FFH lore

Hi i was just wondering if their is any lore related to this Mod other than what i have managed to garner from the civipedia regarding the races and religions ect. Since this mod has intrested me in playing civ 4 again ( in a big way ) i was looking at making some senarios and maps for my self and would like things to be as close to FFH lore as possible. ie dark elfs not living in the forest while wood elfs are up in the wind swept tundra.

Don't know if it would be on your to do list since you are putting in so much effort development wise but some links to the lore you plan to use or are using in developing this mod would be very much appreciated. As it would help me work out some battle feild based senarios and world maps i have floating around in my head


Thanks in advance any ways, and awesome mod can't belive how much effort has gone into this it really shows.

sypher_aka said:

Hi i was just wondering if their is any lore related to this Mod other than what i have managed to garner from the civipedia regarding the races and religions ect. Since this mod has intrested me in playing civ 4 again ( in a big way ) i was looking at making some senarios and maps for my self and would like things to be as close to FFH lore as possible. ie dark elfs not living in the forest while wood elfs are up in the wind swept tundra.

Don't know if it would be on your to do list since you are putting in so much effort development wise but some links to the lore you plan to use or are using in developing this mod would be very much appreciated. As it would help me work out some battle feild based senarios and world maps i have floating around in my head


Thanks in advance any ways, and awesome mod can't belive how much effort has gone into this it really shows.

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Unfortunatly not. A lot of the overall world flavor is taken from a D&D cmapaing I ran for 17 years or so. You can find a basic world history attached to this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3458409&postcount=2). Everything beyond that we have created. Wilboman and Corlindale do a ton of writing for the mod without the benifit of any detailed history and literraly create the world as we go.

We don't want to pattern the world after a known one, we want to create a new world. In a few cases where I didn't think the "real" (meaning the D&D backstory) backstory of an object or character was that interesting I asked Wilboman or Corlindale to write something completly new. And a lot of the things are completly new. Octopus Overlords never existed in my D&D game, Mahala is the name of my wifes WoW character, Acheron the Red Dragon and Eurabatres the Gold Dragon never existed (though Abashi the Black Dragon did).

So check out the history extract, hopefully it will give you enough of a background to work with. Outside of that be creative, I love seeing new faces and new stories around the characters I've known for years.

I must say (and my mouth grows bigger everytime I use it),

concerning the lore, it would be nice to put the writing team to the task of getting more background into the pedia. I don't know about the age of magic or the age of ice or the age of silly hats and I can think up of some reasons not to look it up on a forum while I'm playing the game.
If nobody wants to do it, I for sure do volunteer.

Who are the leaders, who are the civilizations? The vanilla pedia puts everything in a historical context. Of course you could say: ffh2 is a mod about making a new story, not replaying an old one. Fine, but then tell me more about what happened before. Where do all the civs come from and why are they suddenly together?
Why are there three ljos alfar leaders? In vanilla different leaders represent different eras in a civ's existence but if history is not yet written... ?

Everything may seem perfectly clear to somebody into the whole thing from the beginning but I've always felt that I am entering a play halfway to the end, where I just take charge of a faction without knowing all there is to know.

By the way, your octopus overlords remind me of the cthulu mythos, what with the asylum and how cthulu calls to the mad people and all. Besides, he lives (or sleeps -that is not dead which can eternal lie) under the sea and has tentacles.

great mod, I should put it in my sig

Joosty said:

I must say (and my mouth grows bigger everytime I use it),

concerning the lore, it would be nice to put the writing team to the task of getting more background into the pedia. I don't know about the age of magic or the age of ice or the age of silly hats and I can think up of some reasons not to look it up on a forum while I'm playing the game.
If nobody wants to do it, I for sure do volunteer.

Who are the leaders, who are the civilizations? The vanilla pedia puts everything in a historical context. Of course you could say: ffh2 is a mod about making a new story, not replaying an old one. Fine, but then tell me more about what happened before. Where do all the civs come from and why are they suddenly together?
Why are there three ljos alfar leaders? In vanilla different leaders represent different eras in a civ's existence but if history is not yet written... ?

Everything may seem perfectly clear to somebody into the whole thing from the beginning but I've always felt that I am entering a play halfway to the end, where I just take charge of a faction without knowing all there is to know.

By the way, your octopus overlords remind me of the cthulu mythos, what with the asylum and how cthulu calls to the mad people and all. Besides, he lives (or sleeps -that is not dead which can eternal lie) under the sea and has tentacles.

great mod, I should put it in my sig

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The writing team adds a ton of history in every new version. To use your suggestion of the Ljosalfar, Thessa and Arendel both got new pedia entries in 0.15. There are still gaps but they are being filled as quickly as we are able.

It is important to me that the leaders appear as interesting and three dimensional fantasy characters. I dont want a recreation of popular fantasy characters, I dont want bland "good guy" and "bad guy" archetypes. So we put a lot of effort into the flavor of our leaders. Hopefully that shows through.

And the Octopus Overlords is an interesting mix. I had an encyclopedia of the cuthulu mythos that I used as a source book for my d&d campaign ("used as a source book" is writer talk for "stole ideas from"). The actual religion was created in honor of my favorite website (which is where the name came from). I do like the religion a lot but if it wasn't for the webstie I probably would have given it a more stylish name.

In the D&D game Danalin (the god of the water) was asleep and one of the most powerful gods (during the Age of Rebirth) because he inherited dominence of the winter sphere after Mulcarn died. Because he was asleep his religion was accustomed to surreal and unusual visions and powers.

In the FfH this was changed to having a race of aquatic demons "whispering" into Danalins ears. They are giving him nightmares, which is why his powers are manifesting in such a dark fashion. The demons are the "Overlords", and through their influence on Danalin they are able to exert power similar to gods.

Some stuff I've been wondering about.

What's the relation between Peace and Chaos, and between Trust and Shadow? And while it makes sense for "evil" Agares to be the Angel of Hope if one seems him as a Prometheus-like figure, I can't see the obvious relation between Hope and Entropy.

Edit: Woops never mind. I just noticed the Angels have different functions in the design religion thread as compared to the history extract.

M@ni@c said:

Some stuff I've been wondering about.

What's the relation between Peace and Chaos, and between Trust and Shadow? And while it makes sense for "evil" Agares to be the Angel of Hope if one seems him as a Prometheus-like figure, I can't see the obvious relation between Hope and Entropy.

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[tab]The evil angels were origionally assigned providence over a certain aspect of creation. As part of their fall they have corrupted that aspect.

[tab]So:

[tab]Camulos, the Angel responsible for Peace is instead the angel of War. And because the providence of Peace is abandoned/corrupted creation will never have it.

[tab]Aeron, the Angel responsible for Strength is instead the angel of Hatred (better expressed as physical rage, that which fuels the werewolves). And humanity will forever suffer with weakness because that divine perfect strength is gone.

[tab]Ceridwen was called the angel of stars and was responsible for the bindings between the different worlds. Her role is much the same but her motivation has changed to opening the gates of hell and allowing them to invade into creation (Ceridwen is the patron goddess of the Sheaim and the benefactor of Tebryn and Os-Gabella).

[tab]Mammon was the angel of foresight, mostly in its mundane aspects of being able to consider the outcomes of actions and choose that which has the best outcome for eyeryone. Since falling he has corrupted this and mankind suffers for it by becoming shortsighted in its endeavors. Now he is known as the angel of Greed or Gluttony, wanting everything now with no concern for future effects or others welfare.

[tab]Esus was the angel of trust. Trust was considered so important a gift to humanity that it had divine effect. Creation was planned to be without deception. But when Esus fell he took that with him. Instead he is the angel of deception and humanity must survive without true trust.

[tab]Mulcarn was an elemental angel. Given to protecting one of the building blocks of creation, Winter. Winter was meant to be a time of rest and recovery, a slowing. After his fall he was still the angel of winter but winter became about destruction and death.

[tab]Agares was the angel of hope. It was this hope that caused him to dream of being something more than just an angel. That made him want to be a creator himself. This is what initiated the fall and the withdrawal of the one god from creation. With Agares fallen the divine gift of hope was lost to humanity. Now Agares is called the angel of the night or the angel of entropy. It may be more fitting to call him the angel of despair. He was the one that whispered to all the other angels that fell and convinced them to give up their faith, and with the fall of Bhall he continues to do so.

[tab]Bhall is one of the elemental gods given providence over fire. Before Bhalls fall (which didnt happen until the end of the age of magic) fire was a righteous force, used to ward off the unholy and a friend to man. Since Bhall's fall fire has turned against man, now it is volitile and uncontrolled, the easiest to wield for destructive magic and the tool of many demonic forces.

[tab]I hope that makes some kind of sence. Everything was built up from the starting point of the 21 angels. It may have drifted but it was the compass for design decisions in the D&D game, and in the mod (its nice to have a high level framework to work in). Its the reason we have 21 civs, and why we have the 21 spell spheres (not that all 21 are in yet).

[tab]So for example the starting point for the Calabim is that they are in Aeron's aspect. So that gives us body, hatred, strength, rage. From that we got the Calabim as living vampires, feeding on blood (strength, body), hatred lead to their flavor as being overly cruel (attitude bonus's with civs that treat their people poorly). Aeron's aspect wouldn't work well for undead so the vampires in FfH became living creatures that feed on blood.

Kael said:

I hope that makes some kind of sence.

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It does. Always great to read something more about my favourite fantasy story.

I am always amazed at the depth and ingenuity of your imagination.

- Niilo

Btw, wtf is hell? The infinite plain of the raw element of fire? Or something else created by the One, Agares or Bhall? And how were demons created?

M@ni@c said:

Btw, wtf is hell? The infinite plain of the raw element of fire? Or something else created by the One, Agares or Bhall? And how were demons created?

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All of the angels have thier own "vault/heaven". When we talk about hell we are talking about Agares's vault. Origionally it was a place of darkness. A netherworld full of shadow creatures and creatures of entropy.

The following is a conversation that went on between Agares and Sucellus in hell:

[tab]It was a place so it dark it would drive the mortal mind mad.

[tab]“Why would you create a place like this? You remember as well as I the pleasures of heaven, it was place of light of beauty. I can’t believe you still don’t yearn for it as I do.”

[tab]“It is because I remember it that I created this.” Agares responded from an area somehow blacker than the rest. “I have created grand palaces, entire worlds of starlight and gold and the imperfection of them screams out to me. So fresh is my memory of heaven that I can see nothing but the flaws of everything else. Doesn’t it anger you that everything you create is lacking that basic perfection that he so easily made?”

[tab]Sucellus stood silently, in the limitless emptiness of this place Agares’s almost palatable jealousy writhed and finally settled.

[tab]Finally Agares spoke. “Why have you come here?”

[tab]“To ask a question. So long ago you had stole crystals from Heaven, you secreted them away so that you would retain the power to create.”

[tab]Agares exploded again in anger. “So that we would have the power to create! The burden I bore I did for all of us. You can create freely now, using the gift that I provided, all the while cursing me for it. Do not continue your hypocrisy here. I am your rescuer and he is your jailer, do not confuse the two.”

[tab]Again Sucellus waited. When Agares’s anger settled he continued with his question. “Then why allow the men to find them, they had remained hidden for so long. What could possibly come of it?”

[tab]“Why do you think that I had anything to do with it?”

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It remained a place of loss until the fall of Bhall. At that point she abandoned her Heaven and literally fell through creation (hitting close to the massive city of Braduk) and into Agares hell.

Now hell is split, part in darkness and creatures loyal to Agares and part in Bhalls eternal fire with her burning legions. On the border of these realms creatures of entropy and fire merge, that is where the powerful Balor were born.

When the Age of Rebirth begins Bhall still lays comatose from her fall, the few hundred years of the Age of Ice is nothing to a god. But it is her awakening and begining to act that kicks up the events in the later half of the Are of Rebirth (in the D&D game she contacted Jonas Endain first and makes him her priest, which is why he becomes such a central figure).

Incidently that city (Braduk) that Bhall landed by was dragged into hell with her. The people (who would later become the Bannor) were the residents of that city that started a quest to escape from hell. Capria was the leader of their escape and Sabathiel was an angel sent into hell to help them.

The Clan of Embers capital was built on the spot Bhall hit creation and named after the city that used to exist there (renamed "Braduk the Burning"). It is a city built around a massive hole with lava at the core. Picture a city built inside a volcano, except its not in a mountain, just a crater.

BTW Kael, the Infernal 'pedia entry doesn't show up in-game (no minor civs do). It could go here too

M@ni@c said:

And how were demons created?

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There are 2 kinds of demons. The most powerful were lesser angels in the service of the 8 angels/gods that fell. The less powerful were once mortal's whose souls have become corrupted. From the lowest Mares, to Imps (mages who have traded their soul for power), to the Sect of Flies (false prophets), to the Ruhin (betrayers).

To give you some indication of the power level the Balor are the weakest of the "true" demons (those that were never mortal).

More! MORE!!!

Here's a little tidbit I found... Luonnotar.

evanb said:

Here's a little tidbit I found... Luonnotar.

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Yeah, I used the name Luonnotar for them because she was a single creator goddess that made all of the gods after her. The Luonnotar in FfH believe that all of the gods are little more than petulant children and there is a single perfect creator god that exist above them (they are correct). So their belief is that there is a "Luonnotar" like being out there.

The Svartalfar and the Ljosalfar are the names of the evil and good elves from Norse myths. Khazad is a name I stole from tolkien, half of the name of the dwarven home. Acheron is a river that runs through hell in greek mythology and dantes inferno. Erebus itself shares the name with one of the origional greek titans, but I actually got the name from another greek reference, it was also the name of the nether region between the world and the true hell (Tauturus).

And you've been having a merry old time nicking the names of deities from all forms of Celtic/Semitic/Wiccan and other sources, I'm slowly realising: Cernunnos, Mammon, Bhall, and so on.

wilboman said:

And you've been having a merry old time nicking the names of deities from all forms of Celtic/Semitic/Wiccan and other sources, I'm slowly realising: Cernunnos, Mammon, Bhall, and so on.

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Yeap. And most of the civ names are from christian sources for the name of angelic and demonic groups (Malakim, Elohim, Mercurians, Sheaim, Balseraphs, etc).

Kael said:

The Svartalfar and the Ljosalfar are the names of the evil and good elves from Norse myths.

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Yeah, Svart = Black, Ljus = Light in swedish. Alfar is an old norse word for elves I guess, today we say Alver.

I know those names from a trilogy by Guy Gavriel Kay (fionavar tapestry)though he called them lios alfar and svart alfar. Fantasy novelists are hardly ever really original.

My big question: is all this in the pedia? Not where the stuff comes from, but what it is in ffh I mean.

Most recent build still had a lot of civs without proper entries and I noitced that entries on leaders tend to have a story rather than info on the leader. Nice, but alternative

Joosty said:

I know those names from a trilogy by Guy Gavriel Kay (fionavar tapestry)though he called them lios alfar and svart alfar. Fantasy novelists are hardly ever really original.

My big question: is all this in the pedia? Not where the stuff comes from, but what it is in ffh I mean.

Most recent build still had a lot of civs without proper entries and I noitced that entries on leaders tend to have a story rather than info on the leader. Nice, but alternative

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Yeah, the style guide (such as it is) says that civ entries are for historical information and the leader entries are for personal stories.