsolete). That should be enough to start dealing with heavy city Stacks.
 
Krikkitone said:
Remember if he targets Chemistry he can start getting City Raider Grenadiers (he can even build them... Build a CR2 Mace and then upgrade...I believe you need Both Rifles and Gerenadiers to render them obsolete). That should be enough to start dealing with heavy city Stacks.

The other option is to just load up on CR Catapaults and upgrade them to Cannons later.

Betafor said:
Neglecting isabella only gets her stronger, while neglegting cyrus only makes him stronger. The only difference is, isabella will attk you from behind.

Well, the only thing about attacking Izzy first is that it's going to be long and bloody. Cyrus has a tech lead over Izzy. In fact, Cyrus is on par with Sisiutil in terms of tech. Waiting to attack Cyrus means that both Cyrus and Izzy will be tough. Attacking Cyrus first, while he's still weak, leaves only Izzy as a strong opponent.

Still, I don't know where all that "hidden" power may be. Cyrus is ahead of everyone on the power chart, yet he's still apparently fielding Midieval units, and not many at that. This may come down to the finer points of the power chart, relating specifically to what units are available to produce, rather than just what units are already in play.

That said, your point about Izzy is well taken. She's already initiated one war, and with all those troops, she's liable to initiate a second war. Bribing Cyrus to attack her might be the best option, as Cyrus could then be easily taken out with combined forces, followed by a sweep of the then weakend Izzy.
 
Nares said:
Bribing Cyrus to attack her might be the best option, as Cyrus could then be easily taken out with combined forces, followed by a sweep of the then weakend Izzy.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but beware that this could have some negative side effects. Getting the AI involved in a war puts them into their military building mode, which means he'll start researching military technologies, building lots of units, upgrading any old units, etc. If he and Isabella beat up on each other, then it doesn't matter. They'll each keep the other weakened. On the other hand, if Cyrus turns his technological lead into an advantage, he might suddenly go from the weak guy with an inexplicably high power rating to a very strong guy with an understandably high power rating.
 
Cyrus will be a monster, no doubt, but I think you can either take him out in one major campiagn or severely cripple him and his research. You'll need to build a constant stream of Grenadiers, upgrade your CR3s and build a horde of Barrage II and CR Catapults to go along with 8 Accuracy cats.

Bactra shouldn't be much of a problem. The holy city south of Osaka (Avar) should fall to culture strippers, grenadiers and sacrificial cats. The counterattack will come with knights and maybe muskets. The idea is to let Cyrus build his peaceful techs as you quickly mass and then hit in two directions at once, hopefully knocking out a good portion of his research capability before he can get to either Riflemen or his own Grenadiers.

Your War Elephants need to head to reserve role of attacking knights that come into your territory, or you're going to lose valuable grenadiers or macemen. Position them near the border of Edo/Seville and supplement with pikeman perhaps.

Meanwhile, you can move through Nationalism/Military Tradition and let the cavalry and war elephants fight his knights and longbows later. CR3 Grenadiers are more than a match for the Longbows, but could still take pretty good losses against full strength knights. Therefore, I'd build just Grenadiers and catapults for now. Upgrade anything CR3 when you can or build a CR2 Mace and upgrade for about 1/2 the cost. Quite effective when the Barrage II cats do their thing.

Alternative to the Naitonalism/MT line would be Steel for Cannons. They are quite effective also, but the research time is long and you'll still want to deal with his troops in the field.

Four cities should do the trick. After that, he's a crippled paper tiger. If fortune and good combat tactics shine upon you, you can take him out and ready an assault on Isabella around 1700AD. Cannons will be necessary of course, but it may be expensive to upgrade the catapults.

Banking . . . needed, but you won't have time to build any banks for awhile, so let it slide after researching guilds and head for the finisher, either cavalry or cannons.

You are going to take some major catapult losses in this war, so be prepared to sacrifice them to preserve your CR3 attacking force. Hit Cyrus with a huge SoD before he figures out he should be building catapults.

Otherwise . . . you can go for Isabella I suppose. Cyrus will get stronger and you will have to find a miltary tech advantage that lasts long enough to kill him. Either way, you've got some serious warring to do and figuring out the way to mass for local superiority will be the key.
 
my guess is build cats (loads of), build grenadiers (good deal of), build musketeers (some), in the 10 turns of peace treaty, then go for Isabella.
She already declared war. You sued for peace (with an advantage), but the reason for the war is still there : wrong religion.
You won't be able to bribe Cyrus into any war (i never could), but HC is friendly with you and furious vs Isabella. If you want someone to take the hit for you, he may be your guy (although he is low on power, AFAIK). You can even avoid the diplomacy penalty that way, waiting for HC to ask for help (shouldn't be too long).
All that being based on the power rating of HC, you may need to bribe him with some military tech (engineering is good vs conquistadores, and not very risky vs musketeers = not much lost)
 
Had a quick look at the save. May as well carry on vs Isabella; you ain't destined to become friends for a very long time and she may well attack if you're preoccupied with anyone else. You're at peace for 10 turns, use them to update your armies (you can trade gold with Isabella for 7 gp/turn), turning research down to 40% gives you grenadiers in 9 turns with money for upgrades just in time for peace treaty to expire. Updating troops will also give your power rating a significant boost. Isabella doesn't have guilds or iron yet.
I like Cabert's idea of trying to get HC on your side and of course cats are rarely wasted.
 
To get the domination win you not only have to take out 3 AI's, you have to subdue the land. For that reason I think you should continue against Isabelle.

Cyrus' land runs north-south and it not contigious. If you take him out first, HC and Spain are going to either flip your cities culturally, or plant new cities as soon as you raze the old ones. While you have some of the same problems with spain, the geography favors your ability to take and hold cities, or plant you own to cover the land.


I also agree with the earlier post about helping Hattie. Give her all you can, because it looks as if G. Khan is going to take her out otherwise. You want to keep him tied up for as long as possible.
 
Paul666 said:
I also agree with the earlier post about helping Hattie. Give her all you can, because it looks as if G. Khan is going to take her out otherwise. You want to keep him tied up for as long as possible.

Furthermore, if you're going for domination, there's really no disadvantage to helping her. There's about a 99.9% chance you'll never need to set foot on the other continent to win. On the off chance that you do, I guess you could argue that helping her now turns her into a stronger foe later, but I think it's more realistic to say that helping her now keeps her alive as a weak foe later. If you foresake her, Genghis is going to knock her out, and then if it turns out you need an extra city or two to reach the domination limit, you'll be fighting Genghis instead of Hatshepsut.

I guess maybe you're concerned about her turning around and trading your technology back to Cyrus and Huayna. That's a valid concern, but it seems like you ought to be able to keep her no more advanced than Cyrus. Give her enough to make her competitive but not enough that she has something worth trading with Cyrus.

I've occasionally tried bribing AI's to stop trading with each other in order to drive a wedge between them and to cut off trade with one of my enemies. That doesn't seem to be very effective. Nearly every time I try it, they're right back trading at the earliest opportunity. If I cut off trade with someone, they almost immediately go to annoyed or furious and are no longer willing to make any trades, but the AI doesn't appear to suffer the same penalty. In other words, don't rely on that to keep Egypt away from Cyrus.
 
I agree that Isabella can go down first. The land you showed had Cyrus scattered around the continent and near everyone else, so the cities that Cyrus has so kindly built for you may have issues beating back culture for a short while. The southwest has no such problem if you take it first.

The spacing between the wars of domination won't be too long, though, so if Cyrus is as unprepared for war as you said earlier on this page of the thread, you may want to take advantage of that tempting target with some grenadiers (well, I think it was you who said it at least) as it looks like you can research that advantage before he can prepare a response.

Choices, choices. I would take on Isabella, personally, since I would have already faced her armies once, but that's just my style.
 
Note, If you Want to take on Cyrus first, one option would be to switch to Hinduism (can you?) and try and get Isabella in on the action (HC is too weak to worry about, and fairly friendly anyways) [boy would spriritual help here]
 
I'm pretty sure Seville has Hinduism, so converting is a possibility, but the problem is I'd also have to switch to OR, then spread Hinduism to all my military cities to get the Theology XP bonus. That's getting increasingly iffy because all my cities now have two religions (Confucianism and Judaism).

Switching to Hinduism would appease Isabella, but would tick off Huayna, so now HE could be the one who jumps on me if I go after Cyrus.

I'm inclined, frankly, to finish Isabella off. Huayna is unlikely to attack, and even with a different religion, so, I believe, is Cyrus. The other option, which I think I mentioned, is to switch to Free Religion, which appeases everybody, and get the bonus XPs from Vassalage. Not as many as I'd get from Theocracy, and without the build boost, but it might be the best option.

As for taking on Spain, this is a plan I had in mind:

WarSpain01.jpg


This is largely based on the fact that Isabella's pillagers were getting so annoying last time. The first and primary attacks would be the red lines, taking out the Spanish cities closest to Edo, starting with Toledo. Edo has been the main target of her pillagers; the AI obviously wants to take out that iron mine, for all the good it will do.

Seville, in the meantime, will hold tough with reinforcements until it gathers together a second stack, which will take Madrid and Santiago. In the past, when I've tried a two-pronged approach, I've run into problems when one stack grew weak. The thing I like about this relatively parallel plan of attack is that I can peel off units from one stack to reinforce the other.

So the next round will probably consist of the elimination of Spain, then I'll be back to discuss how to take on Cyrus. Assuming something untoward doesn't happen in the meantime.
 
And I forgot to add that after the World Cup result yesterday, since I'm playing as France, I am relieved that Rome is not in this game.

But I'm not ruling out head-butting anybody. Quite the contrary. ;)
 
Oh well, if it's to be Spain, then on with it. I was hoping for a three-pronged attack against Persia (Avar, Bactra and Arbela with a drive on Susa after that), but such is not to be I guess.

The drive on Spain will be very tough and give Cyrus a chance to drive his research further while you're taking Spanish cities. Will the brunt of the campaign be Grenadiers, Catapults, Cannon or Cavalry? You're going to have to decide immediately. Which offers the better chance of success and also positions you for the next assault?

As for Brother Khan or Egypt, I wouldn't care much. You're on a win or lose domination decision and neither Khan nor Hatty will play a major role in that until they can send Galleons.

I'd go ahead and make the resource trades for dye, gems, etc. with Khan in one trade. Theatres may be important as the war weariness might be troubling if the advance gets bogged down.
 
Back
Top Bottom