P666-01 Fix the Trash Game

armstrong said:
Since I'm not required to submit a game during the next turnset, I figured I'd go ahead and play a number of the games for 20 turns to see how they'd play out, and better decide which really the "best" game. I think in 20 turns there will be plenty of time for a game to differentiate themselves - in fact, I'd imagine that the next 20-40 turns are probably the most crucial to the game, so I'd think that cutting down to 20 at this point would be a good idea. :)
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that's something i did too
pretty informative, but a lot of "work"

About vote, i think it's a bad think to make it secret.
I'd like to explain why i vote for one game and not for another.
I did a very deep examination of the various games, and have some things to say about every game.

And i'd want to apologize to VuDu : like pigswill said, you're game was rather easy to build up, more so than others (i tried some afterwards). So we maybe selected your game for bad reasons!

How about next round : do we keep the 40 turns format?
 
Ok we are missing one last vote, should i go ahead and post the game now or allow the last vote to be cast?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Edit: Ok after looking back, the missing vote hasn't posted within the last several pages, soooo

*drumroll*

best game goes to *opens envelope*

Congratulations Cabert :king:!!

Now, Best Kissing scene goes to....:love:

Also I attached the save game to use here, seemed hard enough wading through all the posts just to find it! Should be the right one I have so many saved files in this little folder I made just for this thread!!!
 
I'd go for 40 turns per set; not enough time to properly trash a game in 20 turns or properly rescue it either.
Even if the voting is secret there should be a public critique of the various submissions. Doesn't look like we're going to get any flaming and feedback is useful for everyone.

Might be useful to get Cam_H's view on these issues. I hope Paul666 reappears soon; after all this is his idea.
 
M.I.A.

Yeah, I would like Paul to reappear too. Maybe Mrs. Paul has finally broken his Civ-addiction?! :eek:

I wouldn't mind if William reappeared too ... I know he was going away, but he should have been back for half a week.

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Pigswill

I'm with Pigswill - 40 turns I think is the right way to go. 40 turns can allow a game to get really 'stuffed up' if someone's not playing well, whereas 20 requires nothing less than deliberate nerfing to cause any significant problems.

I don't have Civ with me, so I can't help on which year 20 or 40 turns actually finishes on. (I've seen a chart somewhere before, but previously I fortified my units and hit 'Enter' 40 times to work out the cut-off year).

Voting

I wanted a private vote because;

. Peer pressure

I didn't want anyone to suffer peer-pressure to vote for a particular game.

. 'High-brow' :lol: discussion

I'm 'all for' discussion about the submissions, but to have the four Monarch guys picking at each others' games while the Prince guys and gal remaining comparatively quiet was a point of concern to me too.

. Time

Things were dragging - a quick vote and on to Round 3 I felt was needed. Admittedly somewhat selfish, due to my RL arrangements I can't play Round 3 for several days now, whereas I would have liked a decision by Australia's Sunday-morning so I could have got my game done. It's no huge deal, but it would have been my preference. A private vote, I guessed, would be quicker than a public one.

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Petrucci

Thanks Petrucci for co-ordinating the vote for this round. If I'm the only one in favour of private voting, then I'm quite prepared to go with the group ... however wrong that choice may be. ;)

:clap: Well done all!

I thought that there were some good games and some good discussion for Round 2, despite its duration :dubious:.

Congratulations to Cabert for the :trophy2: game.
 
I pretty sure 40 turns takes us to 125 AD. I liked the Cabert game too, but I voted for Cam_H becasue of the workman like approach and the barb city location. It seemed a good set up for an attack on Kublai.
I'm 'all for' discussion about the submissions, but to have the four Monarch guys picking at each others' games while the Prince guys and gal remaining comparatively quiet was a point of concern to me too.
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I think its up to the noob/noobesses to ask questions about these discussions when needed, and apart from that we are probably just reading and learning.There was plenty to take in on that round. See you in 40 turns...
 
Cam_H said:
I wanted a private vote because;

. Peer pressure

I didn't want anyone to suffer peer-pressure to vote for a particular game.
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Yes, actually, I do think a private vote is somewhat good. Not just for peer pressure, but because it lets everyone arrive at their own conclusions. However, I would like to hear some more comments on why people chose the ones they do.

Cam_H said:
. 'High-brow' :lol: discussion

I'm 'all for' discussion about the submissions, but to have the four Monarch guys picking at each others' games while the Prince guys and gal remaining comparatively quiet was a point of concern to me too.
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Me too. That's why I decided early on not to play this round, and next round I plan to speak a lot less (and not much at all until all submissions are in.) Sorry everyone for my verbosity! :)

One reason I'd like to set a general strategy for the games is that I had a hard time evaluating them. For instance, cabert had a pretty straightforward goal - early war with elephants and cats, later expanding into maces. But some of the other goals were less clear.

The game I think I had the hardest time evaluating was Cam_H's, though ultimately skipping Oracle was a mistake I think...

I still don't know what to think about my game, but CS slingshot definitely outperformed MC in this case. :D

The game I most misjudged until I really took a look at it and played it was VuDu's. Her game was the only one that had a CS slingshot and split pigswill's city into two. That, combined with the fact that her game had more workers and military than cabert's, put her game only about two turns behind cabert's game in my trials for a fast elephant/cat rush, making it the easy #2 game. Take away a few :smoke: moves like forgetting to MM the Oracle, or converting to Confucianism, and she would have fixed her own game. :lol:

mice said:
I pretty sure 40 turns takes us to 125 AD. I liked the Cabert game too, but I voted for Cam_H becasue of the workman like approach and the barb city location. It seemed a good set up for an attack on Kublai.
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Yeah, that's what makes Cam_H's so hard to judge. He's positioned, with all the happy resources and iron, to storm Khan's land faster than anyone else. But how will that early rush play out with significantly higher casualties than the elephant/cat rush? Will the turns saved by worth all the lives lost? It's really hard to judge it without basically playing the save out itself (and for more than 20, or even 40, turns, I think.) :)

And yes, I also think 40 turns from now the year will be 125 AD.
 
I'm thinking that maybe the 'experts' (and I was the worst culprit) should not post analyses until the Noble Princes have had the opportunity to comment on the submissions for next round.
 
Cam_H said:
Things were dragging - a quick vote and on to Round 3 I felt was needed. Admittedly somewhat selfish, due to my RL arrangements I can't play Round 3 for several days now, whereas I would have liked a decision by Australia's Sunday-morning so I could have got my game done. It's no huge deal, but it would have been my preference.
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Cam_H I think that because you are runing the thread and because you have some restrictions on when you can play, you should set a time when the votes need to be in. eg. Friday 9 pm GMT , or whatever the best time standard is.

Save in by..... votes in by ......


I've played my turns . Oh dear.

The short story.

Spoiler :
I attacked Kublai,with axe, elephant,cataqpult, but became worried that he had the potential to attack Berlin from so I left a few axes near the captial. They were needed, but it meant that my stack was too small. I headed straight for Karakorm, the capital, and took it but only just. Then a mongol axe took it straight back and popped the culutre barrier up to 60%. With 2 turns to go I had only 1 sick catapult outside the city,with some axes and an elephant, and Kublai sued for peace offering Monarchy. I accepted,though I was 1 turn away from monarchy anyway. Nothing gained except now the stack is in good order to attack in 8-9 turns. Kublai doesnt have horses. He has Ivory but isnt building elephants.


The long story.
Spoiler :

Turns 1,2,3,4 finished Masonry, started on Construction for catapults and elephants. Finished libraries and temples. some whipping as I remember.

Turns 5,6,7 workers contect copper. Teching towards literature for the Greatlibrary.

Napoleaon demands gold. I give it to him.

Turn 10ish send an archer to scout Mongolia. Prophet arrives, sleep him till after Monotheism to get Theocracy.
develop the deer in Hamburg,

Turn 12 Great library begun, chopping it. Archer reveals Karakorm has 2 axe,2 archer,1 spear.. decide on this as my target (mistake??)

Turn 14 tech to metal casting for happiness/forges.400BC Christianity founded after teching Monotheism and lightbulbing the prophet. Didn't convert. Refused open borders to Napoleon.

Turn 20 Power ratings are all about the same level now.Decide to attack.
Build up axes elephants nad catapults , but leave some axes to defend Berlin/Pigswill's


Turn 30. Started teching machinery for maces

Whip the last bit of GL.

Attack Kublai with:
2 catapults 2 CRII axes 2 elephants. No spears, as no horse in Mongolia.
March past his other city to go to the capital.

A lot of barbarian action near Berlin, and Kublai sends axes to Berlin and Pigswill. I have left a few axes near these cities on hills/forests and they defend well, but it has left my attack stack too small. Im nervous and defensive and unwilling to send the axes and elephants that I build up to the attack. Should have waited 8-10 turns before attacking to put a better stack together.

Turns 31-38. Defense of homeland. Attack on Karakorm. Take it , lose it, agree to peace.Get monarchy.

Turns 39- 40. sort out the stack and heal
 
armstrong said:
The game I most misjudged until I really took a look at it and played it was VuDu's.
Click to expand...
So there's hope for me :D .

Turn Log
Spoiler :

I might be off on the turns a bit, but it should be close.

2 - Discovered masonry, selected construction for next tech.
4 - Barb seen on the horizon.
5 - Started the copper mine.
6 - Turned down Napoleon's request for open borders (per the earlier worry about him checking out our forces). Set Berlin and Pigswill City (PC) to build archers.
7 - Barb warrior crossed the border, sent an archer to head him off at the mine. Barb archer sighting west of PC.
8 - Building a road on the copper; researching alphabet; sent archer with combat 1 to head off barb archer; building elephant in PC.
9- Barb warrior eliminated; pop rushed elephant.
10 - Barb archer destroyed pig pasture; sending elephant to take him out; moved another archer toward Hamburg for barb defense; building catapult in Berlin, elephant in PC and barracks in Hamburg. Promoted an archer with guerilla 2.

11- Barb archer destroyed a road before I trampled by the elephant. Another barb archer at our border.
12 - Moved elephant toward new barb; sent workers to repair road and pig pasture.
13- Elephant stomped out the archer; built a shrine with GP; checked our power graph and set research to metal casting. We're neck and neck with Isabella, but still below Napoleon; Kublai is trailing.
14- Promoted another archer with guerilla 2. Must have been more barbs that I forgot to note. Sent two elephants to check out a barb city to the west of PC. Depending on the size, I might take it, or continue exploring while it grows to size 2, even though I'm not sure I like the location, since it doesn't catch the horses.
16- Still have enogh imporved tiles for the citizens to work in all three cities, so I sent workers to extend the road toward Kublai; parked an elephant by size 1 barb city to get some xp from attacking archers while the city grows to size 2; sent second elephant to explore North.
17- Barracks finished in Hamburg, started building units.
18- Researching machinery; we're now leading in power. Pop rushed a forge in Hamburg and added forget to the top of the list in the other cities.
19- Barb city now size 2, so attacked with the elephant; extending road toward Isabella.
20- Took control of Bantu; barb archer spotted to the south.

21- Moved Berlin's archer to the south silver mine to head off barb; building an axeman in PC for defense in Bantu. Confucianism spread to Bantu and France - Napoleon converted.
22- Barb archer bit the dust; spotted a barb axeman - moved an elephant to head him off.
23- Building a worker in Bantu. Later decided I should have built a granary first, but started it after the worker.
24- Researched polytheism, then literature; started building macemen.

25-40 Too involved in playing to note specifics :mischief:. Generally built units, researched ironworking, fishing, sailing, currently on compass (to go along with Pigswill's path for later trading). This is an area where I sometimes lose focus on what tech path to take - I reach my first goal and then get distracted off my next goal (or don't make a next goal). Explored Kublai's land with elephants to see what the competition has - mostly archers and a few spears.


Future
Spoiler :

Still need to build the Great Library. I didn't feel the need for courthouses yet since we're still at 90% research. Sent most units to PC to prepare for the war, but kept a couple in Berlin. I would send those few to raze Old Sarai since it's mostly tundra while the majority of units headed East for a better city.

This is probably the most elephants I've ever built (7 so far). I've never had to use them for my main attack force, and I'm usually weak on pillaging.

I didn't start the war yet - although I probably should have. I think this is another weak area of mine - I tend to be over prepared before attacking.
 
Petrucci said:
Congratulations Cabert :king:!!
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thank you, i'm very honored :)

i see i'm somewhat late, but now my connection is in order again and i'll try to follow the next move better.
I did a try for next round but my youngest daughter blowed my game at the 34th turn. I kept a turn log, that i'll post for comparison after the round is over, but i won't start again, since i think it was pretty good and no candidate for worst game.
When is the deadline for this round?

I see 2 submissions already, and we expect at least 4 (including WIII and Petrucci, Paul666 is still missing).
I think everybody should play the round to get a feeling, but it's no big deal if armstrong, pigswill, cam_h or myself don't post a save, is it?

Here is my comparison for previous round, not saying who i voted for (not for me, since i couldn't :lol: ).
 

Attachments

I'm actually playing a shadow. At this point (875bc) its so similar to cabert's that I'll get a feel for the next set but I won't be posting it here.
 
I'd like to see William, Petrucci, and Paul bounce into action too.

VuDu and Mice - thanks for your games. I've downloaded them but haven't perused yet. :)

Played my round for kicks (a bit hurried I'm afraid :blush: ).

Cam_H I think that because you are runing the thread ...
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This was not my intention - I kicked it off, but had hoped that Paul would have taken the reigns by now. I see myself as an opinionated participant :mischief: rather than running the thread ... or do you mean ruining the thread? ;)
 
well, we started the round only after the weekend.
I think we should wait until sunday evening at least before declaring the round over...

edit : what do you all think? are more submissions coming or do we have to choose between mice's and VuDu's game?
 
Ok sorry about the delay!! Got a new promotion at work, and catching up on previous undone work the slacker who got canned didn't do! After working on computers, servers software blah blah one of the last things I feel like doing some mornings is get on this PC! ha, regardless here we go!

Spoiler :

Ok, first off the lack of defense scared the you-know-what out of me, so me being paranoid, I started spamming archers (it was our best unit atm), then sent the doubled up workers down to road toward the bronze, then hook it up asap.

I knew we would need a sizable army soon, with beauracracy in the bag I would be aiming for macemen soon, also along the way I'll get forges with metal casting so guess what I did? Whipped some forges across the nation.

After bronze was hooked up and after throwing archers and loosing half of them at barbarians I ordered up about 5 axemen to help go on the offensive. These will be promoted to combat one and shock to complement the war elephants I'm now creating.

I'm aiming right now at Isabella as a friend, sure she is nutty, but cute! Joking aside, it seemed to me the best thing to do, Kublai is going to be whipped up the face of the world here next round (in my game anyway), and Napolean is being a jerk so I told him to shovel it, Isabella don't like Napolean also, so I went ahead and choose the Manic Depressive Issy as my friend, as she isn't letting napolean across her boarders! I'm sure war will break out between them two soon, unless he converts to buddism of course.

Lets see here, as I mentioned before I have a stack of axemen, war elephants, and catapults at a little town Kublai plunkered down a few rounds ago and it will fall easily. Future war plans include making about 8 more catapults, then start producing heavily with macemen. The ai's are so backwards right now we should be able to knock out kublai in short order. The only problem is I haven't be able to scout much of his territory, but shouldn't be any issue (yes famous last words...).

Future expansion, there is a barb city I'm sending a few axemen to investigate, may not be enough to take it, and isn't exactly in the location i would want, but weither we take it, or send a settler down (my choice) to get those horses in the fat cross, that town will be a great science city, it will also give us a coastal city that we can send some caravels over and see the new lands. Also, I'm currently researching drama, this will give us theaters to help with the war wearyness we are sure to experience here in short order! Then after that I was going to work on sending a settler over to that barb city to the west coast and finish researching up through optics.

EDIT: After posting my game, and reading the other reports, I would like to give a word to the GL, I did go alphabet and literature looks wonderful, maybe this is :smoke: or :vomit: perhaps even :suicide: but I wanted to focus on producing an army sooner, we will have the entire continent and lots of fertile lands north so figured it would be a differant way to go about it, and assign some science specialists in one of kublais towns over there! You guys think this is the wrong thing to focus on?


I hope this makes sense! Had fun playing this round, but the next one will be really fun!!
 
Petrucci said:
Ok sorry about the delay!! Got a new promotion at work, and catching up on previous undone work the slacker who got canned didn't do! After working on computers, servers software blah blah one of the last things I feel like doing some mornings is get on this PC! ha, regardless here we go!
Click to expand...

Don't worry, that's why we gave it a week :) Play when it's fun!

Should we set a final cut-off time now? :)
 
like armstrong said, the delay isn't a problem at all + you're not over the schedule, but the thread is dead silent, and i was anxious to see some of you play my game and tell me how it feels.

my feeling is to close the round tomorrow (sunday) in the evening, and selecting (voting) before tuesday.
i'll open the 3 savegames, now, and start thinking about them...
Shall i post my turn log (not 40 turns, i had a little problem before i came that far, but 34 is good enough to know where we could stand) now, or wait one more day?
 
cabert said:
Shall i post my turn log ... now, or wait one more day?
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I'm keen to see the turn log, and some more saves.

Interesting researching Petrucci regarding Drama,optics ahead of Literature/GL . I like your optimism about getting the beakers from the lands we will conquer. I think you're right, and I've been trying in my games to focus on happiness re. theatres, and forges with metals to build bigger cities and get the advantage that way.

Re. cut off=Sunday and next round start=Tuesday. Sounds good

cabert said:
and i was anxious to see some of you play my game and tell me how it feels.
Click to expand...

I often go for a CS slingshot, so it felt like playing a very good version of my game. Grab the GL, think about catapults and attacking. I didnt know if you intended to attack in the next 40 turns. I'm hoping to be shown a much better approach than mine, but maybe it's just about doing all the basics better. I guess we will see .
 
(I must submit my game now).

Not yet pulled the trigger on Kublai ... truly pathetic! ;)

Spoiler :
(Image removed - server space - empire screenie)

Opening: Split the workers up, and emphasised population growth in Berlin as it was well below potential. Metal Casting for all kinds of reasons became the first technology priority, although completed Masonry nonetheless. Other key technologies this round I figured would be Machinery and Construction.

Summary: Much of the effort was spent in getting both Berlin and Pigswill's City to grow to their potential. I chased The Pyramids in Berlin and got them - can be a Great Engineer city. Scouted around Spain, but little information on Mongolia. Took the Barbarian city to the west but it wasn't positioned optimally so chose to raze. A small SoD is forming east of Pigswill's City but it's still a tad premature to attack. Gave Isabella a great trade deal, but she's still less than impressed. A world report advised that we're #2 technology-wise, with an unknown tribe at #1.

Cabert's turn log was in French! Mine is summarised below;

850BC ... Masonry
600BC ... Metal Casting
550BC ... Kong Miao in Pigswill's City
(525BC ... Napoleon > Confucianism)
450BC ... Construction
(400BC ... Kublai Kahn > Hereditary Rule civic)
(350BC ... The Great Lightouse fil)
125BC ... Machinery
75BC ... Capture and raze Hurrian: Barbarian
75BC ... The Pyramids in Berlin
50BC ... Representation civic
1AD ... Alphabet
25AD ... Trade with Isabella: Code of Laws for Polytheism + Fishing
75AD ... Literature
(100AD ... Christianity fil)
 
my turnlog up to turn 34 (sorry no save)

Spoiler :
turn 1 : whipped library in Berlin (too bad for the silver mine, but it's still worth it!)
turn 2 : started a confucianist monastery in Berlin (7 turns officially but will go down a lot after city growth) and a library in pigswill (to be finished in 6 turns or whipped)
turn 3 : masonry discovered, start construction, hambourg's culture expanded
turn 4 : road to hambourg finished
turn 5 : hambourg whipped granary
turn 6 : hambourg starts a barracks, cow improved, so hambourg works cow (we lack workers!)
turn 7 : berlin finished monastery, starts an archer (we lack exploration!)
turn 8 : pigswill finishes library, starts pyramids, barbs spotted east and west. Sent archers out in the woods to intercept
turn 9 : east barb suicides on archer, west barb still on approach, pigswill's city is unhappy because of the lack of protection. Since construction is discovered, i whip a catapult for 2 pop : now they are happy :), berlin starts a catapult too, research towards metal casting.
turn 10 : west barb suicides on archer, nappy demands gold (he must be dreaming!). copper is finally connected :(
turn 11 : sent free archer westwards, to fogbust, sent catapult eastwards to scout mogol land
turn 12 : catapult in berlin is finished, started an elephant. saw a barb axeman north, moved "free archer" to intercept. Will need a better troop!
turn 13: i moved the catapults towards the barb axe; workers road towards deers in hambourg
turn 14 : i need no better troops! the glorious archer earned himself a promotion while killing the barb threat. Moïse builds us the kong miao (free tech would have been polytheism :().
turn 15 : a barb warrior comes from the south, i move berlin's archer to a silver min to intercept. The warrior pillages a silver mine :(
turn 16 : my brand new war elephant kills the bugger, the elephant is then promoted to combat 1 + medic. the archer goes back to berlin. metal casting is researched, start machinery. Berlin starts a forge, so does hambourg.
turn 17 : Berlin is now size 6, works farms. The elephant rests. "free archer" with drill 1 fortifies in the woods to intercept another barb axe.
turn 18 : another barb axe dies to "free archer". Berlin whips the forge. The elephant is healed and moves southwards. One catapult is scouting mongol territory.
turn 19: after the forge, Berlin starts a new catapult. workers come towards berlin. cat still scouting, elephant still moving south. Will be time to gather for the attack soon. We need an axe/mace to protect from spears. Hambourg whips the forge.
turn 20 : another barb (archer) suicides against free archer. I see a mongol stack (archer + settler). I will come to late to get a free worker :( switch Pigswill to a forge. Silver mine back to work.
turn 21 : machinery in 2 axemen in berlin in one. I switch to an elephant, so the hammers go to a mace. Pigswill whips the forge. My troops gather near turfan. Free archer heading north to explore a bit.
turn 22 : hambourg finishes catapult. now to axe. Pigswill is back to pyramids.
turn 23 : machinery is researched now to alphabet. troops still gathering :(.
turn 24 troops are slow = lack of workers! workers are roading to turfan. No one has alphabet yet.
turn 25 : i start sending troops (another elephant and a catapult) to ancient sarai. I could send one stack in... i do! (open borders ;)) There is a spear in turfan :(
turn 26 i withdraw my troops (so i know where they start the war), the second mini stack is in place now. I could whip the pyramids for 3 pop. I don't. But workers come for a final chop.
turn 27 : time for war! i bombard ancient sarai, first stack reenters mongol territory with hostile thoughts this time. mace is finished in berlin. Heads to ancient sarai.
turn 28: alphabet is discovered. time for theatre. mace finished in hambourg. time for whipping there so i start a library ;). First round of bombing in turfan. second one in ancient sarai. The mace closes in for the fight.
turn 29 : pyramids are done! i start a mace. I don't switch to any other civic right now, but will later (state police!) when i have time or need. second bombing in turfan (5¨% left ? they built a wall!). There are 3 defenders in anciant sarai now, so i bomb it once more (waiting for more troops). Free archer still moving north, remember? library is whipped for 2 pop in hambourg.

turn 30 : After the library, i can have a cat in hambourg in one turn :). another catapult in berlin. one more round of bombing in ancint sarai. one cat bombs turfan to 0, the 2 others kill troops inside. the elphant kills a axeman wandering in our territory. Free archer met a barb axe, he moved away further north.
turn 31 : my 3 catapults capture turfan, while the lone catapults suicides to an archer in ancien sarai. The elephant kills an archer and the mace razes the city. I'm still at 100% research!
turn 32 theatre is discovered. start music. Both catapults and elephant now in turfan, healing (medic elephant is cool :) )
turn 32: troops gathering in turfan,the elephant and one cat are healed, move NE in mogol land towards the bronze.
turn 33: Turfan comes out of revolt and starts a theatre. The mace kills the spear guarding the bronze mine, the cat and elephant follow him. 2 maces kill a settler escort and give me a free worker.
turn 34: pigswill starts another catapult, will be complete in 1 turn thanks to a chopping. workers start to farm NW of wheat. Kublai would sue for peace for monotheism and sailing (we traded for fishing with nappy), i try monarchy and he agrees.
 
Not submitting my shadow but having looked at the saves my shadow went in a different direction. I was aiming for peaceful expansion and Isabella declared on me! Founded another city; captured one of Izzy's at 125ad. City maintenance costs of 17 gpt compared to 5gpt sure make a difference to research times at this point in the game.
As I posted earlier it would be good to get the views of the noble princes on the various submissions before they feel 'intimidated' (LOL) by the highbrow discussions of the imperial monarchs.
 
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