ALC Game #8: Alexander/Greece

Dr Elmer Jiggle said:

And assuming you get The Great Library, you'll already be able to run 4 specialists in the super science city. That's probably about all you can support food-wise in most early to mid-game cities.

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Well only 2 of them cost you food (so its really like the Great Library just has some Free Flasks and GP points)

Krikkitone said:

Well only 2 of them cost you food (so its really like the Great Library just has some Free Flasks and GP points)

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Doesn't it also allow 2 more regular specialists? (... looks at the XML ...) Hmm, no it doesn't. I wonder where I got the idea that it does. Anyway, that's what I was thinking when I said 4.

So theoretically then Caste System could allow you an additional 1 or 2 specialists in your science city, but like you said originally, is that really better than Slavery? I'm thinking no. Among other things, as soon as you research Currency you can whip a building that will let you run additional specialists without Caste System and earn you money at the same time.

I have run my hybrid economy without caste system. Only used slavery and switched only at the end to emancipation to cripple the other players because I was way ahead of them. I ran about 2 scientists in every city and had 2 super specialists cities (don't ask me why please ) with a lot of merged great people. Got the highest score so far. Never had so much fun turning 3 people on monty to go to war and then coming in with modern armors to find his cities only defended by 2 infantry and 1 sam. Conquered his 8 cities in about 12 turns and the game was over. Another thing I have learned from these threads (bribing others to go to war, fun fun fun).

So caste system is not that good if you ask me. As others stated you can run specialists from other buildings too. When you get confuciasm you also want a great prophet to get the shrine. Set up 2 priests in the oracle city to get when needed. And the whip is too damn usefull most of the times.

Sealing of the SE is also the best course if you ask me. Claim the whole north part for yourself. Then get the superscience city next.

I have to agree with Killroyan, don't run the caste system in this game. See my analysis and comparative game for ALC 7.See post 432. That clearly shows for a SE that Slavery is much more productive than the Caste System at least as long as there are infrastructure buildings to be installed. It is just as important to turn the extra food you get from farms into hammers as it is to run specialists to get beakers, gold and GPPs. In the longer term (after Banking) plan to turn some of your support cities into Merchant cities so the science slider can be run at 100% for long enough to get key technologies such as Liberalism.

This looks to be another fun and informative game but it does seem that the 2 wonders have slowed your start. In most of my games with Alex by 600 AD, I have 3 cities with 3 workers and a 4th city on the way and I'm building a nice stack of axes ready to grab a neighbours city or two... although I don't go for the Pyramids

Representation will give you +2 happiness and allow pop growth although Heriditary rule would allow even more happiness. Without many happiness resources (only silver and silk for Siliutil) and no religions on your continent this could be a game with small cities for a long time. Conquering Mao will give no happy resources you can't get yourself. Ironworking should give gems and open up the jungles for dye. In the long term it seems Vicky can offer wine, whales and fur from trade initially and then her conquest that but that is a long way off in the distant south and will take many, many turns.

Killroyan said:

I have run my hybrid economy without caste system. Only used slavery and switched only at the end to emancipation to cripple the other players because I was way ahead of them. I ran about 2 scientists in every city and had 2 super specialists cities (don't ask me why please ) with a lot of merged great people.

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why did you have 2 supersciencecities?

cabert said:

why did you have 2 supersciencecities?

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Must withstand the temptation of answering............aarrrghgh.......too hard.........resistance is futile..........

It has something to do with drinking and playing . I was merging some GP first in my capital and then deciding that another city is better as a science city and began merging specialist from then on in that city but both cities were supporting 6+ specialist as well as >6 merged GP. Merchants/prophets in my capital with wall street and engineers/scientists/artists in my GL city (yes also engineers because I needed some hammers over there).

Darn you Cabert, I told you not to ask and still I answer Morale of the story is don't drink and play at the same time if you want to have an optimal result but still I got the best score ever out of that game

Killroyan said:

Darn you Cabert, I told you not to ask and still I answer Morale of the story is don't drink and play at the same time if you want to have an optimal result but still I got the best score ever out of that game

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seems like you did a double GPfarm, with a few misplaced merged scientists, not that bad...(in fact what did you lose? 3 or 6 beakers per turn?, not even as bad as a pillaged town) (and i just could not resist temptation to ask, since you said we should not )

Round 3: to 125 AD

A very dramatic series of turns, as you'll see.

To start with, after giving it some thought, I decided to finally take advantage of the Pyramids now that I had safely snagged the Oracle. So I made a civics change:



Police State will help with unit production, of course, and I need units. I can't run many specialists at the moment, what with small city populations, the happiness limit, and the whip, so Representation can wait.

I finally accumulated enough units outside of Shanghai to launch an attack. Mao had an Archer and a Chariot defending. I had two Axes (1 CR1/Cover and 1 Combat 2/Shock) and a Medic 1/March Phalanx. I knew the Phalanx could take out the Chariot with no problem, but the Archer would likely cost me an Axeman:



A fair swap for a city, I thought.

Well, the gods of Olympus were smiling upon me, because my Axe survived the attack! He went down to 0.5 strength, but he won! My other Axe never had to raise his blade; the Phalanx finished off the Chariot with ease, and then...



On top of which, I now have a Level 4 unit:



Aces. That gold will kept my research going at 100% a while longer! Once Shanghai came out of revolt, my first build was an Obelisk. I want to claim that Silver ASAP. I also started building a road from Athens to Shanghai to ensure a two-way flow of copper and silver. I had several units headed in that direction, and sent a spare Scout to do some fog-busting, to ensure the Worker laying down the road was in no danger.

Meahwhile, I built my next city, as we'd discussed:



I did not start building an obelisk in Thermopylae; I have another plan in mind, which we'll come to later. I opted for a Barracks instead. The Gems have to wait until Iron Working anyway.

Meanwhile, my Axe healed in Shanghai and I sent him through the woods to scout out Beijing:



Ooooh, look. Only two Archers defending, a Worker for the taking, cows and horses, and...waitaminit--what's that in the fog? I got a message a turn back about the Great Lighthouse being built "in a faraway land". Not THAT faraway, it looks like! And that wasn't all of Beijing's booty, as you'll see. I brought a couple more Axes to bear, and China was no more:





Yes, that's right--a lighthouse, the Great Lighthouse, and TWO workers! After Mao built the wonder, he built a Settler! I would have been building units in these dire circumstances, but the AI has a slightly different agenda. To be fair, I have, in other games, taken what I thought was the last city of a civ only to find they have another one hidden somewhere; in a couple of games, the AI put their hidden city so far afield I didn't find it until centuries later! So as a desperate survival tactic, it may sometimes make sense. And hey, it got me another free Worker, so I'm not complaining. I have 4 Workers now, and only 1 that I built myself!

And I have the Great Lightouse! And Metal Casting for forges, and I'm Philosophical...

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. Once Beijing came out of revolt, I whipped away its unhappy citizens for an Obelisk. That done, I then started work on a forge. Following that... the Colossus and, I hope, a Great Merchant or two!

This is fun.

Speaking of Great People...



Thanks to The Tryant, I can't ever see this GE without thinking of The Mummy: "Im-ho-tep... Im-ho-tep..."

I haven't used him yet. I sent him to Thermopylae. I have something in mind for him, and it's not the Great Library. I'll get to it.

Meanwhile, I finished researching CoL without any help from the Oracle for a change, and I still won the full gift set:



I converted right away. I could use the happiness boost in several cities. Not only is my whip hand getting sore; As you can see, in the absence of any more war booty, my research was about to crash. I started laying down some cottages--and I need citizens to work them.

So religion was going to help, as well as the silver. I will be switching to Representation soon as well, though I had not done so by the end of the round--I still had a couple of units to finish off.

In addition, diplomatically, Saladin STILL hasn't founded his own religion! So to heck with waiting for him. I have OB with him and Vicky, and a trade route with the latter--so I figure Confucianism is likely to spread. (Vicky has furs to offer, but all I have in exchange at this point are horses, which as you can imagine I'm reluctant to give to a future enemy, so no deal.)

Now I was thinking after the quick success with Mao that I should keep warring to keep my economy robust. So I sent a Phalanx over to have a peek at Saladin's nearest city:



Hmmmm...well, it's weakly defended, but how the heck did it get that 40% cultural defense without a religion? Plus he has copper and I have indeed seen a couple of Axes wandering around his territory. I need to do a little more building anyway, and I think I may wait until I have construction and Catapults before taking on Sally.

Here's a look at the map at the end of the round, in 125 AD:



Some thoughts I'm having and/or decisions I have to make:

• Great Engineer: well, if you noticed what I was researching in the next-to-last screenshot, some of you have probably figured this out. In 125 AD precisely, I finished researching Polytheism and the Parthenon has not yet been built. Imhotep is snug in Thermopylae, which I figure is a good site for the Wonder, to keep the GP points in the other cities pure. Yes, I did the math, and Athens with its Engineer specialist will indeed give me another GE before Sparta gives me a Great Prophet or Beijing, a Great Merchant--so I can use him on the Great Library. On the other hand, Imhotep could be popped for Machinery for immediate Crossbows and, with CS (which Sparta's GP could help with), Macemen. Hmmm...
• The Science City: not yet founded! Although I am almost finished its Settler in Athens and have its initial protector (a Combat I/Shock/Cover Axe) standing by. Should this city still go where we sigmakan planned it? We've lost one flood plain thanks to the cursed and thankfully dead Chinese, as Hans pointed out. Nevertheless, the planned site (2S and 1W of the cows) still has 4 floodplains. I thought of making Beijing the science city, but unfortunately, the Great Lighthouse poisons the GP points.
• Research: I've chosen Alphabet, with Literature for the GL to follow. Construction, as I've said, is a priority, along with Iron Working for the Gems. Then again, with my research dropping, so is Currency. It will be interesting to see what I can get from Vicky and Sally once I have Alphabet.
• War: Should I wait on Catapults before going after Saladin? Or should I just whip some Axes, putting the overflow into civilian builds like libraries and courthouses, and take his cities by brute force? I've done it before with an Aggressive civ--remember the Monty game, way back when?
• Barbarians: They are annoying, what with all that tundra to my north. But they're good for free XPs. Still, they're a distraction. Waffle, waffle, waffle. I'm thinking some Chariots for fog-busting (Flanking I and then hopefully some of them can earn Sentry).

Lemme know what you think...

Sisiutil said:

• Research: I've chosen Alphabet, with Literature for the GL to follow. Construction, as I've said, is a priority, along with Iron Working for the Gems. Then again, with my research dropping, so is Currency. It will be interesting to see what I can get from Vicky and Sally once I have Alphabet.

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Well, if you have chosen it, fine. But it's premature. Tech trading with targets? Especially when Vicky's economy is going to light rockets? You aren't ready to extort techs any time soon, you won't have your engineer for the GL for a while....

Sisiutil said:

• War: Should I wait on Catapults before going after Saladin?

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Saladin? Oh, my ears and whiskers!

Dude, look at the map. Where's the prize? Go take it. And yes, you are going to need the rock throwers to do it.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

Well, if you have chosen it, fine. But it's premature. Tech trading with targets? Especially when Vicky's economy is going to light rockets? You aren't ready to extort techs any time soon, you won't have your engineer for the GL for a while....

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Is it? At my current 50% research rate, Alphabet will take 16 turns, Literature 12. I'm at 108/200 GPP in Athens with 10 points per turn, so a GE will appear in 10 turns. He'll show up in 8 turns if I build the Parthenon in Thermopylae, as I think I should. So no, I don't think it's premature at all. The sooner I have the GL and can devote one city to churning out Great Scientists, the better.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

Saladin? Oh, my ears and whiskers!

Dude, look at the map. Where's the prize? Go take it. And yes, you are going to need the rock throwers to do it.

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I take it you're referring to London, with all those flood plains. Okay. So are you suggesting I get Construction next, build Catapults, and put the Great Library there?

Interesting possibility. Questions, concerns, comments...?

Use Imhotep for researching Machinery. It opens up Macemen earlier (not much earlier, since you can't use the GP to research CS now you have Masonry), but it gets you one tech closer to Optics, an important tech on Continents. This will in turn allow for slightly earlier Astronomy, and that means you can destroy the other civs that much earlier. Besides, if you hook up the Marble the GL won't be very expensive anyway, so using a GE on it is a waste. The only other option is to use it for the Colossus, but using a Great Person to rush a wonder that you'll really only see the main benefit from the Great People it produces seems counter-productive.

Mecca is also an interesting possibility, it has Banana, loads of grassland and 2 clams to support quite a few scientists, you can capture it much earlier than London and won't kill you with maintenance so much. In the long-term however London is your best bet.

First thing: its still early in the game. Other continent seems to be doing ok.
I suppose the question is consolidate or attack. There's a lot of unclaimed territory around in the north of the island. Or you could just go for the continent and worry about barb cities later; you'd certainly need cats before you finished. You're a long way from maces even if you burn GE on machinery; prophet will give you mono and theo before CS. Your economy isn't that brilliant.
I tend towards caution as you may have noticed. You got oracle at 650bc? You got Confucianism at 1ad? Can your luck last? Does the RNG love you that much?

Good points all. I think London is pie-in-the-sky at this point; Saladin is likely to expand into my way. He'll have to be cut down first.

I think some consolidation is in order. A switch to Construction makes sense so I can go after Saladin. The war booty will allow me to boost research via deficit spending for a while. If I can take Medina in a reasonable amount of time, I should have Marble by the time I can build the GL and I may be able to use my 2nd GE for Machinery. Meanwhile, some good old-fashioned cottage-spamming is called for.

The Parthenon combined with Philosophical and several GP-pure cities has a terrific synergy. I keep forgetting I researched Masonry, so I can't use a Great Prophet for CS anyway--thanks for the reminder, pigswill. Frankly, I'd rather use a GP for the shrine in Shanghai, given how much I need money. I do want to build the Colossus in Beijing, but I'll want to generate a GP from Sparta before a GM from Beijing, so I'll have to time it carefully and maybe see about spreading Confucianism to Sparta for a temple and a priest.

Following Literature, Currency, Iron Working, and Calendar will be high-priority techs. I know several of you are arguing in favour of Slavery over Caste System, and I tend to agree and in any case will try to stick with it for the sake of contrast with the Freddy game. The only advantage at this point to Caste System would be to run Merchants, and I'd rather have cottages and keep the GP points pure.

pigswill said:

Can your luck last? Does the RNG love you that much?

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I'm thinking the other continent must be inhabited by all the Civ IV militaristic lunatic fringe leaders. Montezuma, Tokugawa, and maybe Napoleon.

Sisiutil said:

(Vicky has furs to offer, but all I have in exchange at this point are horses, which as you can imagine I'm reluctant to give to a future enemy, so no deal.)

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You've got Phalanx. They can even do alright against Knights. There's no reason you shouldn't trade the Horses away, especially if you have excess.

I'd go for Peace for now, get one more GE, and then start getting all your GPPs focused on Scientists. (Athens, Sparta, Bejing and Shanghai can all support 2 Scientists, make sure they all have a Library and then get them the two Scientists) [for Athens wait until its second GE is out.]

Pure GP pools aren't all that useful if you would rather have another type of GP. (so a Scientists polluted with Merchants is better than a Merchant pool all by itself)

The only non-Scientist GPs you want are 1 Prophet, and 1 More Engineer, Athens will get the Second, and I'd imagine Sparta will get the third. (especially once the Parthonon is Rushed)

I'd found the 'Red city' on the Grassland tile for the 4 Floodplains.. make it the Science City (Whip a Library ASAP)

Found Marble City as Well

Research Literature First. You could try overwhelming him now with massive numbers, but if you wait a bit you can be overwhelming him with better units.

I suport the Parthenon GE.... it is a bit of a delay in Gratification (More Scientists sooner v. a Tech Right now) But Machinery isn't useful Right Now.
Probably better to research Bureaucracy (after Construction) and Then Machinery.

All the while trading with whoever you are Not Attacking right now... The English will push ahead, sure but With a good Science City you should be much Stronger. (and by good trading you improve your advantage


PS what religions HAVE been founded, with Saladin getting none of them? (I'd imagine the first 3 are gone...meaning the other Continent has Gandhi, Spain, MM or the Natives..possibly two of them.. and given the easy Oracle access, I'd guess that Gandhi and MM aren't there... I'd guess the second continent is a 1492 rematch, Hindu Aztecs v. Buddhist Spaniards)

So in order
1. Engineer Parthenon
2. Found Red City (whip Library)
3. Start Whipping Libraries in Cities [exception Bejing, Getting the Colossus there is good]
4. Research Literature, start on Civil Service
5. Get GE from Athens for GLibrary in Red City
6. Get Prophet from Sparta for Shrine in Shanghai
7. Run 2 Scientists in ALL cities to beef up the Science City
8. Research Civil Service, start on Construction
9. Change to Representation and Bureaucracy
10. Research Construction, start on Machinery
11. Start taking the continent

Currency, IW, and Calendar can be Traded for. they are Not that necessary

I think you can start trumping Lou Gherig on being the luckiest man on the face of the Earth. I would go out and buy a Lotto ticket before things wear off!

Aside from the fairly remarkable snagging of Oracle and Confucianism at these late dates, I can't believe you took Shanghai with just a 3:2 unit ratio. I'm NEVER that lucky. It's one of the big puzzlers I have with this game, since people act like you can whip up 4 City Raider Axemen and you're all set to go to war. If my best attacks are at 50%-70% odds it's pretty much a forgone conclusion I won't win without a 2:1 ratio or better. In this particular game, I had whipped up a huge (for me at this stage) army: 4 Axemen and 4 Phalanxes that I expected to use to wipe out Mao by 600 BC. But he had Walls in Shanghai and 6 defenders in Beijing. He had also taken some Barbarian city that I was unable to find, making it so far away I don't see how he got troops to wherever it was in order to capture it. This extra city must have been near Horses since he continued to produce Chariots even after I pillaged all his local Pastures. I didn't have any way to get rid of him without resorting to Catapults.

Speaking of which, I don't see why you can't war with Saladin. Even if you don't take a single city, you can earn XP fighting his troops when they come out and you can do just fine pillaging him to keep him down. Plus you might find a city you can take that is as weakly defended as Mao's. Since there is no extra WW for the length you fight, if the focus is on pillage the WW you gather at this stage is negligible. If you use peace to build up, you are giving the same advantage to your opponent. I see it as a clear mistake in my shadow game that I did not immediately start weakening Saladin after I had Mao walled up in his last two cities.

gotta agree with eggman's assessment and just wanted to add a little

based on your distance from one coast to the other.. I'd say you have atleast 2-3 locations worth settling out inside and behind your own borders. get those settled out sooner rather than later so their populations can expand.. more places to crack the whip for more war units to hassle and attack saladin.

with 4 workers you should be able to spam out some cottages and farms and mines as you need all 3.. and make a tech pitstop at calendar to unlock all those wonderful happiness resources on the map.

your luck against the chinese was astounding so gj there.

best of luck with next round

NaZ

1. Yeah, rush the Parthenon. That'd be cool.

2. Watch out for that Barb Axeman.

3. Put your next settler 3S,2W of Beijing and use that for Oxford/NE/GL. Excruciating justification follows.

First off, cows-2S1E is slightly better than cows-2S1W.
2S1W has uniquely:
* 2 food from fresh water
* 2 plains tiles
* 3 river commerce
2S1E has uniquely:
* 3 grass tiles
In 2S1W, the fresh water bonus effectively turns those 2 plains tiles into grass tiles. So then it's 3 river commerce vs. 1 grass tile, and 2S1E wins.

But Beijing-3S2W is even better. It would be best if you used it with Caste System, but it is reasonable to prefer Slavery for
1. soon, whipping buildings in new cities in the north
2. any time, whipping units, if you keep your production cities small
3. later, whipping buildings in conquered cities.

Even with slavery, Beijing-3S2W is still better than cows-2S1E.

Health in either city:
2:base
6: granary + grains
2: grocer + banana, not counting wine
1: cow
3: seafood
2: aqueduct
-2: floods
total: 14.
Beijing-3S2W can get 3 more health from a harbor = 17.

Cows-2S1E:
6 grass cottages, 4 farmed floods, plains cow, plains cottage, 4 scientists
size 16, health 14
food 12+16+3+1+2 = 34.
Yield: 6 cottages, 6 river commerce, 4 hammers, 4 scientists

Beijing-3S2W:
5 cottage floods, plains wheat, coast fish, plains cottage, plains mine, 3 coast, 5 scientists
size 17, health 17
food 15+4+6+1+6+2 = 34.
Yield: 5 cottages, 6 river commerce, 6 coast commerce (9 w/ Colossus), 6 hammers, 5 scientists, +50% trade route yield

I'd like to second Eggman's Idea of a Pillage War with the Arabs, they are well enough defended that you don't want to try taking cities, but your better units can stifle them well. The key is a war that will NOT cost you because the English will benefit too much.

A nice mix of Shock Axes and Phalanxes can strip them down to cowering clam fishermen. It may encourage them to give up a tech for peace once you have Alphabet, and possibly cut down thier religion drive, meaning that Confucianism may dominate the Continent (easier for you when you take them over, and pacifying and keeping an eye on the English)

Bejing 3S 2 W would make an OK city, but not a Good Scientist city as some of its best tiles (floodplains) overlap with Bejing (I would try and settle somewhere to get that wheat-fish combo though, it makes a nice Whip/Fishing Village, it can work any Floodplains cottages Bejing is not, otherwise it just works the sea)

I don't think the Health bonus is really that important nor is the total size of the city.. If we are planning on Winning Fast how much it can support at pop 15+ is irrelevant.

Cow 2 S and then 1 (E or W) would be best as it supports 5 Scientists with a population of 9 (4 Floodplains) uncontested tiles. With 10, it has some nice production from the Cow as well.