ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

O well, thought he had some error about the Mechanics (that rushing at start gave you less....like with pop/gold rushing) my apologies VoU, looks like I didn't read your post in detail enough

In any case, converting to a Cottage Economy should never be done past the Renaissance

What needs to be converted to is a Hammer Economy. All tiles (and hence citizens) producing Hammers, except for those already producing gold

The fact is that even with a full Cottage Economy Civics, the SP Workshop beats everything but a fully developed Town for Hammers.

I'd say start pumping out Panzers to Hit JC while researching Radio (For Happiness and Bombers) and Communism (For State Property=+Production and Kremlin)

other Techs,
Medicine... not necessary if you stop most cities growing (and all it costs is food)
Artillery... only good for letting you upgrade what you have, Bombers are better (and you can use the Cannons/Destroyers you have for defense stripping in the mena time, collateral Damage is unneccessary, an Unupgraded Panzer has equal odds to a fortified CG 3 Rifleman.)
Rocketry... only good for upgrading Cavalry
Plastics...Might be nice, but only if you have an Engineer pop

For Happiness and Health, Trade for Resources, and build the buildings you already Can build for those as needed with wonderful glorious Hammers.
 
Originally posted by Dr Elmer Jiggle
You're not going to fight 51 land battles with no losses, especially if many of your attackers have non-optimal promotions like city raider. Even with help from collateral damage, you'll take some casualties.

In an even-era fight, I'd agree with you. But since the screenshots show Infantrymen taking the last of the Aztec cities, and Caesar shipping across pre-Gunpowder units, I think it's more of a question of whether Sisiutil has enough units to take down each landing party (I'm guessing that there might be the opportunity to get a little bit of rest in-between landing parties). This would, indeed, delay the invasion of Roman territory, but it seems (though Germany could not know this at the time) that the Kaiser will face tougher troops in the Roman homelands no matter what.

@Sisiutil: Any chane you've got a save from the turn after Caesar declares war? I noticed that you didn't post one, and I'd be interested to try playing out the invasion on land.
 
pax said:
@Sisiutil: Any chane you've got a save from the turn after Caesar declares war? I noticed that you didn't post one, and I'd be interested to try playing out the invasion on land.
No, I'm afraid not, sorry about that.
 
My shadow game is running behind your game at the moment so I'll wait to get to 1870 for a comparative post. On the other hand my warmongering is ahead of you.
 
If you have yopur Panzers, then just stomp Ceaser into a Grease spot and get it over with...
 
the more i think about it, the more i like unclejj's solution
- you can get more gold with less culture sliding
- then you can get more culture for more cities with high culture sliding = all the land you need.

Maybe you can pillage a bit of JC's land or just take his best production city, to avoid a fast reconstruction of his troops?
 
cabert said:
the more i think about it, the more i like unclejj's solution
- you can get more gold with less culture sliding
- then you can get more culture for more cities with high culture sliding = all the land you need.

Maybe you can pillage a bit of JC's land or just take his best production city, to avoid a fast reconstruction of his troops?

Thanks :) My suggestion was intended to make the end game fast and efficient. The way you use your economy in the last 20 turns is very differnt from other parts of the game. If you use the culture slider aggressively you can reduce the number of turns taken to get the land area needed for domination ... and hence improve the score. Using artists and Free Speech helps that land grabbing by culture as well. So conquer Caesars, then Hatty's cities (to remove their culture) and crank up the German culture ... bratwurst, sauerkraut and beers... lots of ice cold beer, that'll get the Romans and Eygytians on our side :beer:
 
While we're waiting for Sisiutil's final turnset:

UncleJJ said:
crank up the German culture ... bratwurst, sauerkraut and beers... lots of ice cold beer, that'll get the Romans and Eygytians on our side :beer:

Oddly enough, the Wikipedia article on Culture of Germany does feature bratwurst and beer. :lol:
 
Financial/Demographic Comparision 1870.

Sisiutil's Farm: Beakers 1301, Gold 974, Expenses 528, Hammers 750, Pop 45,153, Army 1627. Techs: Fascism.

Pigswill's Cottage (70%research): Beakers 1806, Gold 865, Expenses 565, Hammers 581, Pop 51,872 Army 1476. Techs: Communism, Artillery.

Pigswill's Cottage (60%research): Beakers 1556, Gold 1096 (rest same of course).

On average cottage 370 beakers/turn ahead.
 
Which is true. I haven't got round to building factories (next job) and I could probably do with a few less farms and a few more workshops.
Edit: On the other hand a closer look at my game and Sisiutil's game says I ain't going to make up the production gap even with factories everywhere. Statue of Liberty makes a difference (one to remember for the future) and generally Sisiutil's been playing better than me.
 
Am I correct that this is the first comparison where your cottage economy has been significantly ahead on research? If so, that lends more support to the argument that this is about the time where a switch would have been useful.
 
Round 10, Part 1: War with Caesar Continued (to 1920 AD)

Before I get into this, the final round, I wanted to quickly address a couple of previous posts.

First off, Pax, I was incorrect. I checked and found an auto-saved game with Caesar's loaded ships just off my coast. It is attached to this post, at the very bottom. I would be very interested to hear how things go if you let Rome's troops land and fight them off on your own territory. (The last round took a long time to finish and I'm too tapped out to try that myself.)

Pigswill, for the purpose of comparison, keep in mind that my economy in 1870 is taking a hit from two other civs' adoption of Emancipation. I'm not saying that isn't likely in most games, far from it, but I've had other games where I reach that date and I'm the only one running Emancipation. My take here is that the strength of the specialist economy in the late game is a bit of a crap shoot. In some ways it's a moot point anyway, since I'm gearing up to abandon the civics (Caste System, Mercantilism) that made the SE so strong. But we can discuss this more in the post-mortem.

Anyway, on to the first part of the round!

You have to give Caesar some credit. The phrase "I give up" just does not seem to be in this guy's vocabulary:

ALCFred1934ADa01.jpg


You have to wonder how weak and tempting his cities must appear to his neighbours. Then again, when I showed up on his continent, he had Grenadiers and Riflemen. I've noticed sometimes that the AI will attack with not its most recent units, but often its older and obsolete ones, seemingly relying on numbers rather than superior technology.

Well, superior technology goes a long way, Julie:

ALCFred1934ADa02.jpg


As you can see, I was researching Communism. Once it completed, I made a significant civics change--and, it turns out, my last one in a game that likely saw too many civics changes for a non-spiritual civ.

ALCFred1934ADa03.jpg


The culture slider was only at 10%, but I was able to drop it to 0% thanks to all the relieved, happy, and newly-emancipated citizens. But what with the switch from Representation to Universal Suffrage taking away my research bonus, Caste System to Emancipation paring away all my scientists, and Mercantilism to State Property depriving me of one of my two free specialists...well, my research rate went into the tank, as expected. I went from researching Medicine in 4 turns to finishing it in 18, even after adjusting my specialists as best I could.

However, I must acknowledge that since I was anticipating a permanent war footing for the remainder of the game, I did not bother with science buildings in many of the towns that lacked them. So with a little more pre-planning, I could have had a better post-Caste System science rate than I did.

On the other hand, I was also shifting emphasis to production, with workers hastily replacing farms with watermills and workshops. So I was more likely to run Engineers or even Priests than Scientists, wherever I had the choice. I anticipated that and it was another reason I decided to forgo science multipliers. +25% of nothin' is still nothin', after all.

But one turn after I came out of anarchy, production powerhouse Karakorum finished a wonder that would make the change to Universal Suffrage even more worthwhile:

ALCFred1934ADa04.jpg


With a civ-wide discount firmly in place and all that gold burning a hole in my virtual pocket, I turned shopaholic and started rush-buying like there was no tomorrow. Military units were completing very quickly in most cities (1-4 turns), so I spent most of it on buildings, especially in the newer cities. The cities near the American and Egyptian junk towns got tons of cultural buildings in order to flip tiles, if not the cities themselves. And, of course, I built lots of airports for air-dropping troops.

And I produced two more great people, both of them Engineers! One of them went to Persepolis, the nearest city to Los Angeles:

ALCFred1934ADa05.jpg


The other went to Karakorum to help finish the Eiffel Tower. The city could have done it in 7 turns on its own, but as I wanted the junk cities to flip if possible, I figured the sooner my cities got a +50% culture boost, the better.

Meanwhile, I loaded up several transports and sent them west to Roman territory. I unloaded a mega-stack and captured my first city on the other continent:

ALCFred1934ADa06.jpg


Hmmm, well, I could see that 3 or 4 tiles just wasn't going to earn me much towards a domination win. According to the victory conditions screen, I needed in excess of another 10% of the planet's land mass to win. Even flipping those junk cities on my continent wasn't going to help much. I was going to have to take a LOT of territory on the other contient. So I did not end the war with Caesar at this point, especially since, thanks to the civics change, war weariness was manageable. Instead, a few turns later, I split my stack in three and took the equivalent number of cities:

ALCFred1934ADa07.jpg


ALCFred1934ADa08.jpg


ALCFred1934ADa09.jpg


Yes, I smartened up and was building Marines with Combat I and Pinch (Combat II as well, from West Point city Cologne). It was much faster and more efficient to move the troops by water than land. And the accompanying Destroyers provided the equivalent of defensive terrain the whole way.

Now I noticed that Egypt posessed an oil well. One oil well. And rightfully within Arretium's fat cross, too. And what was Hatty busy researching? Flight. Bad news for the Luftwaffe if she had a bunch of Fighters lying in wait for my Bombers. It cost me a couple of spies and diplomatic demerits, but I was eventually able to sabotage her well:

ALCFred1934ADa10.jpg


I suppose I could have waited until I took it, but Hatty was 1 turn away from finishing research on Flight, and I wanted a few turns' grace to get a few more units in place (especially Marines to attack all those coastal cities of hers).

With Rome severely crippled and war weariness mounting at home, it was high time to bury the hatchet with Caesar. Keeping in mind earlier advice on the AI's willingness to part with an isolated city, I decided to ask for one:

ALCFred1934ADa11.jpg


And I got it! Heliopolis was in deep trouble, completely surrounded by Egyptian cultural tiles. However, I could see that once I took Pi-Ramesses, it would probably claim several tiles to its east. In addition, a gifted city does not go through revolt, unlike a captured one, so I was able to build an airport there immediately and drop scads of troops into the heart of Egyptian territory. Hatty was even nice enough to build railroads linking Heliopolis and Arretium to Pi-Ramesses, and she had several workers toiling away, as busy as blissfully-unsuspecting bees, all within Panzer's reach of Heliopolis. Heh heh heh...

Sweetheart, it's been a slice, but...the honeymoon's over.

ALCFred1934ADa12.jpg


To be continued...

(As promised, Pax, here is the auto-save from when Caesar was about to invade Germany.)
 
Yes; creeping ahead probably in the mid 1800s; discovering and switching civics makes a big difference. As I think I posted earlier I am aware that I haven't been playing well but more of that in the post-mortem report after Sisiutil's won. Its certainly not a spoiler to say I've been focussing more on warfare than economic managementwhich makes it less than an ideal comparision.
 
Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
Am I correct that this is the first comparison where your cottage economy has been significantly ahead on research? If so, that lends more support to the argument that this is about the time where a switch would have been useful.

I would argue that it supports not trying to make a switch, since at this stage the game is basically over.
 
Round 10, Part 2: War with Hatshepsut (to 1934 AD)

War was declared, the Bombers were fully fueled, the troops were loaded aboard the transports, and the first target was within sight. The ships and Bombers removed Pi-Ramesses' defenses, then the Bombers weakened the city's defenders. The Marines carried the day, attacking from the ships with no amphibious assault penalty.

ALCFred1934ADb01.jpg


ALCFred1934ADb02.jpg


Meanwhile, back home, I was sick and tired of waiting for Egypt's junk city to flip.

ALCFred1934ADb03.jpg


ALCFred1934ADb04.jpg


Oh, a sidebar on my research. In the the first part of the round, you may have noticed that Medicine had 8 turns to go in 1912, but in 1920, you can see that I'm researching Artillery. What gives? Well, every turn, I kept pushing the science slider from 0% to 100%. Once I got to the point where I could finish Medicine in one turn by doing that (it happened when I had 5 turns to go otherwise), I chose to do so. I was stagnating growth in several cities, and had even avoided building airports and factories there to avoid unhealthiness, so building hospitals would free me from that. If worse came to worst, I could even change civics to Envoronmentalism. Fortunately, that never became necessary.

Now, I had over a dozen Bombers, and once they had done all the damage they could to Pi-Ramesses' defenders, I had them pummel the units in all the other Egyptian cities they could reach. I was hoping to weaken or even deter Hatty's counter-attack. In spite of this, she came back at me ferociously at the start of the next round.

ALCFred1934ADb05.jpg


She threw almost everything she had at my units in that city: Cannons first of all, which did a shocking amount of collateral damage, then Cavalry and Grenadiers (interesting--the AI prefers to defend with Riflemen and attack with Grenadiers). It took so long to play out that I actually got up, fetched myself a drink, and came back to the computer just in time to see the attack end.

I lost several Marines (including a few of my best West Point-produced Combat II/Pinch units), some Infantry, and even a Panzer or two. But the city held! I had, fortunately, unloaded every unit that could do any sort of defense from the ships the turn before, leaving only City Raider units aboard. This is just something I always do when taking the first city from a new, fresh opponent, and this experience just confirms it as a wise tactic. None of my numerous city defenders were fortified, hence the heavy casualty rate, but they won the day. Hatty did manage to slow me down, though, as the surviving units needed several turns to heal; some of those poor Marines were down to 1-2% strength! I guess I'll have to write a lot of letters to the families... Oh, wait, I don't! One of the many benefits of being a virtual Commander-in-Chief.

Meanwhile, it looked like turning Persepolis into a cultural powerhouse was finally paying off:

ALCFred1934ADb06.jpg


I really didn't want to go to war with Roosevelt. Technically, Hatty was more advanced, but militarily, Roosevelt was ahead of her. You can see that he had Assembly Line for Infantry at this point (within a few turns, Hatty had bee-lined to it as well). Well, America also had Industrialism for Tanks and SEALs, Flight for Fighters, and Rocketry for SAM Infantry as well, as my Spies running around the other continent revealed. In some ways I guess it's disappointing, as the Panzers' unique advantage is versus other armoured units. But, as the AI knows, it's easier to win by going after the low-hanging fruit.

Then again, Roosevelt was working on the Apollo Program. If his space race pursuit had begun to outpace my domination attempt, I might have been left with no choice but to attack him.

My troops continued to take Egyptian cities, working their way along the coast, progressing northwest to the continent's tip, then turning south:

ALCFred1934ADb07.jpg


(It's been awhile since I had to fight Infantry units. They do this nutty backflip when they die! Unrealistic, but very entertaining.)

I also had to send a stack inland as well, since not all of Egypt's cities were coastal. These long-established cities were going to take several turns (8-12, most of them) to come out of revolt, so I saw no sense in stopping.

But it was hard work. An aside: as much as I love Civ IV, one of my few complaints about it is the tedious micro-management required when waging a late-game war, because of the need to have a variety of units, and large numbers of them. The interface does not lend itself to this. The pop-up display on the left has that dreaded and useless elipsis, while the icon display at the bottom middle requires endless scrolling.

What would be better, I think, is a unit management window, rather like the city advisor screen, but larger. It would display every unit on one tile and their details. It would allow you to scroll through the list of units, sort, group, and select them, and issue orders. Wouldn't that be easier? As it was, I had to take special care even when loading units onto transports; making sure a transport only carried one type of unit made working with them a little easier.

Oh well, back to the game.

Now, I had positioned a Flanking/Sentry-promoted Submarine (my favourite promotions for those stealthy units) just outside of Byblos. One of my Spies had revealed that Hatty had a few Destroyers, Transports, and several units there, all in a position to launch against the German home continent. Such an attack was a legitimate concern of mine, since although I had the gold for quick upgrades, most of my cities were still weakly defended, the bulk of my forces being overseas and all. So I kept pumping out nautical units as well, and positioned them in defensive positions along both of Germany's coasts.

Sure enough, Hatty decided to do something proactive with those units rather than just leaving them waiting to be killed:

ALCFred1934ADb08.jpg


Heh heh, yes, once the Sub discovered that the ships had flown the coop, I sent a stack of my increasingly-idle bombers back home. The Sub and a spare Battleship kept pace with the Egyptian fleet so I knew where they were. On the next turn, Hatty's ships came within range of my Bombers. The Destroyers shot a couple of planes down, but the rest did some damage. The Battleships did the rest. Well, almost. I let that intrepid and invaluable little Sub issue the coup de grace to the last Transport; I figured it had earned the honour.

Also close to home, in 1931, Persepolis' culture-pumping achieved its goal:

ALCFred1934ADb09.jpg


My first build there was a workboat. That's right, all that time, and Roosevelt had still not managed to work that fish tile. Yeesh.

Understandably, though, I was getting a little impatient for the win. I know some of you must be wondering why I didn't push the culture slider up. Well, I was expanding borders in my captured cities through rush-buying cultural buildings and running Artist specialists instead. Most of them had quickly achieved the 100-culture point mark, and the next border pop (500) would take some time. Furthermore, most of those cities were not making any gains in claiming additional tiles from longer-established Rome or America. My best bet was the captured Egyptian cities, and those needed time to come out of revolt. Raising the slider would not help with that, and those cities would need rush-bought cultural buildings before the slider would do much good. So culture remained at 0%, and the treasury continued to grow.

Admittedly, my experience in the Vicky ALC game may have played a part here. You may recall that was a late cultural win, achieved with barely any use of the cultural slider, but with specialists instead. I was applying similary tactics towards my domination win this time.

Here's how things looked in 1931:

ALCFred1934ADb10.jpg


Tantilizingly close, but not quite there. In the absence of victory, I pressed on until Egypt was no more.

ALCFred1934ADb11.jpg


On the very next turn, Giza came out of revolt and its borders expanded to the full fat cross immediately. That was enough:

ALCFred1934ADb12.jpg


VICTORY!!

Cue the final movement of Beethoven's 9th:

Freude, schöner Götterfunken
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!


On to the post-mortem!
 
Post-Mortem

First off, a few screenshots of the end-of-game graphs and such.

The city that achieved the win, Giza:

ALCFredPM02.jpg


And the final victory conditions screen:

ALCFredPM01.jpg


Score graph, entire game:

ALCFredPM03.jpg


GNP (gold), entire game (lots of ups and downs!):

ALCFredPM04.jpg


Mft. Goods (Production), entire game. You can easily tell where my Taj Mahal-inspired Golden Age occurred, as well as where I changed away from Caste System and Mercantilism.

ALCFredPM05.jpg


Power, entire game:

ALCFredPM06.jpg


And power for the last 50 turns:

ALCFredPM07.jpg


Yes, I probably could have taken on Roosevelt. But trust me, with all the micro-management of units required just to take on the more-backwards Caesar and Hatty, there was no way I wanted to get into an armour-based slugfest with America.

Demographics. Check it out, even with the culture slider at 0%, I've still got the top approval rate. It probably helps that Egypt and the attendant war weariness vanished a turn or so prior to this.

ALCFredPM08.jpg


The top 5 cities:

ALCFredPM09.jpg


Roosevelt was working on the Three Gorges Dam, too, but never finished it.

Statistics:

ALCFredPM10.jpg


Nearly 24 hours to play this game! One of my longest in a long time. There are two definite reasons: first, the micro-management of citizens, tiles, and specialists that the SE required; and second, the late-game war micro-management I was complaining about.

And my score:

ALCFredPM11.jpg


Not too shabby, but we've certainly seen that the scoring calculators favour domination wins above all others. In fact, this is the second highest ALC win, only exceeded by that remarkable Hatty game (domination win in 1846, score: 44777). And since this was my very first attempt to run a specialist economy, I think I did rather well (and I am the first to admit that's because of all the wonderful help I got, so thank you to everyone).

I'll leave my thoughts on the game specifics to another post, as it is likely to take awhile to write, and I want to get the above stats posted ASAP.

Oh, and I forgot to include the last saved game file at the end of the round, so here it is.
 
Some of my thoughts on a few specific features of this ALC game:

1. Metal Casting/Pyramids Gambit

This was very exacting, but a lot of fun, and very satisfying to pull off. I've been forgoing the Pyramids in most of my games because of the AI beating me to them; it was, therefore, exciting to come across a strategy that practically guaranteed success in building them. While Eggman did spell out an exact procedure, I found in a couple of parallel games as other leaders that all you really need to follow are some basic guidelines (see Eggman's posts early in the thread for the specifics):

1) a strict research path
2) a strict build order
3) the 3/3/3 rule for the 2nd city
4) prioritizing roads and pre-chopping on forest tiles, especially around the 2nd (forge) city
5) getting that forge built within 6 turns maximum after the Oracle is complete.

The main provision of this gambit is that you pretty much have to be playing as a Philosophical leader. It would be possible, of course, to pull it off without the +100% Great Person production, but also far riskier. You don't necessarily have to be militarily weak until the Pyramids are built, either. I was able to build Chariots for early protection. In a parallel game as Mao, I had copper nearby and was able to build Axemen.

All in all, a very worthwhile gambit and one I will definitely be trying again.

------------------------------

2. Specialist Economy

This was quite an eye-opener. Ever since I came to this board, the message I've heard over and over again is that the secret to success in Civ IV is cottage spam. How refreshing to see that there is a viable alternative. Even with this being my first attempt at the SE, and my making a few sub-optimal decisions (more on those shortly), it still carried me to as dominant a victory as I could have achieved with a cottage economy.

Do I think it's superior to a cottage economy? Based on this one game with it, not necessarily, but perhaps with experience and refinement I could become convinced.

I will say that one advantage I think the CE has over the SE is flexibility. Cottage spam works on almost every map and for almost every leader, and regardless of all but the lousiest starting conditions and without requireing any wonders. The success of the SE seems to have a few additional pre-requisites: the Pyramids for early Representation; for achieving that, a Philosophical leader; terrain that lends itself to heavy food production. Also, the SE requires a lot more micro-management. As a result, I don't recommend it for beginners.

To illustrate my points: in the two or three parallel games I played, I pulled off the MC/Pyramids gambit, but then found myself in trouble because of the map. In each case I found myself on maps with lots of plains, hills, and some grassland, separated from other civs by desert (with few or no floodplains) or jungle. I therefore lacked a really good location for a science city. Many people pointed out that Frankfurt was not an ideal choice for this in this game, but in my parallel games, it would have been considered a science powerhouse! And with the MC/P gambit leaving me behind militarily, I wasn't going to be grabbing a good science city in time to get the Great Library built. So with the SE, my impression so far is that some of its success depends on luck; more so, I think, than with a cottage economy.

But if you get that luck, which I did in this game, the SE is very powerful. And as someone else pointed out, you can always attempt to go the SE route, and if game events or conditions go against you, punt and go with a cottage economy.

With the importance of specialists and therefore settled Great People, once again, a Philosophical leader is the best choice, I think, for the SE. There's an obvious synergy there with the MC/P gambit, as I mentioned. Frederick is a very strong choice for both strategies, as his Creative trait means you can forgo Stonehenge completely and focus on the two essential early wonders, and Creative is very good for warmongering to recover territory quickly. As for the other vanilla civ philosophical leaders, here's my take:

Saladin: Probably right up there with Frederick, maybe even better. Taking complete advantage of the Pyramids doesn't just mean using one civic ahead of its time, but using several of them. Saladin's Spiritual trait would allow you to easily change between Representation most of the time for research, US for some rush-buying, and Police State when war weariness gets bad. Ditto for the other civics, Slavery/Caste System in particular. He also starts with two of the techs on the MC/P gambit's list, cheap temples are also handy for managing WW, and his starting techs are on the MC/P path. He doesn't have the greatest UU, but I think his many other strengths make up for that. I'm anxious to try out Saladin with the MC/P and SE and see how it goes.

Mao: Weaker, I think. The real strength of the Organized trait, I've long argued, is cheap courthouses. The best way to take advantage of them is an early war. If you pursue the MC/P gambit, you're not going to be warring early. Also, with all the gold you should be generating, cheap civics are not going to be that noticeable a benefit. Still, Mao starts with two techs that are likely to be very useful for the MC/P gambit and he has a decent mid-game UU which the MC slingshot will make available earlier.

Elizabeth: You could still use the MC/P gambit with Elizabeth, but a specialist economy? Fuggedaboudit. Good Queen Bess is Financial, and with the SE, you're just not taking advantage of that trait. Go CE with Liz.

Alexander: Alex will be the leader for the next ALC, so it may be interesting to try the SE again and refine it. As the SE is ideal for warmongering, and Alex is Aggressive, this sounds like a match made in heaven. Unfortunately, neither of his starting techs are needed for the MC/P gambit, putting him at a bit of a disadvantage in that regard. Better hope that his initial Scout can get to more goody huts and pop some techs, or you've got an uphill battle.

Peter: Ah, now this leader would really lend himself to UncleJJ's argument in favour of Slavery and the whip over Caste System in the SE. Whipping, as we saw in the Vicky ALC game, is most powerful in the hands of an Expansive leader thanks to those cheap granaries. Even better, if you luck out with the map, you can plunk down your science city in the midst of as many floodplains as you can find without having to worry about health problems for a long, long time. And how can you not love Cossacks? Since the SE lends itself to rushing early and mid-game techs, you could have the Russian UU very early.

------------------------------

3. Mistakes

Or maybe they should be better termed, "sub-optimal decisions", as I still won handily in spite of them.

We could argue over many things, but in hindsight, I can see two main decisions I made, and had pointed out, that I think could have made a significant difference in the game had I done things differently.

a) Science City

Yep, sure enough, Hamburg was able to run more science specialists thanks to those floodplains. It also grew faster, again allowing it to run more specialists. Then again, with the National Epic there, I probably would have produced more Great Engineers than I did and fewer Great Scientists. Would I have lost much research with fewer settled GS? The extra science specialists would have probably made up for them. So, lesson learned: in the SE, the early city capable of producing the most food becomes the science city and GP farm. Look for flood plains!

b) Slavery versus Caste System

I think UncleJJ's point about building more infrastructure via the whip was correct. I know many people pointed out that in a strict SE each city should completely specialize, so no markets in science cities. I know some of you pointed out that +25% commerce from a Market in a city producing 4-12 commerce per turn doesn't amount to that much. In response, I would point out that the resulting gold adds up, that a little more gold goes a long way in the early and mid-game, and that the gold increases as the city's population grows.

But even more than that, Markets (and Forges, for that matter) have an important additional benefit: happiness. I had to run the culture slider quite high during my wars with Cyrus and especially Kublai because of unhappiness, which significantly decreased the GPT. Having more happy buildings in place would have lessened the need for that and given me a much better economy. I was focused on military production instead, but with proper use of the whip, I could have used its overflow for units, as I did in the Vicky ALC.

------------------------------

Anyway, that's my take, and as usual, I'll be interested to hear yours. Next up, as I said, is Alexander, but I won't start that game for awhile--next weekend at the earliest. After micro-managing all those Panzers, I need a break!
 
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