ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

VoiceOfUnreason said:

Well, we aren't close yet, because I don't agree that for a cottage economy 500 GNP goes to 500 raw gold. Are we confusing gold and commerce? Let me try again.

Click to expand...

When i say "raw" i mean "before dividing into beakers and gold via the slider, since the question was about a variable slider.

A hypothetical specialist economy, running at about 500 GNP, would look like specialists worth 320 raw beakers, running in cities with a 25% modifier, plus 100 commerce, which runs with no modifier at all. We don't bother to build libraries in the commerce towns, so that 100 commerce is converted to 100 beakers, 100 gold, or some mix, depending on where the slider is set - but regardless of the setting, the total GNP is still 500 (320*1.25 + (100-gold) + gold).

A commerce driven economy, matching this at 100% science, would need to have 400 commerce (400 * 1.25 = 500 beakers = 500 GNP). But as you start moving the slider, GNP falls - every 10% on the slider lowers the GNP by 10, so that when you are running 0% science, instead of 500 GNP (all research), you have 400 GNP (all gold).

Click to expand...

Before we continue with this, we need to have an established lingo so there is no confusion.

GNP- sum of BASE beakers and gold (GROSS product)(i think we are different here)
beakers- science units that pay for techs
commerce-money pre-slider
gold-money post-slider as gold OR shrines/ect

So the question: is this loss of 100 GNP the effect you were trying to describe when you wrote:

Sidenote: my apologies to everyone - I should have looked more carefully at tech costs before setting up this example, which while possibly illustrative is hopelessly out of scale - I ought to have been aiming for economies producing 150-200 beakers per turn, because what we are really talking about here is the era between libraries and markets/grocers/banks. 500 GNP is too strong for that era, I ought to have scaled things to the 1 tech/5 turn standard. Something to correct going forward, assuming that I'm getting agreement on the basics of the topic.

Click to expand...

LOL . There are two issues on debate here-since you just openned one up.

One- The value/devalue of raw GNP when it is put through the slider via boni like libraries(The first part of your post). My point-This value/devalue only happens when you bring the slider above 0. When it is at 0, you can adjust the boni for gold/beakers seperatly in specialized cities. In anything else, or a cottage econ, both boni are needed in each city producing GNP.

Two- Matinance effect on economy and how it differs in SE/CE(the quote you made). My point - In a CE, Matinance does 2 things-Prevents an increased gold surplus and forces you to lower the slider, hurting your beaker output. In an SE, Matinance does 1 thing - prevents an increased gold surplus, since(i'm getting tired of typing this ) the beakers and gold are separate at 0% slider. This then leads to the assumption that you can run a given beaker count at a variable gold count, so long as it is postive.

Betafor said:

One- The value/devalue of raw GNP when it is put through the slider via boni like libraries(The first part of your post). My point-This value/devalue only happens when you bring the slider above 0. When it is at 0, you can adjust the boni for gold/beakers seperatly in specialized cities. In anything else, or a cottage econ, both boni are needed in each city producing GNP.

Click to expand...

I don't understand this. When it's at 0, all your specialist cities are producing a little bit of commerce and a bunch of beakers, exactly the same as a cottage economy with the slider at like 40%.

@ Elledge

What Betafor means:
In a specialists economy you specialize your cities:
You have usually one gold city with cottages, 1-2 production cities, 1 Super Science city and the rest normal science cities. In your gold city, as soon as the cottages are matured, you'll make 30-90 raw commerce. You build a bank, market and grocer here, and you'll make 60-180 gold here. Of course this is the city where you build Wall Street etc. etc.. Therefore, you will produce some 90% of all your gold in this one city; In your production, science and Super Science cities, you'll make almost no raw commerce; only 1 commerce from tiles with fresh water and some from resources. Therefore you'll make approximately 5 commerce in every one of these cities; of course you are not going to build markets, grocers and banks for those cities, are you? You only have to build science buildings in your (Super) Science cities, and production buildings in your production cities. This leads to a higher efficiency: In a cottage economy you built science AND gold buildings in all your cities, in a Specialists economy you build science OR gold buildings in all your cities. This saves you 30-50% of the total amount of hammers you have, which can be turned into units, for a strong military, par example.
And another benefit: If you make all your gold in one city, and you build Wall Street etc. there, you'll get the 100% bonus over 80-90% of all gold you produce, instead over 5-15% in a cottage economy. In the same way, you'll make 50-80% of all your science in your super science city, making the academy etc. you build there, and through them your GL, much more effective then they were in a cottage economy.

Hope this helps.
Regards,
William III

minor point: to build wall street in commerce city you need six banks (standard map) which need six marketplaces.
No mention of shrinegold which is a major factor in either cottage or specialist economies.
My preference is to go for capital as superscience city (bureaucracy +cottages +academy +science specialists) and shrine city as gold city. Quite happy for the rest to be hybrid (apart from production cities)
A benefit of specialist economy does seem to be number of GP generated.
How does bureaucracy tie in with specialist economy?

Elledge said:

I don't understand this. When it's at 0, all your specialist cities are producing a little bit of commerce and a bunch of beakers, exactly the same as a cottage economy with the slider at like 40%.

Click to expand...

Say that a CE is producing 500 commerce. With the slider at 0, all the commerce is being converted into gold. At 50%, half gold, half beakers.

Say that a SE is producing 400 beakers, 100 commerce. With the slider at 0, you have 400 beakers and 100 gold. At 50%, you have 450 beakers and 50 gold.

While, yes, it is possible to maneuver the slider so you get the exact same beaker/gold count per turn in both econs, see William's post.

The differnance- the differance between gold and commerce. The differance- the "little bit of commerce and a bunch of beakers" are generated differently for a SE or CE. In a CE, the percentage is totally based on the slider, and adjusting the science HAS to adjust the gold. in an SE at 0 slider, you can increase the beakers w/o affecting the gold by adding a scienctist or vica versa w/ cottage. In a CE, you have no choice but to simply increase raw commerce and let the slider figure it out, which is (here we go) limited by your matinance.

How does bureaucracy tie in with specialist economy?

Click to expand...

Since your capital is usually a jack of all trades city until later in the game- I prefer to make science city elsewhere, unless i get a good capital start. Either way, its a waste to have the beurocracy boni on a science(no bonus) or jack of all trades(small bonus) city. I prefer moving my captial to my established commerce city to make best use of it. I have, once, put it in a production city, but that was because i had my wealth city set up early and i needed to expand more than build...

Betafor said:

GNP- sum of BASE beakers and gold (GROSS product)(i think we are different here)
beakers- science units that pay for techs
commerce-money pre-slider
gold-money post-slider as gold OR shrines/ect

Click to expand...

OK, this is a lousy definition of GNP (because GNP already means something else), but I don't have a better word to offer, so we can stick with it.

OK, first of all, I think you are kidding yourself that maintenance affects a commerce economy differently than it does an SE economy. Regardless of what kind of economy you are running, you cannot sustain your research rate if your income is lower than your expenses. The comparison between economies needs to fix income, or if maintenance costs are significantly different for the two economies fix income minus maintenance.

Second - a commerce economy can run at full science or full wealth, which a specialist economy cannot (a specialist economy can only get half of the contributions from specialists converted to wealth) minor detail; it probably doesn't matter during the period where we care about the difference.

Third - deficit research doesn't work as well for a specialist economy as a commerce economy, because the commerce cities don't have the research multipliers. Again, minor point.

The big point for me, which I've been missing up to this point, is that a specialist economy gets essentially the same yield from its commerce until the gold multiplier buildings come on line. The only advantage you have up to this point is the hammers that you aren't investing in buildings in the commerce cities (btw: even the capital? that's an awfully long time to go without a library when the gold can't buy anything useful).

Does this imply that a specialist game needs to put a higher priority on the wealth techs?

VoiceOfUnreason said:

OK, this is a lousy definition of GNP (because GNP already means something else), but I don't have a better word to offer, so we can stick with it.

Click to expand...

I know, but does it really matter so long as we keep it constant?

OK, first of all, I think you are kidding yourself that maintenance affects a commerce economy differently than it does an SE economy. Regardless of what kind of economy you are running, you cannot sustain your research rate if your income is lower than your expenses. The comparison between economies needs to fix income, or if maintenance costs are significantly different for the two economies fix income minus maintenance.

Click to expand...

You still have tunnel vision(it's ok i'm even having trouble seperating the 2 arguements i'm trying to make). YES! - Both a CE and SE will fall if gpt < expenses. But that's not the point.

In a CE, it's a gradual decline process, bringing beakers goes down as you have to move the slider to 70% then 60% then 50%, until you run a deficit at 0%.

In a SE at 0%, it's all or nothing. There is only one point where gpt < expenses, and that point is deadly. ANYTHING above that point is EXACTLY the same beaker wise than any other point. There is no gradual down of the slider, because you can't go past 0. So, the beakers remain the same until you run a deficit at 0%

Put the 2 red sentances together.

Second - a commerce economy can run at full science or full wealth, which a specialist economy cannot (a specialist economy can only get half of the contributions from specialists converted to wealth) minor detail; it probably doesn't matter during the period where we care about the difference.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Though, theoretically you can simply switch all your scientists to merchants at 0% and run full wealth, or run scientists at 100%, BUT this would not be as efficiant, as you don't have banks in your science cities or libraries in your wealth cities. Inefficiant - because it's anti-specialization - which is a MAJOR component of a SE. So i would like to think it's inefficiancy not that they can't do it.

Third - deficit research doesn't work as well for a specialist economy as a commerce economy, because the commerce cities don't have the research multipliers. Again, minor point.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Again, not can't - shouldn't. Inefficiancy due to specialization. One major thing you are doing by running a diff econ is trading hammers used on buildings for flexibility or vica versa.

The big point for me, which I've been missing up to this point, is that a specialist economy gets essentially the same yield from its commerce until the gold multiplier buildings come on line. The only advantage you have up to this point is the hammers that you aren't investing in buildings in the commerce cities (btw: even the capital? that's an awfully long time to go without a library when the gold can't buy anything useful).

Does this imply that a specialist game needs to put a higher priority on the wealth techs?

Click to expand...

Um... Gold can build upgrades early on... But besides that i see your point...

The capital i like to make a jack of all trades city to support all the others UNTIL you get wealth techs and move palace to a commerce city and run beurocracy. I'm not sure how you would incorperate that into your game.

Higher priority for wealth? Depends on your needs. As stated WAY above in a previous post - SE only needs gold (the whole paragraph discounting more plus gpt for upgrades/rushbuy) for matinance, and if you have a surplus, you can expand. It depends on your needs. Wealth techs bring more gold - and more gold allows more expansion. Pure and simple. If you already have your continent conqured and settled, there really isn't a point having more gpt. If you are about to attk a neighbor, and want to keep his cities, you need to plan ahead and get some gold to support it, weather that means develouping a better commerce city or researching banking.

Um...guys? I'm playin' a game here. Maybe you could direct your attention to how all this specifically affects what's going on in it.

I'm not saying that a discussion of this depth is not worthwhile--far from it. I just think the purpose of the ALC threads is to illustrate concepts like this through the vehicle of a game. Along those lines, there isn't much feedback on how to proceed with the next round yet (so I'll hold off on it for a bit).

William III brought up an interesting point. I'm building Marketplaces in several of my cities. Are they indeed a waste of hammers? All of those cities are producing more than 4 gpt, and some are well over 10 gpt, so in my mind, they're not wasted. BUT I acknowledge, once again, that this is my first time running a specialist economy and may be missing the big picture.

I'm not down to 1 tech in 5 turns just yet, more like 7-8 turns, but I'm getting there. I think a little more conquering is in order. More cities = more specialists = more beakers. I think we pretty much agreed on using the Mongol capital for my wealth city, so the sooner I get on with that, the better.

I still have a Great Prophet in Berlin! I'm still thinking I should save him for the Buddhist shrine, which Monty STILL hasn't built (he did manage to build the Sistine Chapel, though, so I have something else to look forward to taking from him). The alternative is to use him for either the Confucian or the Christian shrine, but then I'd have to build a lot of missionaries and make a concerted effort to spread it. In addition, neither Tarsus nor especially Arbela are going to be able to capitalize (literally) on the shrine because of the tiles around them. Tenochtitlan is quite another story. Hmmm...what's everyone's thoughts on having TWO wealth cities?

two wealth cities would be well advised. otherwise you'll find yourself trapped in a position where u are unable to research or expand, due to having to devote a number of scientists to a merchant role instead. save the prophet, use him like you intended. take out monty's cities and build a few more if you need to. specialist cities don't always need the full fat cross, so you can use tight city placement if you need to. as long as you can emphasize food you'll have enough to run more scientists.

now watch as futurehermit and the other supporters of a specialist econ blast my opinion, all I can say is best of luck and I look forward to seing your next update

NaZ

Sorry, Sisiutil, I'm trying to keep on topic, but it seems i have to go deep to prove a point.

The issue is- expansion. When are you ready to expand in the game. We dont want you to conquer the continant and not be able to support it, but its hard to tell if you can w/ a specialist econ.

That being said - do what you do best - war for the prize! You should use the GP asap, and that means a holy city that is worthwhile.

Build an intermediate, secondary commerce city in persia's ex-land to supplement you until you can get the north rolling and you rprimary commerce online.

As to markets/grocers - i wouldn't call myself a SE expert, but i think if you need it for the health/happy, do it. If you have nothing else to build, build units(units are always good when you have neighbors on the same continent still)

Sisiutil said:

Um...guys? I'm playin' a game here. Maybe you could direct your attention to how all this specifically affects what's going on in it.

I'm not saying that a discussion of this depth is not worthwhile--far from it. I just think the purpose of the ALC threads is to illustrate concepts like this through the vehicle of a game. Along those lines, there isn't much feedback on how to proceed with the next round yet (so I'll hold off on it for a bit).

Click to expand...

Hey man, its your game - if you want these discussions taken elsewhere, just put the kibosh on it. Oh, you did. Um.... I'll create a shadow thread to continue this discussion out of band.

William III brought up an interesting point. I'm building Marketplaces in several of my cities. Are they indeed a waste of hammers? All of those cities are producing more than 4 gpt, and some are well over 10 gpt, so in my mind, they're not wasted. BUT I acknowledge, once again, that this is my first time running a specialist economy and may be missing the big picture.

Click to expand...

Well, I haven't been asking all these questions because I understand the style either, though the game is moving out of the era that I've been concentrating my attention on. But here's my thought - if building Markets in your science cities for the gold is the best use of your hammers now, something is seriously broken in the strategy.

What's a market for? +25% gold, two merchant specialists, happy from fur, ivory, silk, whales.

25% of 8 gold is 2. big whoop.
slots for merchant specialists? Worthless as (a) you are running caste system, so you don't need the slots (b) this is a science city, so you don't want to be running merchants anyway.
happy? Your city isn't close the the happy limit already in place.

So which has more leverage right now, a Market, four catapults, or some other 150 hammer item? If the market is the right answer, then you are heading toward building all of the wealth buildings everywhere, and one of the main arguments of the specialist economy is going to collapse.

BTW: what's going on in the capital - you are running a specialist economy with bureaucracy? ? Maybe the changeover hasn't happened yet, but I really expected you to have the cottages running there by this point... unless the plan is to move the capital somewhere else, and convert Berlin to pure specialists?

I'd have to agree with VoU. Unless you are building up a city that will produce a lot of wealth, or need one of the secondary bonuses from a Market, then you should be making soldiers over buildings. You should be thinking of your gold production in terms of the rate you can capture enemy cities. Two wealth cities might be overkill, you really only need one for 'emergency' money. It's science cities you will never have enough of.

Something else to consider is how many junk cities you can spam into your territory. Any city that can grow just enough to stagnate on supporting two specialists may be worth founding, these can be the first cities you convert to running merchants over scientists when you hit a cash crunch. After you've built the Statue of Liberty you can easily have any such city giving you 24 beakers shortly after founding, which seems like a good deal. How fast will you reach this total under other circumstances? This is also a reminder to make sure this Wonder is your top priority after the Liberalism race is over, since it's the next thing after Oxford to give your tech rate a shot in the arm.

You screenshots show you will a lot of disposable income even after the demise of Cyrus. Have you been spending anything on troop upgrades?

Yeah, VoU, that's what I've been thinking (i.e. cottages around Berlin). It's going to be several turns before I have Karakorum available as a wealth city. In fact, there's a chance that I may not even have it running that way before the next round--I'm just thinking that to really get it humming, not only do I have to conquer it, it has to come out of revolt, then I have to conquer the surrounding Mongol cities to free up those tiles, THEN I have to wait for the war to be more or less over so my Workers are safe, then I have to build cottages, and they have to mature, and...

You get the picture.

Since I'm running Bureaucracy and have a market almost built in Berlin, it's starting to make sense to flip most of its grassland river tiles over to cottages. In fact, I probably should have started doing that awhile ago, but I got distracted by the concept of using Karakorum as my first wealth city, and a bit too committed to the "purity" of the SE, if you will. ("Oh, no, Berlin is a pure science city! I couldn't possibly change that!")

I may end up having three wealth cities. Or I may just use Karakorum for science, leave Berlin as the Capital, and push towards Tenochtitlan. It promises to be VERY lucrative since it's also the Buddhist holy city.

I will also take the markets out of the queues of the other cities unless they're almost done and/or the cities are producing well over 12 gpt. They'd be better off building units or science multipliers like monasteries. I've also put off building courthouses, but maintenance costs are starting to rise, so it's time to tackle that.

Sisiutil said:

I will also take the markets out of the queues of the other cities unless they're almost done and/or the cities are producing well over 12 gpt. They'd be better off building units or science multipliers like monasteries. I've also put off building courthouses, but maintenance costs are starting to rise, so it's time to tackle that.

Click to expand...

markets give a happiness bonus!
don't you need it?

IMHO you need theatres more than markets though, since it gives more effect to the culture slider you'll have to use later.

As soon as you have researched education, you'll be building universities everywhere (well, at least in 6 cities) = not units.
Do you have enough units already to crush kublai? (i was thinking catapults, mostly. My guess is to have 12 ready to go minimum+elephants 4 minimum + macemen 8 minimum+knights (as much as possible, 4 minimum) )

I looked at your savegame and again it is very interesting. My assessment of your situation is Military 10/10, Research 9/10, Gold 3/10, Hammers 3/10 (all figures estimated and purely for effect ) Seriously, I do feel you have over- emphasised research at the expense of your gold production and hammers. That is a product of the advice you've been given (that a SE needs minimal infrastructure) and that the Caste System is effective (or even needed in a SE ). At present all your commerce is just meeting the running costs of the empire with some help from trades. I can't see this frail economy surviving another large expansion without major surgury.

You have been able to build markets for perhaps 100 turns and yet the capital still doesn't have one despite having over 24 commerce the whole time... that's 600+ gold you could have picked up for one whip and a small loss of research for a few turns. The same argument applies to grocer and later bank although they have been available for less time. Some time in the future you will look back at this period and say "I wish I'd built those buildings in the capital in 1200AD " . Running the Caste System in a SE is bad news for production unless you have a Spiritual leader.

What I think you need to do in the medium term is decide that certain high productivity cities such as Berlin and Hamburg build all of market, grocer and bank for 100% gold bonus. Then they can run merchant specialists to get 6 gold and 3 beakers if you need more gold. These cities will go a long way to meeting your gold costs with minimal impact on the beaker output especially as the building improve commerce at the same time.

Religion can help you a lot over time, but this is not a quick fix. You need to make a shrine in one of the 3 holy cities you have using the G Prophet you have kept for a long time. Munich seems to be the best choice. Then build market, grocer and bank and spread religion to all your cities for a nice exchange of 40 hammers for 2 gold pt

To generate more G Prophets I would build Ankor Wat in Persepolis. You have stone and failing would give nice money anyway... but if you suceed you could build a few temples there as well and run a lot of priests to add to the GP pool there that is already 95 % G prophet. That is a long term strategy that would allow you to be sure of being able to build shrines in the future.

I have never won a monarch game without a shrine - founded or captured. It seems to me that the GPT you get from a holy city are quintessential in maintaining a larger empire (+10 cities).

For me, at the very least, it usually saves me the trouble of having to run merchants (and thus stunting growth). Pop a market and a bank in one of those cities and it really helps keep you out of defeceit.

I don't play the game with a calculator at my side, but it does feel like shrines help push you over "the hump" of maintenance.

I agree with uncleJJ. After reviewing your gpt, while you have a fairly good gold surplus, it is not enough to afford a major expansion.

However, you do have quite a nice stockpile... Perhaps you could run a deficit for a few turns WHILE setting up your infastructure... just a thought.

Pull the brakes and consolidate. Monty and KK has already been at war, right? Maybe you can fuel that conflict a bit and make Monty wear Kublai down. He'll probably gain some cities but that's not really a problem as Monty never techs up. He can be a bit of a pain when he gets to machinery and tries a maceman rush, but he's usually more of an annoyance than a real threath.

Round 7: to 1530 AD

I took everyone's remarks to heart, even if I didn't do exactly what I was told. What can I say, I have a rebellious streak. So sue me. The main point, though, was that with the slider at 0% and the GPT in the negative, I had no room to maneuver, let alone invade someone, and had to make some corrections.

I think this is, once again, my lack of familiarity with the specialist economy shining through. With a cottage economy, a surplus of +2 gold or an occassional deficit in the same neighbourhood is not a bad thing. With the SE, though, you really should be raking it in. It's a question of looking at the screen and not taking things for granted just because they look like what I'm used to.

So rather than go to war with Kublai right away, I took several turns to build infrastructure. I did take the markets out of the queues, except in Berlin, where I sent workers to start converting all its riverside grassland tiles into cottages. I built forges, missionaries to spread the various religions, and a few catapults to prepare for the upcoming war.

Meanwhile, I sent a Knight through Mongol and then Aztec territory to see what I'd be up against.



It didn't look too intimidating, but as you'll see, ol' Kublai had a trick or two up his sleeve.

The distant continent began to make itself known:



Interesting how he showed up on the exact turn I discovered Optics (after which it was back to the Liberalism race). I quickly built two Caravels, one in Tarsus and one in Cologne, and sent them out to boldly go where I hadn't gone yet.

Caesar wasn't very friendly (or useful), but several turns later one of my Caravels met his much more accomodating neighbour:



The best part of that deal was the world map, as it both allowed me to find the other missing civ as well as giving me a leg up on the circumnavigation race.

Shortly after that, I met up with our final mystery contestant:



Hatty is less friendly that she usually is, mainly because of religious differences. Also, once I finished that initial tech trade with Roosevelt, the other continents' civs really didn't have much to offer (though I did snag Music, her map, and some gold from Hatty for Philosophy). It seems the SE, even in my inept hands, has indeed paid huge dividends, and I have a pretty comfortable tech lead. The Universities from Education are helping to maintain it, as will Oxford, which will be complete in Frankfurt in 1540 (the next turn).

In terms of relations, with Kublai and then Monty about to fall beneath the German juggernaut, I'm gonna be fresh outta friends. I've decided to stay as friendly as possible with Roosevelt since he's mired in the bottom half of the pack, and Hatty and Julie are being rather frosty. I even gifted Roosevelt Education when he asked for it; I turned down Caesar when he showed up demanding gold, however.

You'll also notice that half-way through the round, my economy was doing much better--mainly thanks to the cottages around Berlin, plus a Market, Bank, and, later, a Grocer in that city as well. I also got another Great Prophet in Berlin and used him to build the Confucian shrine. So it was time to start makin' trouble. I first checked in with Monty to see if he wanted to join in on the fun, but his price tag was exhorbitant:



You have to hand it to him, he knows when he's behind and wants to make up for it. I'll live with the -1 "You declared war on our friend" demerit. He's next anyway.

I declared war, snagged a couple of workers right off the bat, and moved my stack towards Beshbalik. Before things really got under way, though, I had one more pleasant bit of news:



As you can see, I chose Astronomy. The Observatories will further boost research in the science cities, and trading with the other continent provided happiness and health bonuses, plus a little filthy lucre. After a diversion to grab Economics for the free Great Merchant (who settled in my current and only wealth city, Berlin), I set off on the track towards Democracy and the Statue of Liberty.

Meanwhile, the first Mongol city fell to my stack:



It wasn't as easy as it first looked. Kublai had some gold stockpiled and began upgrading Archers to Longbows and Axemen to Maces after I declared war. He's also getting Ivory from Monty, because while he may not have Keshiks, he definitely has War Elephants! Monty, unfortunately, refuses to stop trading with his bosom Buddhist buddy. He'll pay for that...

The War Elephants counter-attacked Bebshalik with some Macemen and Crossbows and slowed my advance. I had to spend several turns with the stack defending and/or reinforcing Bebshalik before it could go on its way. Plus I kept having to throw my Catapults at the opposing stacks to damage them, and after taking the city, I was low on those anyway. So even once I'd decimated Kublai's stacks, I had to wait for more Cats to arrive!

While progress at the front was a little slow, I had some good news back home. I got another Great Scientist from Frankfurt, who settled there, and then, thanks to my reassinging one specialist in Hamburg to be an Engineer, I got a Great Engineer! Woo hoo! Since I was in the middle of researching Nationhood, I saved him for a few turns, and then...



WOW. Look at what a Golden Age does to your income in a specialist economy! Now keep in mind that I'm still hardly running any merchants anywhere, and the only city with cottages is Berlin. I already have a pile of dough, and have upgraded several units, but by the time this GA is done I'll have a stockpile for gunpowder upgrades! Then I'll go a-knockin' on Monty's door...

I shouldn't get ahead of myself, though. My stack finally made it to Karakorum, then faced another delay when Kublai unleashed three Catapults on it. In typical AI fashion, though, he failed to follow up despite the presence of a few Macemen and a Crossbow in the city. After a turn of healing, the result was inevitable:



It seems as though Bebshalik and the capital were the two best-defended cities, so I'm hoping the rest of the Mongolian conquest will go more quickly. I'm also focusing military production on catapults, as I think I have more than enough of everything else. I think I should now send most of the stack southeast to take out the two remaining Mongol cities on my right flank. Then the troops can swing around to the northwest and take the last two cities.

Here's a look at the map in 1530 AD:



And while we're at it, the other continent:



And the state of relations:



I think it's likely that when I eventually go to Free Religion, Hatshepsut will become much friendlier, which is her usual state. Caesar, tough to say. But since Hatty and Julius have been at war, and Egypt and American are "Friendly", it's likely that those latter two civs will be my buddies on that continent. In terms of power, Caesar out-ranks me, and he's #2 in score. He also gave me a demerit for attacking Kublai. I'm trading with Rome at the moment, but if push comes to shove, Julie will be the odd man out.

So let's talk victory conditions. I'm building a commanding lead. I anticipate taking out Kublai, then taking on Monty's classical and medieval units with gunpowder. (I've delayed Military Tradition and Cavalry in favour of going for Democracy and the SoL partly because I don't yet have a Level 5 unit for West Point. I'm close, though.) Domination is a definite possibility, but the continents are very evenly balanced. I suspect I'll have more than enough population just on my own continent, but I'm likely to need territory on the other one for the win.

It seems likely, then, that during the war with Monty I'll have to lay the groundwork (or, more accurately, waterwork) for a naval invasion of the other continent. I'll also have to think about who my potential opponent will be. Caesar is gearing up to be my antagonist, but the other two civs will likely be weaker and, therefore, easier targets. Remember part of my aim with this ALC is to not just win, but win handily, and that means early. Hmmm...decisions, decisions...

In any case, here's the save and I look forward to your comments. Pigswill, I hope this is close enough to 1500 for you to do a meaningful comparison, as you indicated you wanted to do.

Wow... I have no qualms with the game plan. I was going to say a bit of advice about the next 2 techs, but then i saw you already on that beeline. Great minds think alike? Or, better yet, SoL anyone? w/ merchantalism, and 2 base scientists thats 4 scientists per city, plus w/ observatories coming up... Yayz.

you did ask a question as to the long term victory... I would say domination, and yes, you need land from the other continent. However, one of MY biggest flaws is acting a bit too much like the AI - playing for growth and best advantage rather than a specific win strategy(I win a lot of time/domination, on a side note, any tips from you more flexible people?) So i'm probably not a good judge but -

Cultural is out - obviously
Space race is out - the advantage of your specialists are going to start dwindling down. Late game techs are very expensive, and to get more beakers, you need to expand, which means going to the other continant anyway...
Conquest is out - domination would come first and easier
Time is out - see space race

That leaves domination. build up a raw military (all this is talking about after you have continent unified and infastructured up) and THEN decide who to attack. find how much more % land you need and act accordingly, counting in the respective military might of the other continant. If one civ will do, go to the weakest one. If either the largest civ or the two smaller civs will do, then go for the weaker between the large civ and the combined military of the two smaller civs. If you need 2 civs, go w/ the 2 weaker.