Explain this, you empiricists

mdwh, I don't participate in this thread anymore in other ways but as a reader.

It turned into merry-go-round right from the very beginning.
It was fun and it was spinning but hardly offered anything else that I haven't seen before.

But thank you for showing again how irrational all people can be. ;)

EDIT: BTW, if someone really wants to know how I stand in the issue should maybe read couple of my first messages in the thread.
 
It's quite interesting how many people don't understand the ideas of "burden of proof" or "extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims."

my purpose isnt to prove anything, its to ask questions and stimulate thought about something which is a relatively common occurence.

That's not what you said in your opening posts.

My theory about this sort of thing is that, since time is basically an illusion, maybe somewhere deep in the bowels and interstices of our Quantum minds, its occasionally possible for the illusion of the seperateness of past, present and future to be momentarily suspended.

You switched to your current "I know nothing" position after everyone who actually knows what the word "quantum" means called bullfeathers on your meaningless wordsalad. I suppose obscurantism is a (barely measurable) improvement over pseudoscience...
 
I still want punkbass2000 to read my thoughts. Go on, I dare you! :)
 
Pontiuth Pilate said:
You switched to your current "I know nothing" position after everyone who actually knows what the word "quantum" means called bullfeathers on your meaningless wordsalad. I suppose obscurantism is a (barely measurable) improvement over pseudoscience...
Ok, lets look at your 'smoking gun' post again:

My theory about this sort of thing is that, since time is basically an illusion, maybe somewhere deep in the bowels and interstices of our Quantum minds, its occasionally possible for the illusion of the seperateness of past, present and future to be momentarily suspended.
What is it about the words 'theory' and 'maybe' that you have difficulty understanding? Proposing that something might be possible isnt the same as saying something is. Thats the difference between your side and ours in this debate. You guys are excluding all possibilities. You claim absolute knowledge that it can only be coincidence.
 
You claim absolute knowledge that it can only be coincidence.
Not at all: there is no end of unreasonable explanations that we nevertheless admit are possible. However, we claim that the only reasonable explanation is coincidence.
 
Taliesin said:
Not at all: there is no end of unreasonable explanations that we nevertheless admit are possible. However, we claim that the only reasonable explanation is coincidence.
If youre acting as spokeman for the coincidence camp, then its you guys who are changing your tune. Go back and check, but to the best of my recollection, none of you have said that it 'may' be coincidence, youve said that it 'is'.
 
"Is" is shorthand. Our position is that it "may" be coincidence, in the sense that shooting stars "may" be space rocks burning up on re-entry.
 
warpus said:
So, a lot of dreams that are based on nothing concrete end up being just that.. dreams, with no basis in reality.
I know, and others dont.
When men looked up at the sky and wondered if humans could ever fly, they already had evidence that it were possible - they saw other creatures that could fly - birds.
Right, possible for birds to fly. The few who speculated that one day men would fly were ridiculed by the vast majority of people.
When men looked at the moon and wondered whether we could go there, they already had evidence that it exists - they could see it.
I think we can both agree that in order to want to go somewhere, you have to know the place exists.
Speculation is usually triggered by potential evidence. For example, in our case, it seemed as though you could see into the future. This lead you to believe that perhaps such a thing is possible. However, the next step would be to perform tests and collect evidence that it indeed is possible, so that you could discard the most likely explanation that does not violate any currently established theories of how the Universe operates - this theory being that it was just a coincidence.
Ahhh, its a theory? So, in other words, youre saying maybe it was a coincidence? Which means also that maybe it wasnt a coinicidence?

Statement A - "It's possible to see into the future"
Statement B - "It's possible to fly by farting"

You seem to say that statement A is more likely to be true than statement B. How come?
Because Statement B is a joke. A very funny one btw:lol:

I move that they are equally unlikely due to the lack of evidence of both.
So do you think it was a coinicidence, or do you know, or suspect? If now you say you only 'suspect' then after all these pages it appears Ive managed to move the unmovable;)
 
I am still waiting for the "evidence" that an anecdote such as BEs dream event is a "coincidence". As I said earlier, I think that "coincidence " is merely a catch all bucket where empiricists sweep everything they cannot explain and pretend that probability supports them. The bonus they get by establishing anecdotes as coincidence is that all statements to the contrary now have to proven. Which they usually can't.

Coincidence is a holding area for the unexplained that protects the soft underbelly of science.;)
 
Null hypothesis, mmkay? ;)
 
Birdjaguar said:
I am still waiting for the "evidence" that an anecdote such as BEs dream event is a "coincidence". As I said earlier, I think that "coincidence " is merely a catch all bucket where empiricists sweep everything they cannot explain and pretend that probability supports them. The bonus they get by establishing anecdotes as coincidence is that all statements to the contrary now have to proven. Which they usually can't.

Coincidence is a holding area for the unexplained that protects the soft underbelly of science.;)


if you can accept that people can dream about certain events without those dreams being linked to future in any way, then you can easily show that coincidences of like the one of Bozo will happen.

My calculation a few pages back, while obviously using completely fictional numbers and only very basic methods, should give an insight into how it could work..
 
Riffraff said:
if you can accept that people can dream about certain events without those dreams being linked to future in any way, then you can easily show that coincidences of like the one of Bozo will happen.

My calculation a few pages back, while obviously using completely fictional numbers and only very basic methods, should give an insight into how it could work.
I feel no compulsion to link dreams like BEs to future events; I see them as interesting anecdotes. But the math presented as evidence for coincidence is baffling. Any numbers used in such a calulation would have to be completely fictional. There is no real data on dream content that could be used to derive probabilities that would survive any kind of peer review. If I claimed his dream foretold the future and then said "Here's how it could work..." without any real data, would you accept that as proof?
 
Erik Mesoy said:
Null hypothesis, mmkay? ;)
Present your case. Show us how the null hypothosis applies and why it is sufficient to lable Bozo's dream event as coincidence.
 
colontos said:
When did Bill Clinton move to Montreal?
Don't be thick. When I step out my door in the morning and the street is wet, I don't say, "I think it may have rained in the night, while also not discounting the possibility that aliens poured water on the pavement, that water seeped up from the ground, that God ordered a bit of a flood, or that fifty thousand dogs paraded by and piddled while I was sleeping."

I say, "It rained last night."
 
Birdjaguar said:
Present your case. Show us how the null hypothosis applies and why it is sufficient to lable Bozo's dream event as coincidence.

We have already, we've explained why it is the most rational expnation countless, times from a perspective of probability. If you want the reasons simply look back through the thread.

I could bore you with statistical significance, and setting up a null hypothesis and z tests that determine wether there is a significance or that there is no statistical significance, or that a null hypothesis is consistent but I don't want to bore you with the maths.

Suffice to say since we only have 1 anecdotal peice of evidence we can't do this as the data pool is too small and the intangables too large, to do a significant z test we would need at least 30 pieces of data with which to estimate a mean and to have a standard deviation, now if as I suggested way back he took note of every dream he has from now on, and correllates them with real events then maybe we could talk about a test as it is there is no significance to 1 random occurence if weighed merely on the data we are given. Without it we have nothing statistically credible to work with.

What your asking is that we take this singular piece of evidence as a suggestion that it is a prescient event without any other reason to, we simply have to say that the most likely line of reasoning leads us, along with certain probabilities in the scenario, to say that it is most likely coincidence. We do not have enough data to come to any other conclusion.

If we say it is evidence of psychic phenomina, people will inevitably ask what series of events lead us to this conclusion, is Bozo someone who often has such dreams, if so are they accurate, to what degree, how many people also have such dreams and in that pool is there a greater than chance occurence of said events. You see what we have to work with here?

If you were told that an airline was safe because 100 people had flown on 1 flight succesfully you'd say, nonsense right? If someone said that a particular car was safe, because no one had yet crashed in it, but it had only been driven a few hundred times you'd say, yeah right, pull the other one? If someone said, I say that I can read your mind and then told you what you were thinking once, would you say they were psychic? No you'd ask them to do it again. That's all we're asking because otherwise it's just too random to make significant judgements.

This is how probability works, it is the foundation of a framework to investigate any statistical event, without it we're just making guesses and faking reality. I want scientific credibility in paranormal research, just as most credible pranormal researchers do, it's the only way to get science to sit up and take note. Arm waving suggestion should not be taken seriously, because research money is hard to come by, now why this is is the subject of a whole 'nother thread, suffice to say it's not about being blinkered but getting likely positive or negative results not speculations, or yes results that may make a buck sadly.
 
As I said earlier, I think that "coincidence " is merely a catch all bucket where empiricists sweep everything they cannot explain and pretend that probability supports them.

Ultimately, there is no other useful way to work than to assume that anything that can't be proven beyond statistical probability doesn't exist. Otherwise you would be attributing occult significance to every time you flipped a coin 10 times and didn't get 5 tails 5 heads.

We've seen that in this thread, where Bozo's attempt at "generating thoughtful speculation" has just resulted in a lot of Laputian woolgathering & no concrete results. Ironically produced by those who reject the empirical method as insufficient to fully describe the universe - i.e., they haven't described shizzit yet...

Gasp! COINCIDENCE OR CORRELATION? We report you decide....
 
punkbass2000 said:
By telling you what you're thinking.

So what am I thinking of at the time of writing this post?
 
chrisrossi said:
So what am I thinking of at the time of writing this post?
Here's what I hope is a better test, so that he doesn't say something and you deny it...

The following are the names or online pseudonyms of six people, five of which are from a group. Name the odd one out and explain why; this should be easy for anyone who can read my thoughts.
Jidane
Szikszai
Dark Natasha
Strega
Doug Winger
Chris Sawyer

This is question one of two; question two will come after this one has been answered. For now, let's check that we're thinking about the same group.

(if anyone manages to find the answer on Google, please tell me and I'll try to make a better test that's still verifiable.)
 
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