Godotnut's Guide to Totally Peaceful Deity Cultural Victory

This article has been the most useful of all I read so far.

I've played since Avalon Hill Civilization board game and always was able to win at the highest levels. My last Civ 3 game had me at 40,000 points and controlling 100+ cities but get to Civ 4 and umpteen times getting to 1300 AD at diety level and being at best in the middle of the score pack was getting me to the point of chucking it all in the bin.

I'm a peacenik player and only warred if they started it or I got caught stealing technology
They certainly fixed the problem of 'too many cities' errors from the older games. Was at 255 cities on the map from about 800BC onward in that last Civ 3 game.

Thanks for the help godonut. Maybe you'll see me in the HOF later.. har har

but get to Civ 4 and umpteen times getting to 1300 AD at diety level and being at best in the middle of the score pack was getting me to the point of chucking it all in the bin.

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Don't chuck your cultural Deity game in the bin if you are in the middle of the score pack.

I'm often in last place in score until I win in these kind of games, though even so, you can manage a respectable 40,000+ points for the victory (not that I pay any real attention to Civ4's ridiculous, war-monger-favoring score system).

Hi godotnut, maybe you will find the time to clarify my poor understanding of the Universal Suffrage thing.

As stated before, you need 3 gold per hammer bought. That's a lot of money! Where do you get the money from?
My current understanding is that you have 3 different phases in you game as far as the bars are concerned, you first try to be at 100% science (I mean, as high as possible). Then, when you have secured Liberalism and Music (sometimes also PrintP) you go to 100% gold to rush-buy Cathedrals. And when almost all of them are built, you finally change to 100% culture. Is that correct?

How many hammers do you rush-buy in your games?
Do you also rush-buy temples?
Would you be so kind as to provide some guidelines about the number of turns you spend in each phase?
Isn't all that money better spent raising the bar (any of them) from 90% to 100%?


When I follow your start (Pyramids and trying to get 2 GEng) I feel I don't tech fast enough, because of the lack of early Academy in the capital. It gets better after GLib is built, but sometimes research stagnates in the middle of Alph when I grab my 4th or 5th city too soon (when there's still land available!).

Also, when I get a monopoly on a tech, I usually trade it around for whatever tech I can get. Would it be better to gift it away? Or maybe to sell it for money instead of techs that are out of the critical path?

Lots of questions here!

jesusin:

Not a lot of time, but here's a start:

I don't know exactly how many hammers I buy, but it's a lot. I may have built one or two major religious buildings before the buying phase, but I buy all but the last two or three major religious buildings. That's typically around 9-12 purchased buildings.

Yes, I also buy most of my temples. Also the Hermitage.

3 gold / hammer may sound like a lot, but with both bars at zero, I'm usually pulling in around 260-360 gold / turn. So that's approximately 110 extra hammers / turn to focus on my three cities -- not too shabby. Then add in the stone, marble, or copper bonus (when you got 'em) and you're talking a much better exchange rate. Buying banks and markets early really pays off too.

Think of the buying stage as a way to focus money (and, hence, hammers) completely into the most important thing: getting up those buildings. And yes, they are worth it. Four major religious buildings in each city (for example) equals plus 200% culture -- you're literally TRIPLING your base culture output.

As far as teching goes, it doesn't matter if you fall a little behind the AI overall when building the Pyramids, as long as you beat them to alphabet. If you do that, you can trade for all or most of the techs that you are behind in, essentially starting from scratch again (and soon now to have the Great Library and academies).

NEVER trade for tech that are not on the way to getting either a) liberalism, b) nationalism (Hermitage) c) music (free artist), or d) printing press (plus two gold per town). Everything else is pretty useless, except maybe grocers for health.

So yes, trade all extra techs that you can't trade for vital techs away for money (if possible) or gift teching to keep 'em happy. The exception to this may be if one AI is really pulling ahead and you fear gift-teching them will let them build the spaceship too fast.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

godotnut said:

Don't chuck your cultural Deity game in the bin if you are in the middle of the score pack.
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Guess I better dust off the Japanese game where I had made it to Universal Sufferage and had the captitol producing 66 culture per turn without any religious buildings.

Guess I better dust off the Japanese game where I had made it to Universal Sufferage and had the captitol producing 66 culture per turn without any religious buildings.

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Maybe, but if you teched all the way to universal suffrage, you may have gone too far, wasting time so that the AI launches the ship before you get the culture points. That is, if playing Deity or Immortal. Probably not a problem on lower levels.

I never tech past printing press when playing Deity.

Thank you for your answers, godotnut.
I was resisting to believe that buying the cathedrals was a good idea, but now I think I understand why.

I was comparing your strategy to my best documented cultural games: GOTM7 and GOTM8. In both I had already built half of the cathedrals by the time I discovered Liberalism. So basically I was in the point were you stop buying (you don't buy the last cathedral in each city). At that point it is better to have 100% culture and wait for the last cathedral to be completed naturally than have 0% culture a few turns, buy the last cathedral and then go 100% culture.

Now, both GOTM7 and GOTM8 are low difficulty levels compared to Deity, so I had had the oportunity to found religions early and I had spread them much sooner than you could have done in a deity game. Also I suspect that my tech pace is quite slow (16 or 14 turns to discover Education). In a deity game (late religions) played by a better player (faster tech pace) Liberalism should arrive before the first cathedral is built. In that situation, buying the cathedrals is best.

I hope my reasonings can provide someone a better understanding of the game. Your guide definitely does.

Also I suspect that my tech pace is quite slow (16 or 14 turns to discover Education). In a deity game (late religions) played by a better player (faster tech pace) Liberalism should arrive before the first cathedral is built. In that situation, buying the cathedrals is best.

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That's it exactly. In a decent Deity cultural game, I typically get liberalism around 200AD or so. It's impossible to have many (if any) major religious buildings up at that point.

Another question has sprung. I think it is quite relevant.
Should you pile your major religious buildings or should you spread them?

Let’s imagine a 6 cities cultural game, normal speed, standard map. You are philosophical, you have already added 5 superartists and you estimate that you will have 7 cultural bombs by the end of the game. Your legendary cities produce 180, 140 and 120 culture per turn. You have spread 3 religions to all your cities. You are planning where to put your 6 major religious buildings and your Hermitage. Taking Free Speech into consideration, you could have culture multipliers (3 3 4). Or (2.5 3,5 4). Or (4,5 2,5 3)… Which is best? (Please don’t be too touchy with the figures, it is just an example).

My usual way to go is probably inefficient, since it is an intuitive decision, not a calculated one. I would plan to use all my culture bombs in the worst city. Since it will have to reach a lower level of culture on its own, it would be the city with the worst multiplier. Now, I wouldn’t dare to use the better multiplier in the best city, for fear of wasting culture if it reaches legendary long before the others do. So I would typically go for (3,5 4 2,5), 3 cathedrals in the first city, 2 and Hermitage in the second, 1 single cathedral in the third one. I would take production into account, so if the third city has low production I would 99% choose (3,5 4 2,5). Now, 100+ turns later, I find that the best way to use my culture bombs so that the three cities reach legendary status in the same turn is not to add all of them to the third city, but to add 4 to the third city, 1 to the first one and 2 to the second one. That makes me think that my plan “First city stands on its own, second one needs multipliers, third one will do with bombs” was not that efficient.

My current feeling is that you should apply the best multiplier to the best city, so as to maximize total culture output. I have yet to try that. It would lead to (4,5 3,5 2) multipliers, being purist. But maybe it should be softened somewhat, so that all three reach legendary status at the same time.

What do you think? If you are able to find a “magic formula” to take this decision, I think it would be a nice addition to the guide.

Just wanted to say thanks for the guide. I'd beaten prince with culture just spamming artists, and was starting to try to refine things like research order, but the cottage spamming and rushing for pyramids and alphabet will help a lot. (I'd been resisting turning off barbarians, and might keep trying with them on just to see how high I can get, but I'm also tempted to just go with this and work my way up to deity.) Anyway, thanks.

@jesusin:

I don't think there is an easy answer to your question as a whole. I've struggled with this too, and since each game has so many variables, it's hard to come up with a perfect formula (at least for me--I'm sure somebody with a better grasp of math could do it).

Generally speaking, I think of it much the way I think you are describing. My best culture city gets multipliers until I anticipate it will be able to go legendary without any culture bombs. I try to pack my culture bombs mostly in one city to take advantage of the multipliers.

But the with last few Deity games for me on a standard map, it's only been a question of the Hermitage, as I was able to found nine cities without too much problem using Quecha. I often have to use my Hermitage in my second best city in these situations, as placing it in my best city would be too much for the artists to compensate for.

Godotnut-
thanks for the great thread. I have a question about military--do you build units just to get your count up (I assume you're lost if attacked whether u build them or not) or do you just skip it?

ungy said:

Godotnut-
thanks for the great thread. I have a question about military--do you build units just to get your count up (I assume you're lost if attacked whether u build them or not) or do you just skip it?

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It depends. If I am playing a HOF game with opponents of my choice, I would probably skip it, but if playing a GOTM game with warmongers nearby, I would probably try to make some kind of early show of force, until open borders, trades, and gift techs work their diplomatic magic.

Thanks Godotnut for the excellent thread! I have a couple of questions to ask you regarding my personal experience I play Deity/Standard map/Pangea/Marathon speed on Warlord (is this strategy valid for Warlord or just Vanilla?)

That's it exactly. In a decent Deity cultural game, I typically get liberalism around 200AD or so. It's impossible to have many (if any) major religious buildings up at that point.

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How do you achieved this...what’s your research path after Alphabet. I usually go for Literature to build GL with my first GE from the Pyramids. Where do you build GL capital or GP farm? I know Literature is not a good trade for AI but I don’t want to miss out on the GL for research boost and GS point.

After I build the GL my GE point’s gets deluded (regardless of being in Capital or second city 2 GS vs 1 GE) and I can never get a second GE. With my first GS I build an Academy in the Capital…now how many GS to you usually go for before getting GA. I get 3 GS one in every cultural city and usually manage 4 to 6 GA in a game before a Diplomat vote or spaceship victory. So that’s 8 to 10 GP per game so far (no free GP, never get to Music first or Liberalism).

I have a hard time establishing a GP farm do to lack of space/food resources and balancing GP VS cottage growth) Second city is usually an hybrid GP farm/cottage for cultural. I try to settle in a place that I can spawn a settler ASP wile grabbing available resources near fresh water…but this is usually hard. Third city is cottage plus any food resources I can get that are left.

Also...do you build Monasteries during your buying phase or earlyer since there are usaly cheaper then temple and also provide a +2 culture...What's your a tipical list of buildings in one of your culture city (granary, library, courthouse, aquaduc, market, bank, temple, Cathedrale etc) do you build forge

I think my biggest problem is getting to Liberalism sooner (research path) to have flex time for the buying phase before switching to culture only and GP production, I pretty good at managing peace though.

Lots of questions I know

First, great strat. I've played it many times now, and have won multiple deity victories, always before 1600.

Second, I would disagree with the notion that the great artist farm and cultural city should be distinct. The sistine chapel, notre dame, taj mahal, etc. all provide a massive amount of culture, as well as great artist points. It would be a waste to have the ga points, and the cultural bonus (which seems to double after some period of time?) to be split.

It is also incredibly difficult to find 3 decent cities. INCREDIBLY. The only way I've managed is early-game war mongering with the Inca. [aside: I suppose it would be possible with a non-war strat, but you'd have to get lucky with cultural boundaries setting off a peninsula. Even then, you'd have to deal with constant barb raids. At least in warlords, the barbs come VICIOUSLY, 4-5 archers at a time, and you would need a multiple warrior or archer garrison to have any chance (especially if you want to keep your improvements)]

Hoping for 3 great culture cities, PLUS a great artist farm, is just a little too much. Usually, any cities beyond my 3 cultural cities are on the tip of some rocky outcropping, or in the desert, where the ai does not as aggressively settle.

again, great strat. the only one i've been able to use to win on deity, in fact, without gaming the settings. [i still lose quite often, even with this strat, largely because i refuse non-random opponnets. and if you're set down next to montezuma or alexander, it's pretty much game over on deity. ]

PS One last thought: don't think it's a good idea to stick woodenly to a particular tech path. Obviously, bronze working is no go if you have a capital with a bunch of flood plains. And with inca, i've found mining/bronze working are not as important, since there is no need for a (double) settler chop -- you're giong to steal your cities, and becuase you do not start with mining. (which makes the bronze working path much more time consuming)

The key thing is that you not branch out to too many different early techs. On deity level, happiness will be a severe early game constraint, so as long as you have 2-3 good tiles per city, that's enough teching in the early game.

@Kelvenor:

I don't have an exact tech path after alphabet. Conditions vary. Depending on the game, I may or may not go for music and the great artist, for example (depending on if I think I can get it); or if I don't think I will have enough religions spread naturally to win, I will sometimes prioritize divine right for Islam in an effort to save the game. Also, great people can affect this, so it's hard to say precisely. Often, I head directly to liberalism using the shortest path possible.

Regarding the Great Library, I actually no longer think building it is a good idea. The loss of artists isn't worth the tech payoff, and I've found that I can keep up pretty well with a good start and LOTS of early cottages.

Monasteries, though, do indeed get built fairly early in the three cultural cities. They are optional in the others.

Many Thanks Godonut!!!

Sorry about the GS question read your original post a while back.

I've used your strategy on lower setting (emperor and Immortal) and it work wonders (not pun intended ) I think i got used to a slow build phased and buying...Deity is much faster.

About what year do you take your culture and science sliders to 0 so you can max gold income?

Thanks,

SsS:

I don't make the cut-off point based upon year, but rather upon when I finish teching to Printing Press (usually, sometimes even earlier--like right after liberalism).

Two tricks about generating Great People.

Hi Godotnut, I thought about opening new threads for these tricks, since I haven’t found anything about them in the forums, but they seem to fit a cultural victory and I think they will get more visibility here ;-). If you don’t agree just tell me so and I will remove them from your thread.

Trick1: Starvation
Say you really would like to get an additional GP from your GPfarm. The game is about to end. You assign 1 more specialist, running at –2 fpt until the food box is empty, but it is not enough. What do you do then? Reassign the citizen to the fields? Leave it as a specialist and let him starve?
You know, if you have no food in the box and –1fpt you’ll lose 1 pop by the next turn. Most interestingly, if you have no food in the box and –1000fpt you’ll lose 1 pop by the next turn. Just the same. So, what you do is assign each and every citizen to specialist. By the next turn, you will have lost 1 pop, but you will have shaved off a couple of turns towards the next GP generation.

Trick2: Mix and get a 100% probability (unverified)
Say you are not running Caste System. You want lots of Great Artist and you have a theater, so you have patiently used 2 artist specialists for some time. The GP is about to be born the very next turn and it has a 100% probability of being an artist. Now, if you let it be that way, you will start from scratch the next GP. You wish a theater permitted more than 2 artist specialists, don’t you?
Now, let’s assume that the game uses the probability you see the previous turn, not the probability calculated after all contributors in the last turn have been computed (unverified!). Then, what you do is to put 2 scientists in the library slot and one priest in the temple slot, in addition to the two artists. An artist is born the next turn. In addition, you have a large overflow of GPP. And no matter who contributed to this overflow, the overflow doesn’t favor any type of GP. So the turn the GP is born you reassign the people so that only the 2 artists are left as specialists. The net effect is that, for one simple turn, you had 5 artist slots instead of 2.
Please, use at your own risk. It has worked for me 3 times out of 3, but it might happen that the last turn contributions are taken into account and another type of GP be born. If that happened, then it is not a neat trick but a stupid last minute pool pollution. I would be very thankful if everybody reported their experience with this trick (or if anyone just looked into the code).

Edited: It doesn't work, see 3 posts below.