Alternate History Thread III

I agree, silver/NK. The Germanics weren't that adept at waging war in the 1st century, or organized, and if Rome made a significant push all at once, the local tribes could be crushed or made subservient in the same manner as Gaul. IMHO, taking and "pacifying" Germany wouldn't tax Roman resources of the Early (not Late) Empire any more than crushing Judea would.
 
silver 2039 said:
However a Roman fronteir at the Elbe would be much shorther than a Roman fronteir than that of the Rhine. All the Romans would have to do would be fortify the Elbe, and wall off the Jutland and they have a perfectly defendeable area form steppe and Scandnavian invaders.
Click to expand...

it would also be further away from their supply bases and reinforcements, which might very well negate the advantage of a smaller border. Plus they will have to keep all those lovely forests pacified, which might be easier said than done...
 
Disenfrancised said:
it would also be further away from their supply bases and reinforcements, which might very well negate the advantage of a smaller border. Plus they will have to keep all those lovely forests pacified, which might be easier said than done...
Click to expand...

Yes, but the Romans had a long tradition of pacification and slaughter, especially looking at Judea, Gaul, and Hispania. Granted, it took Julius Caesar's genius to fully take Gaul, but if the Early Empire/Late Republic directed significant resources to the task, it could be done.
 
I'm not talking as much about internal rebellions as attacks from the east and the north, to which Germany will be far more exposed than say Gaul.
 
Like I said wall of Jutland and fortify the Elbe. External attack really wouldn't be a problem for them.
 
Firstly, walling everything is a) easier said than done and b) not really an absolute solution. Secondly, are you going to have them "wall" the entire Baltic Coast as well? And even then, there will be some ways to sneak in.

I do agree with NK that the Germans will be considerably weakened; although I wouldn't count on the Slavs neither, who will in this world be caught in between fleeing Germans from the west and fleeing steppe nomads from the east. There is a possibility of various steppe peoples controlling Eastern Europe.
 
das said:
Firstly, walling everything is a) easier said than done and b) not really an absolute solution. Secondly, are you going to have them "wall" the entire Baltic Coast as well? And even then, there will be some ways to sneak in.

I do agree with NK that the Germans will be considerably weakened; although I wouldn't count on the Slavs neither, who will in this world be caught in between fleeing Germans from the west and fleeing steppe nomads from the east. There is a possibility of various steppe peoples controlling Eastern Europe.
Click to expand...

It worked on the Rhine. And, forgive me, das, but if you look at a map, the Elbe frontier has no Baltic Coast; you'd have to go to the Oder or the Vistula for that to be a significant problem. The Black Sea coast, with the Germans crushed, has no real threats until the 8th century when the Vikings waltz onto the world stage.

There are so many good trade routes going through Germania--the Rhine and its tributaries are foremost, of course, that there really isn't a barrier to settling it beyond trees, and the Romans cut forests with a vengeance.

As for the Slavs, it's almost certain that with their enemies crushed, they'll rise to prominence. Steppe empires are only temporary, and with the Roman penchant for assimilation rather than complete displacement, the Germans won't be fleeing in much more vast numbers than they already were, and this could only lead to a Slavic eastern Europe.
 
Sorry, mixed my German rivers... But the Elbe frontier is even harder to defend, the Romans will also have to conquer considerable territories in Dacia, and the North Sea is not much better than the Baltic one. And I also still think it would take too much resources, weakening the Roman Empire elsewhere (for one thing, I still am sceptical about maintaining a presence in Britain - if only because it never did particularily fit in the Roman position properly. In this world it will be even worse in that regard, and though ofcourse the Celtic raids (caused in turn by an early Germanic invasion - fleeing west across the sea is also an option, Thlayli) will force the Romans to launch occasional invasions, but I can't imagine a trully safe Roman Britannia without the conquest of most of northern Europe, not a feat the Romans seem to be capable of).
 
*raises eyebrow*

The Romans hardly "had" to conquer territory in Dacia. They might have to secure Marcomannia to make sure no one could slip around the Elbe, but that's not a very long frontier by any stretch of the imagination, and, like I said, the Romans had a tendency to assimilate, not drive out, other peoples.
 
das said:
Trees or no trees, IMHO it was simply impossible to succesfully defend and integrate Germany - simply not worth the effort, IMHO. Rome was quite overstretched even without Germany.
Click to expand...
That never stopped them, really. It wouldn't be altogether much worse than Gaul. The actual reason why they stopped where they did is because of a rather opportunistic individual - Arminius. Prior to his betrayal of Rome, assimilation east of the Rhine was already proceeding apace. Had someone not like him arisen (particularly bad since he knew Roman methodology and manner, having been trained by them), it is likely the Romans would simply have kept on going, because the Germans are people just like any other and the Romans really did bring quite tangible benefits. That's why all the barbarian tribes kept raiding into the Empire later anyway; they wanted what it had without its control. Rome basically lost its nerve after Teutoburg.

Had they not, or had they won the battle (or done better), that combined with applied military force would've put down the disorganized Germans much the same as it did the Gauls and pretty much everybody else they faced.

I'm pretty much in agreement with silver, NK, and Thlayli.
 
I never did claim that they wouldn't be able to CONQUER Germany - I am however very sceptical about their ability to keep it in their hands.

And sorry, NK, Marcomannia was what I meant. I don't know too much about this time period anyway (Xen does, but he doesn't come here too often lately and we already know what side he will take ;) ).

EDIT: Symphony, when I first noticed your avatar I thought I was hallucinating. Although, as long as its not Azale with a PRC flag, I suppose the fabric of reality and my sanity still stand a chance at surviving.
 
:eek: I thought it was just me about his avatar :cry:

I pretty much agree with everyone but das :)
 
das said:
EDIT: Symphony, when I first noticed your avatar I thought I was hallucinating. Although, as long as its not Azale with a PRC flag, I suppose the fabric of reality and my sanity still stand a chance at surviving.
Click to expand...

:lol: :lol:

I was having the same thoughts das.

Is somebody fleshing out an actual timeline with all of this Roman talk?
 
Thlayli said:
(As an added bonus, the ancestors of the Saxons will be slaughtered or displaced, ensuring the future of a Romano-Briton or Romano-Welsh Britain. The Angles might flee north into Denmark, depending on Roman penetration.)
Click to expand...

Bonus? sounds like a nightmare scenario to me
 
Ah, btw, Azale, do you still want to mod an early 20th century althist? Because I wrote one while you were gone.
 
Wow, yes, yes I do. I think I was just telling NK yesterday how I would like a das PoD but was afraid to ask you since you were so busy :p
 
 
I've actually been considering on modding again (though im not really sure, especially with school just beginning). I might be interested in doing something of yours das. I need something relatively simple, but complex at the same time. Having 12 German NPCs isn't good for one's health or workload :p

If Azale mods that, France is MEINEN.
 
Aww man, I have to mod that? I would much rather play it :p

It needs trade centers, stats, and a complete timeline compaction I thinks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Ryansinbela
Alternate legacy paths
Replies
0
Views
188
Ryansinbela
Ryansinbela
G
Sullla's AI Survivor Season Three Alternate Histories
2 3 4
Replies
63
Views
6K
Genghis the Barbarian
G
F
The perfect army
Replies
5
Views
2K
Fins
F
M
Mod GAP Leaders
Replies
10
Views
1K
Monene
M
K
Why are combat and waging war so tedious?
Replies
10
Views
711
Theov
Theov
Back
Top Bottom