ALC Game #8: Alexander/Greece

Calavente said:
I've a question for english-speaking people: is the pronunciation of the two identical, quite identical or not at all?

My vote is "almost exactly" identical. To my ear, the two words sound the same, but the shape of my mouth is subtly different.

Disclaimer: I'm American. My status as an "english-speaking people" may be subject to some debate.
 
Krikkitone said:
Sounds good, Iceburg and Cowfish are the Last cities that can truly be said to be 'Good' in your home territory, the only other one is a Horses/Silk. And Cow Fish is Better, but I'd get Iceburg anyways, its a worthwhile investment for the Silver Commerce (as the English will settle there anyways if you don't)
If you think the English will settle Iceburg before you liberate the rest of their cities (and perhaps more importantly, you trust the AI to settle it in the right place), I'd be inclined to let Vicky waste the 100 hammers on a settler for you. Any city up there is going to be very easy for you to capture later on since it's up near your production centres, and a couple more Cats will be more immediately useful to you.

I totally agree on the pacifism front. It may cost you 10% in research rate for a little while, but the benefit in more, faster GP will more than make up for it. If the NE pops you any GAs, and no attractive lightbulbing opportunities exist, I'd be inclined to use them to pop Mecca/London immediately out of rebellion to make those cities as useful to you as possible (or save one to do the same thing when you establish your beachhead on the other continent - instant 40% cultural defence makes any counterattack a lot easier to weather).

Happy warmongering!
 
What a wonderful game :egypt: ... and I mean that literally ... it is a game full of wonders :lol:

You excell yourself again Sisiutil :) and this is turning into another cakewalk, so perhaps you should move up to Monarch, although I'd like a migration to Warlords as well so maybe one Warlords game at Prince level and then introduce a bit more of an AI challenge for you.

I'm not sure what sort of economy you are running right now (mixed probably describes it best) but acquiring the Parthenon as well as the Pyramids and being Alex and philosophical just screams SE from now on. And a full unadulterated hardcore SE at that. You should be chosing farm over cottage on any grassland or floodplain that can be irrigated and thinking of running food specialists. You get a fast response compared with slow cottage growth and huge output of beakers and GPPs.

A city with a library and running 2 scientists (costs 4 food) gives 15 beakers and 15 GPPs. That can be installed in a few turns in newly founded or conquered cities using granary and the whip. Then if you run Pacificm later when you have several cities equipped like that the GPPs climb to an astonishing 21 per library. It really can't get any better than this early in a game.

Corinth could be a specialist powerhouse but I would not be building NE (108 hammers invested so far :( ) there before a granary, forge and 2 monasties ... or running scientists with so much happiness to grow. It needs farms fast not mines and food + granary + forge = lots of :hammers: :hammers: :hammers: . An academy there will make it a research hotspot independent of gold and research slider. Corinth needs to be :whipped: into shape :p and it can churn out beakers and GS for lightbulbing Education and then dash on to to Liberalism for another free tech.

Since this is a wonderful game I am wondering why you are not building the 2 other wonders you could :crazyeye: I mean Chichen Itza and Angkor Wat. You probably don't actually want to build them for real but they are a great source of gold. You need to be sure the AI beats you to them and then you get a nice haul of gold so slow down construction if they near completion. With stone, a forge and OR you can raise 5 gold for 2 hammers which is an astonishingly good rate, and given your financial situation few things could do more for raising the research slider.

Great game Sisutil and fascinating write up. Keep entertaining us :cheers:
 
so taking account the informations from Krikkitone, VoH and Carl corey... who are all eminently wise players and english-speakers...
I propose a poll so that sisiutil can make a more efficient use of his joke on the next ALC. (yes, even americans, save texans, are english speakers for me, non-native english speaker) (:blush: I hope there is no texan reading me: :spank:)


:old: "To sum all of it :
1) the two spelling "icebUrg" and "icebErg" seems to be pronounced the same way,
2) it seems to me that there is more cities finishing in "-burg" than in "-berg", think of strasburg / hamburg ...etc,
3) IcebErg is already a noun and dilute the joke,
4) Sisiutil seems to love easy jokes,
5) I love them too, it makes the thread even more spicy..
Regarding these 5 points, I vote that sisiutil use the name "icebUrg" the next time he will speak about a city as the current one and still want to try the joke."

anyone concures?
 
I know, but it does bring no harm to help him a bit so they are a little better... (or at least I smiled more on Iceburg than on the 1st Iceberg)

the irony is that I'm corrected by a french... I would have thought the spanking would come from a texan :D

oups... ok, I stop this off-topic subject. (currently reading the 1st ALC... it's so great !!)
 
Where is the challenge implied by Challenge? ;) Look how quickly and easily you are going through the game now. Up your difficulty by two degrees the next time. Warlords Monarch, anyone? Get used to playing Warlords on prince first in your private games, Sisiutil.

Sorry if this seems more appropriate in the poll thread, but my immediate and strongest reaction to the last round was: "The game is probably already won, and so easily too."
 
aelf said:
Where is the challenge implied by Challenge? ;) Look how quickly and easily you are going through the game now. Up your difficulty by two degrees the next time. Warlords Monarch, anyone? Get used to playing Warlords on prince first in your private games, Sisiutil.

Sorry if this seems more appropriate in the poll thread, but my immediate and strongest reaction to the last round was: "The game is probably already won, and so easily too."

well, it looks like no one can run a wonder race like GEngineering sisiutil...
 
Sisiutil: its one thing being dogpiled in the game, but being dogpiled on your thread for your wonderful play is a bit much.
BTW Have you worked out how many axes you could have built instead of pyramids/oracle/glib etc etc?

Edit. I think that there is a serious point here. It seems that you do have a tendency to go for wonders and its been pretty much a feature throughout the ALC series. Fair enough, wonders do confer significant advantages. Its also your game and you can play it any darned way you please, its not like you keep losing after all.
I did float the idea of early victory in the pre-discussion thread but this concept does appear to have drifted a bit over the past couple of rounds. I also haven't been as involved as I have in previous ALC games (for all the difference that makes).
One of the thoughts I wish I'd thought of and posted in pre-game discussion was trying something different on the lines of using Oracle for a theology slingshot (instead of CoL/CS or machinery) and using that at the basis of a conquest/domination game. However the game has moved on.
 
Calavente said:
:old: "To sum all of it :
1) the two spelling "icebUrg" and "icebErg" seems to be pronounced the same way,
2) it seems to me that there is more cities finishing in "-burg" than in "-berg", think of strasburg / hamburg ...etc,
3) IcebErg is already a noun and dilute the joke,
4) Sisiutil seems to love easy jokes,
5) I love them too, it makes the thread even more spicy..
Regarding these 5 points, I vote that sisiutil use the name "icebUrg" the next time he will speak about a city as the current one and still want to try the joke."

anyone concures?

I'd call it BrassMonkey
 
pigswill said:
Sisiutil: its one thing being dogpiled in the game, but being dogpiled on your thread for your wonderful play is a bit much.
I'll tell you what, I'll trade you Iron Working if you send your troops there this turn rather than later like you were saying. And yes, of course you should take Athens, but I'd like everything from Corinth to the northeast of that.
 
I like the suggestion of moving your economy as far as practicable to an SE based, GP crazy, wonderful economy. This would be a quite different style from that most of us play and so we would learn even more. Could also help with the upcoming intercontinental war.
 
Nice game :)

But looking at the save, I am surpised you are still building cottages.

In a SE population is the key, IMO. If your pop is nowhere near the happiness limit, you have to build farms. If it is near the happiness limit, build mines. If it is over the happiness limit, whip something expensive and build some workers/settlers with the food. The more farms you have, the more specialists you can run. The more specialists you run, the bigger your tech-lead will be.

If you eventually run out of money, attack someone. If you seriously need money, trade a tech or work some sea tiles.

Looking at the save, I'd consider getting some workers to improve the land and grow grow grow your cities :)
 
The cottages came about because of the sorry state of the Greek economy at the end of the previous round. Since I did not at that time have Currency for Markets, and the advice was against running Caste System, I could not run ANY merchant specialists to compensate for the lack of GPT. Cottages were the only alternative.

Plus we had pretty much agreed on running a mixed economy in this game rather than a pure SE, even with the Pyramids. Which meant cottages around several cities where they would be worthwhile. On a city by city basis:

  • Athens gets cottages because it's the capital and bureaucracy will benefit from them.
  • Sparta will get farms because...well, just look at it!
  • Beijing gets cottages because it has good terrain for them. However, I will consider plowing them under for farms, especially since flood plains are so good for farms, and that is one of the cities with wonders that could produce more GPs.
  • Shanghai also got cottages because at the time, I needed them, and grassplains don't make for great farms. The cottages are maturing and I'll probably leave them; with all that tundra and two low-food resource tiles, that city is never going to run many specialists.
  • Corinth gets farms to run as many scientists as possible, pure and simple. However, with the long time the NE is taking, I'll consider changing its build queue.
  • Thermopylae will get farms. I just haven't been able to lay them down until CS.

It's getting to a point where I will need some more workers, and need them teamed. I'm hoping to capture some from Saladin.

Pacifism may be very attractive. I'll consider it.

And yes, it was fun to suddenly change the temperature on Saladin like that. I don't know how the AI is programmed for this, but the AI seemed very human there, as if thinking that all I'd be doing was pillaging, and then suddenly I captured a city. Serves him right for not coughing up any techs, frankly.
 
pigswill said:
Sisiutil: its one thing being dogpiled in the game, but being dogpiled on your thread for your wonderful play is a bit much.

No harm meant :) I did think that this has been a breeze for Sisiutil, but I guess I forgot that the aim of this ALC is to win quickly, efficiently and beautifully. From a builder's point of view, this aim is being achieved.
 
aelf said:
No harm meant :) I did think that this has been a breeze for Sisiutil, but I guess I forgot that the aim of this ALC is to win quickly, efficiently and beautifully. From a builder's point of view, this aim is being achieved.

Agreed. Good job, Sisiutil. I rarely build wonders. Before ALC 7&8, I would have never known that an early Great Engineer Farm can get you all those wonders with little or no shift in the per turn production. Push Pyramids and Forge, and it just feeds on itself.
 
Stolen Rutters said:
Agreed. Good job, Sisiutil. I rarely build wonders. Before ALC 7&8, I would have never known that an early Great Engineer Farm can get you all those wonders with little or no shift in the per turn production. Push Pyramids and Forge, and it just feeds on itself.
That's definitely the advantage of the Pyramids, too--more GE points. In Warlords, it sounds like it makes the Great Wall worthwhile.

I played the next round last night (will post it tonight), and I got ANOTHER GE in Athens--and I don't know what to do with him! I'm sure several of you will tell me. ;)

Regarding wonders in general, Hans said it first and said it best: I'm a builder at heart. I war so I can build. Wonders are fun, GPs are fun.

And Aelf is bang-on regarding the difficulty level. It's definitely time to move on from Prince, which is starting to feel like Settler to me. The next ALC will go to Monarch, and I want that to be a major focus. We'll discuss how one moves up to and adjusts to that level, and then try to demonstrate it. (Let's not discuss that now, though--hold on for the pre-game thread.)
 
Nice game so far.

In Warlords, the Great Wall is simply awesome to generate a GE and permit unbridled expansion on Monarch difficulty (all speeds). No fog busters required.
 
Round 5: to 1330 AD

I begin by taking. I shall find scholars later to demonstrate my perfect right.
- Euripides

The round began with a recommended civics change:

ALCAlex1330AD_01.jpg


As you'll see, that really raised the GP output. Between Philosophical, Pacifism, and the Parthenon, that's a 250% GP bonus--once I completed the National Epic in Corinth, a whopping 350% GP bonus in that city alone!

Sure enough, only a few turns later, my first GP of the Pacifism era appeared--my second Great Scientist out of Corinth:

ALCAlex1330AD_02.jpg


I used him for the Academy, and was gratified to see 1 turn removed from Engineering's research time immediately.

I was, however, not playing the game like a pacifist--oh, no, not me! The war against Saladin remained "hot". First, I spotted a Settler colonly (1 Settler, 1 Archer, 1 Spearman) trying to sneak by Medina on the way to Kufah--no doubt to repeat his attempted settlement north of Athens in the previous round. I destroyed the 2 defenders and obtained another worker.

I was all set to continue south, but this incident made me realize that I needed to clean up my back yard first:

ALCAlex1330AD_03.jpg


I kept the city, as it's one of the ones sigmakan's dotmap specified. Nice of Sally to build it for me.

Then I got my next great person, another Great Engineer out of Athens, in spite of my running two scientists there:

ALCAlex1330AD_04.jpg


I set him aside for awhile. Contrary to a post above where I claimed to not have a use for him, I'd forgotten that I did indeed use him, and rather quickly--as you might guess by what I was researching.

ALCAlex1330AD_05.jpg


As I conquer territory--especially in that jungle--I'll have a lot for my workers to do, so this is a very useful wonder. It also adds to Athens' growing GE points.

And a little while after that, I got another Great Person! Beijing finally produced its long-promised Great Merchant, again in spite of running 1 or 2 scientists for most of the last several turns:

ALCAlex1330AD_06.jpg


I dithered for awhile over his use. I eventually sent him north to Shanghai and settled him there. It's the Confucian holy city, of course, so it gets all the commerce multipliers--but it was the food that convinced me, as the city is a little short of sources of it, and I'm loathe to turf those maturing cottages in favour of farms.

I should take a moment to comment on a related topic, my economy. If you look at all the screen shots, you may notice my research rate fluctuating a great deal. What I'm doing is taking the notion of a hybrid economy quite literally. On the one hand, the specialists allow me to lower the research slider and generate more gold; on the other hand, unlike a pure SE, I can't really go all the way to 0%. I'm using Eggman's tech-turn guideline of 5-10 turns per tech to determine where the slider should be. Even though he specified that range for pure SEs, it's working out well for me. I adjust the slider when beginning to research each tech, trying if I can to research it in 5 turns while maximizing income. For Education, I needed the help of another GS from Corinth, but as we all know, that's an expensive tech anyway; he took it from 15 to 5 turns at 20% on the slider with about a +50 GPT profit--perfect!.

In the war against Arabia, I captured Mecca, electing to keep it and gaining an Academy there for my trouble. Its countryside will be farmed for eventual science specialists. I continued south along Arabia's west coast:

ALCAlex1330AD_07.jpg


Now I started razing cities. Damascus fell to the torch. It was just too close to English territory, as you can see. The maintenance costs would have been painful, and with so little production (as I suspected, England's borders claimed that mine and forest on the next turn) that it would have taken forever to build a courthouse there. I already had fish from Kufah and the new city of Delphi (SW of Beijing), and I'll get dye from another source, as you'll see.

Shortly thereafter, I finished researching a very important tech:

ALCAlex1330AD_08.jpg


I immediately started building two Caravels, one in Athens, one in Beijing. Time to go meet the distant neighbours...

After I captured and razed Najran (another Arabian city whose ruins are visible in the screenshot below), Saladin was nearly done. I decided to send my Flanking I/Sentry Chariot into English territory to scope out the opposition:

ALCAlex1330AD_09.jpg


Hmmm, Longbows. I'll have to stock up on Catapults. I cancelled my horses-for-furs-and-gold trade with Vicky very early in the round. Trading military resources just didn't sit well with me, regardless of all the Phalanxes I pumped out before Engineering came along. I instead focused on getting some other resources on-line (clams, gems) to trade for her luxury goods. Which I will soon be taking for myself, bwa-ha-ha-ha...

Now, every time I took one of Saladin's cities, I went to see him. Would he cough up a tech or two for peace?

ALCAlex1330AD_10.jpg


Nothin' doin'! I trimmed it down from 3 techs to 2 to 1, and he still wouldn't go for it, no matter how many cities he lost. Frustrating, especially since I didn't want to trade with Vicky, my next victim, and won't have that option anyway once he's gone (remember civs won't trade techs unless they're incontact with at least 2 other ones). Oh well, thanks Optics and its Caravels, I'll soon have contact with the other continent's civs and I should soon be able to tech trade with them. I may still be able to extort techs from Vicky, if she still has any that I want.

Saladin's recalcitrance in that regard had an inevitable result:

ALCAlex1330AD_11.jpg


And Arabia is no more. I kept Baghdad; not only will its revolt end a lot sooner than the one going on there right now, it also gives me access to dye. And I now have a nice little string of Arabian cities across the middle of the continent to act as bulwarks against the English when I attack them.

The northern half of the continent is now entirely Greek:

ALCAlex1330AD_12.jpg


Some things are imminent.

You can see the lighted squares around my two Caravels, the Hermes and the Poseidon. One or both should spot land soon, and then I should be able to tech trade again. I expect to win the circumnavigation race too, since I haven't seen any other Caravels yet.

I also expect to win the Liberalism race. I'm currently 10 turns away from it, and I'll likely choose Astronomy as my free tech for the Observatories (another scientist in my science cities) intercontinental trade, and Galleons.

Victoria dies next. As you saw above, I'm facing Longbows. I will likely take the 10 turns that Liberalism requires to solidify my gains and stock up on Catapults, as I mentioned, as well as some Macemen. Then, with Liberalism obtained, I'll lower the slider, stock up more gold, and upgrade my stack from Axes and Swords to Macemen (which I didn't need against Saladin's pathetic Archers).

My next GP will come out of Athens in 5 turns and has a 61% chance of being a GE, 38% of being a GS. If it's a GS, he'll get settled in Corinth; Athens' base rate of 36 research points/turn at 50% on the slider (where I'd currently break even) doesn't really warrant an Academy, not with the 100% boost from Oxford on the way in Corinth.

If, as seems likely, the next GP is a Great Engineer, however... Okay, I don't want to go counting chickens, but what do I do with him? IIRC, he'll pop techs along the Monarch-Guilds path. Blah. Building Angkor Wat in Sparta doesn't exactly get my tray in the upright and locked position, if ya know what I mean. (Vicky built Chichen Itza, BTW--for all the good it'll do her against my 4 accuracy Cats.) What's coming up on the wonder list? I guess I could go after Music and Notre Dame, the extra happy might be good versus war weariness.

Just watch: we'll all dither over how to use him, and I'll get a GS.

Aside from that, another thing I'd appreciate some advice on is warring against Vicky. You can see from the map that she went city-crazy, and she's got Longbows in all of them. I'll probably raze several since I don't want to be slowed down putting garrisons everywhere. Should I divide my stack in 2? If so, I'll likely need another set of 4 accuracy Cats. Maybe I can get Feudalism and/or Theology from the other continent, run Vassalage or Theocracy for awhile, and build another 4 1-turn-defense-stripping Cats.

What about civics? I don't anticipate using either of Liberalism's "Free" civics right away, if ever. Maybe FR, but only if I need to abandon Representation for PS (war weariness) or US (rush-buying). I guess a lot there will depend on what techs I can snag from the other continent. I'd prefer Vassalage to Theocracy; I'm loving Pacifism, and Vassalage would offset the unit cost to an extent.

Any comments on the hybrid economy? Any tiles/cities you think I should change (cottages to farms or vice-versa)?

Anything else? Fire away!
 
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