ALC Game #6: France/Louis

He has 5 spots that lose food (at best hammers) 4 hills and a Plain.

With the Current 5 Watermills (the maximum) he has 3 excess food
5 Watermills+1 undeveloped Banana+2 for city Square
Basically once he gets two more pop (19), he can workshop all the Farms, and the Horse and Banana AND one Watermill. Then he will be perfectly balanced...

-5 Food from tiles-2 Food from one non-Free Specialist (at pop
+4 Watermills+1 Banana+2 City Square
 
One thing I noticed is that you dragged this out too long. You probably should have axe rushed someone. picked your second fight with maces, and your third with Musketeers. Once you have a large force and a place to send them, get the show on the road. On Noble, small pangea, I got a Domination win in 1522!
 
Krikkitone said:
He has 5 spots that lose food (at best hammers) 4 hills and a Plain.

With the Current 5 Watermills (the maximum) he has 3 excess food
5 Watermills+1 undeveloped Banana+2 for city Square
Basically once he gets two more pop (19), he can workshop all the Farms, and the Horse and Banana AND one Watermill. Then he will be perfectly balanced...

-5 Food from tiles-2 Food from one non-Free Specialist (at pop
+4 Watermills+1 Banana+2 City Square

Broken math, go back three squares.

1) There is room for six watermills at this city, provided that you remove the watermill opposite the bananas, and rebuild it after the bananas are watermilled (so that it ends up on the north segment, instead of the east segment).

2) In a production city, you don't want to run farms OR plantations (which both deliver +2F and 0 hammers) if you have the option of running a workshop (+3H) or a water mill (+1F +2H +2C). Every farm or plantation that worked deducts a hammer from the base production.

He's got 2 productionless tiles, that can be ignored for our immediate interest. That leaves him at -2F (-5 [hills, plains] + 2F [city] + 1F [bananas]).

Therefore, he can
Run two watermills, and workshop everything else, for maximum production at size 18

Run four watermills, and workshop everything else, for the exact same production at size 19 (trading an extra happy, and some hammers while growing to size 19, for 6C/turn and 3 GE points/turn).

Run six watermills, and workshop everything else, for the exact same production at size 20, doubling the previous tradeoff.

In each of these cases, he could grow one more size and work the lake.

If you try it in world builder, you will see what I mean. Or you will demonstrate that I'm full of it again. Let me know which, eh?
 
OK I see what you meant about getting 6 Watermills (didn't see the river up to the northwest that one was connected to) [Side note: I Really hate that complicated manipulation of Watermills.... I guess it gives you something Interesting to do with Workers in the late game]

And I was never suggesting Preserving the banana, Horse, etc. I was saying that's what could be Changed to workshops (1 Watermill, Banana, Horse, and the Farms)

In any case it is trading time for Engineer points+Commerce (neither of which are particularly useful (maybe for 3GD) at least as compared to time)

In any case the issue would be get to the desired population (by leaving things as is for high food until it is reached) and then Workshopping everything. (for that matter he could even go higher to pump out a GE to get 3GD and then readjust and let it starve down) In that case it would probably be best to go Down to the 4 Watermill model (less complicated readjustment needed) so essentially letting pop grow until you get the GE for 3GD (assuming its on some reasonable time then put in the shops and let them starve down, while he pumps out other Wonders... Broadway, then probably go to Radio for Eiffel (good for Conquest) and R+R.
 
Round 8: to 1954 AD

The round began, once again, with a few rounds of peace during which I prepared for war. My 3-turn period of Anarchy ended, I resumed researching Combustion, and my economy was humming along, allowing me to research at 80% and be over 100 gold in the black. Nice.

Besides building units and researching military techs, I took a few precautions to reduce war weariness, as I did before the war with Cyrus. To wit:

ALCLouis1954AD01.jpg


I later built the Eiffel Tower in Tours as well, though I felt a twinge of guilt for not placing it in Paris. C'est la vie.

I was mainly building Marines and Artillery but lusting after tanks. Finally, once Combustion was complete, I rushed some workers to the desert southwest of Edo and a few turns later I had oil:

ALCLouis1954AD02.jpg


Notice I didn't waste any time in starting to build tanks.

Now, I guess I could have just lowered the slider at this point and upgraded even more units, but I was looking at the tech tree and thinking what military techs would be great to have for this final push. Fighters and Bombers, I decided, would be useful. Besides, Huayna had researched Rocketry and had some SAM Infantry, and I didn't want the little guy to feel like he'd wasted his time on them, now did I?

ALCLouis1954AD03.jpg


Time was passing, and I decided that to avoid falling into the builder's trap of doing one thing after another before finally declaring war, I gave myself a deadline of 1940 AD, which seemed appropriate in some ways. It really helped--in the three turns before it, I started moving all my units into position, including moving workers away from the two main fronts and shoring up defenses.

This did have on unintended consequence, however. I moved most of my units out of Arbela to Rheims, and guess what happened:

ALCLouis1954AD04.jpg


Well, nuts. There went the Sistine Chapel, Versailles, and the Hagia Sophia. Oh well, I knew I'd be getting them back, and this freed up over a half-dozen units for the attack and left me with one less city to defend. Yeah, I'm one of those the-glass-is-half-full kinda guys.

Ding! 1940 rolled around. Time's up.

ALCLouis1954AD05.jpg


Have you noticed in these games that I always seem to be declaring war on a civ that is "Pleased" or even "Friendly"? I guess it doesn't say much for my diplomacy...

I had a stack parked, conveniently, right next to Ollantyambo (the Taoist holy city), so it fell immediately:

ALCLouis1954AD06.jpg


I felt a little nervous hitting ENTER at the end of the turn. Huayna had lots of Cavalry in both halves of his empire. I wasn't worried about losing cities, but I was worried about pillaging.

It turns out that Huayna did very little pillaging. Most of his units remained in his cities. Instead, he sent Artillery to weaken my stacks. He also sent a stack of Cavalry from Vilcas--which we'd been a little worried about--to attack Samaria, the former Persian city on a hill in the desert northwest of Osaka:

ALCLouis1954AD07.jpg


The AI takes a lot of flack, but I have to say that Huayna acquitted himself as well as he could. Basically, he did pretty much what I would have done in the same situation. He preserved most of his units for city defense while attempting to weaken and slow down or even turn away my stacks. He took a stack of his best offensive units (Cavalry), which were not going to help much with city defense, and a seige weapon in an attempt to take the "low-hanging fruit"--my closest and least defended city. In his shoes, I would have tried to use the city capture to persuade my AI opponent to sign a peace treaty--maybe even using the city as a bargaining chip.

Unfortunately for Huayna, I had railroads and spies. My spy revealed the movement of his stack towards Samaria, and I moved a few Marines and Tanks from Kyoto and Osaka to meet them when they arrived. So his stack was destroyed and Samaria remained in my hands. He did pillage its incense plantation, which caused me a little happiness problems, but they were more annoying than actually troublesome.

Huayna's cities, in contrast, were falling like dominoes. After I took Ollantyambo, Machu Pichu, Arbela, and Cuzco in the east and Huamanga in the west, I checked the victory conditions:

ALCLouis1954AD08.jpg


Granted, several of those cities were still in revolt, but it appeared that I had a ways to go for a domination victory. Since Huayna was mounting an even less effective counter-attack than Cyrus or Isabella, I started pulling defensive units out of border cities to join the attack. I decided that I needed to take all of Huayna's eastern cities and as many of his western ones as were needed for the win, and the faster the better.

I had Fighters attacking to soak up the SAM fire, then bombers to weaken city defenses and cause collateral damage. Battleships were parked outside the coastal cities to strip away city defenses as well. I didn't really need to use seige weapons for anything but city attacks and collateral damage anymore; the city defenses were usually gone, thanks to the bombers and/or battleships, by the time the stack pulled up outside the city gates. I also had several stacks moving through Incan territory now, weakening defenses and capturing cities, all trying to rush the victory as much as possible.

ALCLouis1954AD09.jpg


So Tiwanaku, Gordium, and Parsagdae fell, and the east was mine, all mine. (Yes, it does feel a little weird having to capture the same cities twice in the same game, especially from two different civs.) It still wasn't enough--or at least, wouldn't be until those cities emerged from revolt several turns later.

I started shifting units to the western front. I took Vilcas, then I took Magyar.

ALCLouis1954AD10.jpg


Then I checked the Victory Conditions screen:

ALCLouis1954AD11.jpg


Awesome. All I had to do now was hit ENTER to bring on the next turn.

ALCLouis1954AD12.jpg


Woo-hoo!

Les enfants de la Patrie,
Le jour de gloire est arrive...


Post-mortem comin' right up!
 
Post-Mortem

First of all, a few screenshots.

The game score graph:

ALCLouisPM01.jpg


GNP:

ALCLouisPM02.jpg


Mfg. Goods:

ALCLouisPM03.jpg


Power, for the entire game:

ALCLouisPM04.jpg


Power for the last 50 turns:

ALCLouisPM05.jpg


Cities and wonders:

ALCLouisPM06.jpg


Statistics:

ALCLouisPM07.jpg


Heh, look at that--I built all of 5 cities. :D

And my final score:

ALCLouisPM08.jpg


Not bad--a better adjusted score than any other ALC game with only two exceptions: Victoria (24409) and, of course, Hatshepsut (44777).

Overall, I agree with Gnarfflinger that this took too long and therefore could have been an even earlier win with a higher score. However, we started off talking about a diplomatic win. I was well past the point of Gnarff's suggested early axe rush when I realized that I had a disproportionately large continent that I could conquer for a domination win. Even so, if I had switched foes from Isabella to Cyrus as some suggested, I also think I would have won sooner.

Also, this is just my preferred style of gameplay. I like to pause between wars and do some building. The longer the game goes, the more exhausting wars become. Micro-managing cities is nothing compared to moving all those modern units around on a map. So it's nice to have a breather every now and then, even if it does mean a slightly later win and a slightly later score.

In terms of the purpose of the ALC--attempting to exploit as much of the leaders' characteristics as possible--I think I did reasonably well. In particular, I felt I did my best to get the most out of the unique unit. I confirmed what most people asserted about them: they are a niche unit, best used for one particular purpose (pillaging).

I also have to confirm that Musketeers have a limited window for use. While Gunpowder can be obtained faster than Rifling, Military Tradition, or Chemistry, the AI will bee-line to those when confronted with Musketeers. And once Cavalry and Riflemen appear, the Musketeers' day is done. My last stack of pillaging Musketeers died in a vain attempt to pillage Cyrus' horses. Riflemen took them out, even though they were ensconced in a forest and one of them had Woodsman II. They took a few Riflemen with them, but they died nonetheless.

Overall, then, I think a balanced research approach for France makes sense. But you should be the first civ to obtain Gunpowder, and then you can make the most of Musketeers for one campaign, maybe even two.

I like Louis' traits. They strike me as a very flexible combination. Despite France's lack of a powerful and durable UU, cheap forges and quick border expansion lend themselves very well to war. I suspect in the hands of a better warmonger than I, Louis can be even more of a conqueror. Yet we also could have pursued a creative, diplomatic, or a space race win with those traits, especially if you focus on quickly building the wonders that will best complement your chosen victory condition.

(I'd love it if he had a Spiritual for a third trait after all those civics changes, but I suppose I could say that for every leader.)

-----------------------------------------------

Before we start talking about the next ALC, let me just say that I'm going to take a breather. I've been playing these games and posting these threads for three months straight now, and they've been a lot of fun, but I could use a break.

I also would like to think and talk about the future of these threads. I know a lot of people enjoy them and learn from them, but I've now played a game, not with every available leader or UU, but with every available trait and opening tech. I'm worried about the threads getting repetitive. Several people have suggested that I should start playing the games up a level on Monarch, and I'm starting to think they're right.

Another possiblity is selecting a smaller number of the less-popular leaders rather than trying every single darn one, despite the title of the series. Frederick, Mansa, Peter, and especially Isabella all hold appeal for me in that regard.

One regular poster recently suggested to me via PM the idea of an ALC succession game, perhaps by invitation, for the regular ALC posters. Sort of a chance for you armchair quarterbacks to put your money where your mouth is. :cool: We could also try playing some of the remaining leaders that way.

Anyway, I'm open to suggestions. I've noticed the idea of a single-player game thread has really taken off on this board, so even if I stop these for awhile, there'll be no lack of game threads for all of us to participate in.
 
let me be the first to congradulate you on a great game.

if i had to say an idea then it would be since your taking a break play SG's with the new warlords leaders (get warlords dead quick) while testing out new things about the game. that way even experts would learn.

if you were to do an SG i'd asume you would invite judging on SG's people have played. i would be honoured to be invited but i really couldn't commit myself that much. many peoples ways to post reports vary to mine are not very dail up friendly if you've seen my SG's. i guess you would have a tough job

keep em coming
 
It was certainly a wonder full game. I guess you're still not fully into war-monger mode. That's ok; it's about exploring options rather than relentless pursuit of a quicker victory and higher score.
 
Sisiutil said:
Before we start talking about the next ALC, let me just say that I'm going to take a breather. I've been playing these games and posting these threads for three months straight now, and they've been a lot of fun, but I could use a break.

Can't say I blame you. In fact, I've been wondering how long it would take for that to happen. It must take a lot of work to post these games.

I also would like to think and talk about the future of these threads. I know a lot of people enjoy them and learn from them, but I've now played a game, not with every available leader or UU, but with every available trait and opening tech. I'm worried about the threads getting repetitive. Several people have suggested that I should start playing the games up a level on Monarch, and I'm starting to think they're right.

I've just about reached the same point in my own games. I don't really want to step up to Monarch, because I have a bad feeling it's going to limit my early strategic options in a way I won't like, but I think it's probably a necessary step. That would be my recommendation if/when you resume these. Move up to Monarch and select a set of leaders that covers all the traits and starting techs with a possible emphasis on unique units you haven't yet played (a Several Leaders Challenge? ;)).

Another possiblity is selecting a smaller number of the less-popular leaders rather than trying every single darn one, despite the title of the series. Frederick, Mansa, Peter, and especially Isabella all hold appeal for me in that regard.

I'm not sure I would call Mansa Musa less popular, but maybe that's just me. He's one of my personal favorites. Financial, Spiritual, plus an underrated builder's dream unique unit. The Skirmisher gets a bad rap because it's not a very useful offensive unit (which is true), but if you want to hunker down and build for a while, you'll never lose a city that's defended by City Garrison Skirmishers.

Another wrinkle to consider is the Warlords expansion. If you plan to get that, then suddenly many/most of the leaders' traits change so you conceivable want to go back and try them again using a different approach. Plus you get three more traits, unique buildings, etc. So with that just a week away, this might be the perfect time to take a little break.
 
Nicely done! This has been an enjoyable thread for so many that I hope you continue it after a brief hiatus.

A couple of ideas for the thread in the future:

1. Stay with Prince. Although the collective wisdom pretty much means that you won't suffer many defeats at this level, it is a level quite a few people play at and the threads are instructive and encouraging.

2. Try different map types. An island map might ust be the ticket as it would mean a whole different set of tactics and research progression.

Rest up.
 
I like the idea of differing map types. Perhaps discuss that in the pre-game thread. If you have a war monger, try a pangea map. Got a late game UU, maybe Islands would be better. Hub, wheel and maze looked kind of interesting too.

Maybe add more AI on the same size or smaller map...
 
Fun game to watch.

I agree that a Monarch game is pretty different at a couple levels. I can CS slingshot almost guaranteed if I choose to, for example, but I see very few ways to get all the helpful early wonders and religions in the same game without help from my neighbors. You can lose an early advantage real quickly if you try to build everything yourself.
 
Actually, I think your view on Musketeers is still biased. The reason why you think like that is simply because you chose to employ them that way. If you had focused on getting them earlier (granted without sacrificing your economy), you would have found them more useful than just for pillaging. They are not as straight-forward as things like Redcoats, but they are only as niche as you make them.
 
aelf said:
Actually, I think your view on Musketeers is still biased. The reason why you think like that is simply because you chose to employ them that way. If you had focused on getting them earlier (granted without sacrificing your economy), you would have found them more useful than just for pillaging. They are not as straight-forward as things like Redcoats, but they are only as niche as you make them.

Agreed. I've frequently (as Napoleon mind you) beelined to gunpowder and used musketeers as the bulk of my force. They're basically like *slightly* less powerful, but much more versatile, Knights and are available around the same time. You can essentially think of them as knights that don't require protection from pikemen.
 
congratulations, for a win with Louis the not so loved.
Just a thing : final score picture isn't right (it's a score graph!).

No ALC then, but a F(ew)LC?
too bad for the lurkers, but i frankly never thought you would get time to really play all the leaders.
In my opinion you did great with some not too well played leaders (Victoria! Louis! Hatchepetsuh!Mao!), showing everyone what you can do with those guys (sorry Vicky). Good work.

My advice for the future?
Go on holydays ;)

If you come back to play monarch games with Peter, mind you of this builder mode you sometimes switch to ;).

I must say the best ALC game is the one with Hatchepetsuh. Best score is obvious, but you just get used to spiritual and showed to full extent the ability of the war chariot.
One other leader you could play is Cyrus. Same kind of UU, different traits.
Showing the difference between immortals and war chariots (immortals don't die ;) ) would be good.

edit: now that i thought a bit farther, will you build an article about the strats used for the leaders you played? a link to the ALC threads for each leader would show more details.
I was thinking about Victoria and Hatchepetsuh, which were very nice games, with rich strategic thoughts. Louis was a good game, but not much to be learned (for me) here.

could be a quick summary of the leaders traits and UU, some statistics of the game (how many UU units did you build, how many did you lose, how many wonders for the industrious guy, how many civic changes for the spiritual, ...). Then some strategic afterthoughts (like going for a late cultural win without the slider :eek:)
 
Congrats on the win. I don't blame you for wanting to take a breather.

Moving up to Monarch can be frustrating at first but it's doable so long as you take your time and carefully plan your every move. It can help to improve your game because it allows for fewer mistakes.

If you just want to relax then I would probably stay with Prince but try to improve on things like score and finish date with multiple victory types.
 
Thx for the very interesting and fun ALC again Sisiutil. Take a good break and have a nice holiday. I hope you will move up to Monarch next. This way I will be able to learn something from that again since I am still having problems with that level. Cheers mate.
 
Of course you could continue ALC on Monarch (when you're in the mood for carrying on) and maybe finish ALC on Emperor (if you extrapolate your progess so far) while keeping other factors standard.
 
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